Counties and Metropolitan Districts in England

Schedule 1 – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 6th July 1972.

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Photo of Mr Michael Fidler Mr Michael Fidler , Bury and Radcliffe 12:00 am, 6th July 1972

I beg to move Amendment No. 1020, in page 192, column 2, leave out lines 36 to 41 and insert: 'The county borough of Bury;In the administrative county of Lancaster—the Boroughs of Prestwich and Radcliffe;in the borough of Heywood, so much of the Birtle and Ashworth ward as lies west of the line for the time being of the centre of the Cheesden Brook and so much of the Heap Bridge ward as lies west of the boundary referred to in paragraph 3AA of Part III of this Schedule; the urban districts of Tottington and Whitefield'.

Photo of Mr Selwyn Lloyd Mr Selwyn Lloyd , Wirral

With this Amendment we are to take the following:

Amendment No. 444, in page 192, leave out line 16 and insert: 'that part of the ward in Merseyside that lies to the south side of the road A.580'.

Amendment No. 474, in line 17, leave out 'except the wards in Cheshire'.

Amendment No. 7, in line 28, after 'Horwich', insert: 'including the curtilages of the necessary land comprising the Rivington and Blackrod Grammar School and the new buildings to be erected thereon for the new comprehensive school'.

Amendment No. 302, in page 192, leave out lines 30 to 34.

Amendment No. 9, in line 41, leave out 'Whitefield and Whitworth' and insert 'and Whitefield'.

Amendment No. 305, in line 41, leave out 'Whitworth'.

Amendment No. 10, in page 192, leave out lines 42 and 43.

Amendment No. 1021, in line 43, column 2, at end insert: 'District (cc)The county borough of Rochdale;In the administrative county of Lancaster—the borough of Middleton;the borough of Heywood, except the areas in district (c);the urban districts of Little-borough, Milnrow and Wardle'.

As Amendments to proposed Amendment No. 1021: (a), leave out line 4.

(b), line 5, leave out 'except the areas in district (c)'.

Amendment No. 1022, in page 193, column 2, leave out line 10.

Amendment No. 11, in page 193, leave out lines 31 and 32.

Amendment No. 445, in page 194, line 16, leave out 'South ward' and insert: 'that part of the South ward which lies on the southern side of the road A.580'.

Amendment No. 475, in page 199, leave out lines 30 and 31.

Amendment No. 303, in page 203, leave out from line 45 to line 3 on page 204.

Amendment No. 1043, in page 204, line 1, leave out from 'Brook' to end of line 3 and insert: 'to the end of the Reservoir Dam, thence to Blackburn Road north of Moss Cottages and thence north-eastwards to the ward boundary'.

Amendment No. 1023, in line 3, at end insert: '3AA. The boundary dividing the Heap Bridge ward of the borough of Heywood referred to in Part I of this Schedule shall be such as the Secretary of State may by order determine on or near the general line of the western boundaries of Ordnance Survey parcels 1605, 1800, 2488, 2788, 2769 and 3557, the northern side of Bury Old Road, Moss Hall Road to Brook Cottage and thence westwards to the boundary of the borough'.

Photo of Nicholas Winterton Nicholas Winterton , Macclesfield

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I ask whether you will allow Divisions on individual Amendments within the group? It seems to me that the Amendments are grouped rather queerly and that some of them cannot relate to others in the group. If we are to be allowed to vote on only one Amendment, that will be most unfortunate for those hon. Members who have tabled Amendments in this group.

Photo of Mr Selwyn Lloyd Mr Selwyn Lloyd , Wirral

I understand, and to some extent sympathise with, the hon. Gentleman's difficulty. It has been difficult to group this series of Amendments in a manner convenient to the House. When we last dealt with this matter the Amendments were grouped even more comprehensively. At least today we have split the ones dealing with this area into three groups. That has been done by agreement, and I shall consider the question of Divisions as we go along.

Photo of Mr Michael Fidler Mr Michael Fidler , Bury and Radcliffe

What I am proposing is that what was originally put forward by my right hon. Friend as District (c) of the Greater Manchester Metropolitan County 12 should be divided into two, one district based on Bury, in which would be Prestwich, Whitefield, Radcliffe, and Tottington and the four wards of Ramsbottom as in the original proposal, and the other based on Rochdale and associated with it Middleton, Milnrow, Wardle and Littleborough. The hon. Member for Heywood and Royton (Mr. Joel Barnett) will take pleasure from the fact that I have excluded Whitworth from my Amendments.

I offer apologies on behalf of the hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. McCann), who is not with us today. Unfortunately he has been ill for a long time. I am sure that the House will wish to extend to him its best wishes for a speedy recovery and return to our midst. It is with his authority that I speak to the Amendments, and I have a letter written by him only 48 hours ago expressing support for what I am putting forward. I hope that the Minister will achieve his own aim and desire by accepting the four Amendments in my name and the names of the hon. Members for Rochdale and Middleton and Prestwich (Mr. Haselhurst).

This is a special case—indeed, unique. By accepting it the Minister would not create any precedent for change elsewhere, since there are so many special things that apply in this area alone which call for exceptional treatment.

First, I am not proposing any diminution in the size of the area or population of the Metropolitan district or the county itself. I accept the overall Greater Manchester Metropolitan County proposals. I am simply proposing the separation of proposed District 12 (c) into its two natural separate and distinct districts, and by adding it to the non-county borough of Middleton it will make a group with a total population of 400,000 which splits nicely and conveniently into two separate districts of about 200,000 each.

I remind my right hon. Friend that there are proposed districts in certain parts of the country well below that figure. For example, on Tyneside there is one of 177,000. It means taking Middleton out of District (f) which is based on Oldham, but it leaves that district with a population of more than 225,000, which is completely viable for all the purposes of this part of the Bill.

District (c) is one of the few in the country, and the only one in the Greater Manchester Metropolitan County, which includes two existing county boroughs. At present nine districts are proposed. Of these, six have only one county borough, two have no county boroughs at all, and only one of the nine, District (c) is proposed to have two county boroughs in it; namely, Bury and Rochdale.

I should have liked to have included the whole of Ramsbottom in the proposed District (c). I know the strength of local feeling, and I should like to pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Rossendale (Mr. Bray), who also has tried very hard to secure the reunification of all six wards of Ramsbottom. We have both tried to do this. The only difference between us is that he wishes to see the whole of Ramsbottom in the Lancashire area, whereas I wish to see it all united but included in District (c) of the Greater Manchester area. But at least the Amendment leaves the four wards of Central, East, South and West Ramsbottom, which look to Bury as their centre, as the Minister has included them in the Bill.

The Amendment brings in Middleton. My hon. Friend the Member for Middleton and Prestwich will no doubt deal in detail with what is part of his constituency. It is enough for me to say that the Middleton non-county borough has gone on record as desiring to be grouped with Rochdale with which it has a community of interest, provided that Rochdale is split from Bury with which it has no such community of interest. This very fact is another indication that Bury and Rochdale are different entities.

I have here a letter from the town clerk of Middleton in which he said that the Council recommend the Government to include Middleton in a Metropolitan District including Rochdale and Heywood and certain outlying Urban Districts but separated from Bury as indicated in the above minutes (these minutes referring to a Metropolitan District including Rochdale and Heywood and certain outlying Urban Districts provided always that the Government do in fact divide the proposed Metropolitan District 12(f))…into two parts.

Photo of Mr James Lamond Mr James Lamond , Oldham East

What is the date of that decision and of that letter?

Photo of Mr Michael Fidler Mr Michael Fidler , Bury and Radcliffe

The hon. Gentleman will accept that I am quoting evidence. I should be glad to supply it in full. The letter was sent in November, 1971, and was followed by a letter in December from that Middleton authority to the town clerk of Bury. I have a copy. It was dated 14th December and it indicated that Middleton had decided to approve its inclusion in District 12(f) because the Local Government Bill had not divided Metropolitan District 12(c) into two parts. Clearly, Middleton would wish to be with Rochdale in District (c) if District (c) is split on the lines I have endeavoured to indicate.

The case submitted by the Bury local authority, and an identical case submitted by the Rochdale local authority, early last year and since then, set out a tremendous number of reasons as to why it was imperative that proposed district (c) be split into two parts. I shall not burden the House with the whole case, because I want to be brief. But the town clerk of Bury refers to paragraph 8 of the White Paper, which states: Local authority areas should be related to areas within which people have a common interest—through living in a recognisable community, through the links of employment, shopping or social activities, or through history or tradition. Local boundaries, the allocation of responsibilities and the system as a whole should be understood and accepted as sensible by electors, by members and by officers. The case is made as I hope to prove, that on all grounds, those cited in that statement, it is absolutely imperative that the proposed district be split in two on the lines I have indicated, for reasons of social geography, local trade interests, traditions, and many others to which I shall refer.

But equally, the geographical location of the administrative centres of these two new districts would be ideal. The one based on Bury could be served by the Bury town hall, which was opened by Her Majesty the Queen in 1954. It was specially built to cater for a larger area than Bury alone, but one based on Bury. It is right in the heart of the Bury based group.

On the other hand, Rochdale town hall is a building of unique architectural structure and is equally ideally situated geographically to administer the new proposed district based on Rochdale. Acceptance of the Amendment would avoid the scrapping of both buildings and the building of some new town hall in a no-man's land between the two districts. I have mentioned the populations which the Amendments will allow for. Broadly speaking, the two new districts would be each of about 200,000 population.

It is important to know what the travel patterns are. There are no east-west travel links whatever. They are all north-south. Here the details of the rail lines and the Selnec services which are available are important because all the railway lines are exclusively north-south. They run from Manchester to Bury and further north, or from Manchester to Rochdale and further north, the line between Bury and Rochdale being closed. The proposed M66 Bury easterly by-pass will ring Bury, going from north Bury down to Manchester.

Regarding trade and commerce, the Bury and District Chamber of Commerce has commented to me that it is strongly united as to why it is essential that the Bury-based district be separated from the Rochdale-based district. The Chamber of Commerce says: There is virtually no contact in industry or communications between Bury and Rochdale…Industry draws little labour from the Rochdale area, or vice versa. Industrial rates of pay differ for similar industries between the Rochdale area and the Bury and District area. The Chamber of Commerce points out that there are many compelling reasons for two completely separate districts.

4.15 p.m.

I have had a communication from the clerk to the magistrates speaking for the magistrates and the Bury and District Law Society, all of whom make it clear that the arrangements made for the magistrates and judiciary clearly indicate that Bury and Rochdale are two separate entities and ought to remain so.

Clearly, we have two friendly but different boroughs, with different areas, traditions, local organisations and football and other sports clubs. Apart from the amateur football clubs involved, Rochdale has its fine club in one of the English leagues, which is supported by the Rochdale-based population, just as Bury has its professional team in the Football League, supported by the Bury-based population. Both areas have their own Government offices. Even geographically, the two areas are physically separated by a high ridge of land and a no-man's-land between the two.

The Minister's proposals also throw up problems of local democracy and equality of representation. There have been meetings to decide what kind of wards should be established and the local councillors to be elected both for the districts and for the metropolitan county. Meetings have shown that as it stands at present, the average number of voters per representative from Bury/Rochdale to the Great Manchester Metropolitan County will be 21,500, far in excess of any of the eight other districts in the Greater Manchester metropolitan county. From the Bury area alone, 23,930 voters per representative is the figure, compared with others which go as low as 16,500 per representative. It is no wonder that the town clerk was obliged to inform the Secretary of State that these variations could have been avoided if the districts had been split into two, one based on Bury and the other based on Rochdale.

Finally, the really vital new factor is expert opinion which has come from the Department of the Environment itself. I have a copy of the strategic plan for the North-West. The SPNW is a report which was published and released early this year, and hon. Members may obtain copies. The North-West strategic planning team was set up by the Department of the Environment under the director of strategic planning, Mr. A. G. Powell, the Assistant Chief Planner of the Department of the Environment. The report shows clearly two separate districts, one based on Bury and one based on Rochdale. It must be of tremendous importance to the whole House that this completely independent body of professionals of the Department feels that Bury and Rochdale, together with their surrounding districts, form naturally independent units: the planning district No. 30, of Bury, Rams bottom, Tottington, Radcliffe, Whitefield, Prestwich and Heywood, and planning district No. 31, of Rochdale, Whitworth, Wardle, Littleborough and Milnrow. These should not be amalgamated into one administrative unit.

Photo of Hon. John Silkin Hon. John Silkin , Deptford

Will the hon. Gentleman give the date of that publication?

Photo of Mr Michael Fidler Mr Michael Fidler , Bury and Radcliffe

The date is December, 1971. It was made available in the early months of this year. It is a very up-to-date report.

It is no wonder that the town clerk of Bury should write to me referring to these Amendments, to say: An informal meeting of representatives of the Councils of Bury, Prestwich, Radcliffe, Tottington and Whitefield was held recently to discuss this matter. They considered that in the interest of good local government in the area it is imperative that your amendment succeeds. This then is the strength of local feeling—I emphasise that—of all parties in the area, united in wishing to see these Amendments succeed. I advise my hon. Friends and hon. Members of the Opposition that the leaders of the Labour groups of Bury and Rochdale Councils, which are both now Labour-controlled, support these Amendments and hope that they will succeed. If the local representatives whom the Minister met early last year were not unanimous then, they are certainly unanimous nowand are united in this demand. The people, the local authorities, the officers, Members of Parliament, the magistrates, the Chamber of Commerce, the Law Society and all parties in the area concerned are convinced that the aims and purposes of the Bill will be met by accepting the Amendments. Each of the two areas, one based on Bury and one based on Rochdale, will be fully viable and capable of administering all the services proposed for the district.

I beg of the Minister not to proceed with a shotgun marriage, creating a "Botchdale". It is not without interest that one of the local authorities, I believe Prestwich, held a competition to find a new name for the district. The result was Bury-Rochdale, or Rochdale-Bury, thus indicating the impossibility of linking the two together in any suitable form.

I have been working on the Amendment for more than a year. I first brought it to the notice of the Minister in February of last year, following the issue of the White Paper. I have been involved with this matter for the last 15 years or more, especially in 1957–58 as mayor of Prestwich, and as a former chairman of the local government reorganisation committee.

I was born in the area and I have lived there all my life. I have the deep passionate conviction that my Amendment is right, regardless of any party political considerations. It is a fair, sensible and practical proposal. I should like to pay tribute to the hon. Member for Widnes (Mr. Oakes) and my hon. Friend the Member for Cannock (Mr. Cormack) for their support when the needs of the district were referred to in Committee. I particularly pay tribute to the hon. Member for Widnes, who was the Opposition spokesman in Committee and who made such effective arguments in support of the plan which, broadly speaking, lies within these Amendments. He said in Committee: I hope the Committee have noted that my hon. Friend the Member for Rochdale (Mr. McCann) and the hon. Member for Bury and Radcliffe (Mr. Fidler)—two hon. Members on opposite sides politically, neither on the Committee although both spoke on Second Reading…unite on the matter of the metropolitan district proposed in the Bill which seeks to unite two entirely different places, the County Borough of Bury and the County Borough of Rochdale.…Knowing the area, and coming from Lancashire, I know perfectly well that there is little, if any, community of interest between the two great county boroughs, or their people.The link-up by shotgun marriage between Bury and Rochdale is not acceptable to the hon. Members who represent those constituencies; nor is it acceptable to either of the councils, to the officers or to the people of the area. Consequently, the Amendment, which I put down on behalf of two hon. Members who are not members of the Committee, and whose arguments I fully support knowing the area as I do, is to divide that metropolitan district into two perfectly good metropolitan districts, one based on the County Borough of Bury and the other on the County Borough of Rochdale. I also extend my thanks to the right hon. Member for Deptford (Mr. John Silkin), who led the Opposition in the Committee, and who was kind enough to endorse the remarks of the hon. Member for Widnes. He said: I should like to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Widnes (Mr. Oakes), the hon. Member for Cannock (Mr. Cormack) and the hon. Member for Northants, South (Mr. Arthur Jones) by saying this. I hope the Minister is listening to the points that are being made, and that it is not some form of charade."—[Official Report, Standing Committee D, 14th December, 1971; c. 399–404.] I can give the House further quotations, all of which indicate that at that time at least the right hon. Member for Deptford was most desirous of what he called the "flexibility" which might be demonstrated by my right hon. Friend in accepting the Amendment, then argued so eloquently by the hon. Member for Widnes. These opinions represented the mature view of the right hon. Member for Deptford, based not only on the arguments which he had heard in Committee but on his long years of experience as a specialist in local government affairs. My tribute to him is based on the confidence that what he said then will again be said by him and that the Amendments will also have his support.

Finally, I also have pleasure in having in my hand a letter from the hon. Member for Heywood and Royton. Writing to the town clerk of Rochdale, the hon. Gentleman said: …I should say that I do entirely agree with the Council's suggestion"— that is, the Rochdale Councilthat Rochdale and Bury should be divided into two separate sub-Regional centres. Whatever hon. Members on both sides may say, it is incontrovertible that there are only three hon. Members in the House whose constituencies are wholly within the district concerned. They are myself, representing Bury and Radcliffe, including Tottington, the hon. Member for Rochdale and the hon. Member for Middleton and Prestwich, which includes Whitefield. Those hon. Members come from both sides of the House, and they are unanimous in their support of the Amendments. Surely the greatest weight must be attached to their views above those of any other hon. Member in this debate.

Finally, to sum up, trade wants it, commerce wants it, society wants it, organised labour wants it, work people want it, employers want it, religious institutions want it, recreational associations want it, and social welfare workers want it. Geographically, industrially, traditionally and administratively, this is the answer. Generally, communications-wise and population-wise, this is the answer.

Photo of Mr Selwyn Lloyd Mr Selwyn Lloyd , Wirral

Order. The hon. Member had one "finally".

Photo of Mr Michael Fidler Mr Michael Fidler , Bury and Radcliffe

The local authority representations which have been made in the area gravitate into two groups, one based on Bury and one on Rochdale. They are ready to go ahead in two individual districts. I believe there could be a new blossoming of local government achievement through the Amendments, which have everything in their favour and noth- ing against them. Therefore, I hope that my right hon. Friend's acceptance today will give a tremendous fillip to all in the area to go forward tomorrow.

Several Hon. Members:

Several Hon. Members rose

Photo of Mr Selwyn Lloyd Mr Selwyn Lloyd , Wirral

In calling the hon. Member for Heywood and Royton (Mr. Joel Barnett), I should point out to him that I have not selected sub-amendment (a), standing in his name, but he may discuss it.

Photo of Mr Joel Barnett Mr Joel Barnett , Heywood and Royton

I am sure that if the hon. Member for Bury and Radcliffe (Mr. Fidler) were able to convince the House by the length of his speech, he would win even without the Minister's agreement.

A notable victory has been won by the small town of Whitworth and there is a great lesson to be learned by it. By persuading, I hope, the Minister to allow it to have what it wants—that is to say, not to be in the Rochdale district—Whitworth has won a great victory for democracy. I shall be somewhat critical of the Minister, but I do not wish to be at all churlish, so I express now my appreciation that, as I understand him correctly, he is willing to accept that Whitworth will not be in either of the proposed new areas.

I recognise the impossibility of the Minister's task; it is absolutely impossible for him, as I am sure he is very well aware by now, to satisfy everybody on both sides of the House and in every district of the country. All of us are delighted not to have his job at the moment. However, the Minister told me when I was presenting the case for Whitworth that a junior Minister had flown over the town and had decided it was more suitable to go in with Rochdale. Apparently that flight was abortive, as I now understand that it is accepted that Whitworth is more contiguous with the area the other side of Rochdale.

Photo of Mr Graham Page Mr Graham Page , Crosby

I also told the hon. Gentleman that I went over it on my flat feet.

Photo of Mr Joel Barnett Mr Joel Barnett , Heywood and Royton

Knowing the length of Whitworth, I am not sure that the right hon. Gentleman walked all the way up and down, but whichever way he did it, I am grateful to him.

This is a great victory for democracy. There was great pressure from Whitworth, and it is part of our democracy when a great pressure has the effect of persuading a Minister he has done the wrong thing and is prepared to rectify it. I am grateful to him for doing so. In this instance, the representations I have had from most of the people in the town are overwhelmingly in favour of going into Rossendale rather than staying in Rochdale. This is the type of case when local voices should be heard. The Minister has heard them and I am delighted that he has indicated he is prepared to accept the Amendment.

I turn to the other case where the Minister apparently will reverse a decision because of the magnificent speech of the hon. Member for Bury and Radcliffe, or for some other reason. If he stood on his head over the Whitworth case, for which I am delighted, on an important principle of local democracy, on the small geographical point of the division of Bury and Rochdale he has stood his whole policy on its head. I do not complain about that necessarily. I am delighted to say that much of the Government's policy has been stood on its head. Indeed they are doing well in that process.

The hon. Member for Bury and Radcliffe made it clear—he quoted me and was right to do so—that I have always been in favour of splitting Bury and Rochdale. I have never made any secret of that. But what I have always said is that if we are having smaller district councils, then bodies such as education, social services and the rest should be with the larger authority. That is what I have always said and what is now happening means that the smaller district councils will be given nearly all the major powers, including education. In his circular the Minister stated that he wanted metropolitan district councils with populations of not less than 250,000 but here the figure will be considerably less. Bury will have about 180,000, Rochdale about 198,000 and Oldham about 220,000. They will be among the smallest of the metropolitan district councils in the country. It is an especially harsh decision in the case of Oldham and it affects my own area of Crompton and Royton.

4.30 p.m.

They are now faced with a new authority which without Middleton will be in the position of having no major industrial site. An industrial site is vital to an area like ours in the North-West conurbation because without one the opportunities for expansion become, to put it mildly, extremely difficult, and it is crazy to take Middleton out. In spite of what has been said about Middleton being in favour of the decision, my understanding of the situation from the town clerk of Oldham only yesterday was that in recent months Middleton Council has made no firm decision either way. The vice-chairman of the steering group of the new Oldham Council is a Middleton councillor and has been working very well, as have all the officials, in moving towards the new Oldham District Council. But the crazy thing is that the steering committee has been advising industrialists to develop in Oldham and they have been told that they must go to Middleton because that is where the new industrial estate is situated. Oldham will be left literally with nothing but small sites. The town clerk was here yesterday with officials from Failsworth and other councils pointing out that in the area of the Oldham District Council there will be no reasonable industrial estates.

Forgetting the more emotive issues of the boundaries, the net result is that every ratepayer in each of the three districts in the area will, I believe, be faced with a massively increased rate burden because to try to finance education, social services and the rest of the major items of local authority expenditure out of small populations and the consequent smaller rateable values must be more costly. The very serious problems created for education, for example, will mean inevitably that local authorities, with pressure on expenditure, will be compelled to cut down and one of the areas in which they may be compelled to cut down is that of special schools and the number of school classes generally.

I cannot imagine what the hon. Member for Bury and Radcliffe would have said if I had put an Amendment on the Order Paper suggesting that a small part of Bury be moved out of Bury and put in Ramsbottom, or somewhere that he did not particularly like, without discussing it with him. But he put an Amendment on the Order Paper suggesting that a part of Heywood in my constituency should go into Bury and the other part into Rochdale. I suppose that the people of Heywood might appreciate sharing the two of us as MPs. I do not know what representations he has had from the people of Heywood, but I can tell him that they do not want to be split up in this way. They take the strongest possible exception to the idea, as I do. It is bad enough to play ducks and drakes with Heywood but now to split it up and take a little bit away is a monstrous insult to the people of a town with a long and great tradition and where the borough charter was granted in 1881.

Photo of Mr Michael Fidler Mr Michael Fidler , Bury and Radcliffe

Would the hon. Member admit that it is about 10 months since I indicated to him the nature of my proposed Amendment and that I discussed it with him when I put it on the Order Paper?

Photo of Mr Joel Barnett Mr Joel Barnett , Heywood and Royton

I accept what the hon. Member says if he means that he told me that he was putting it on the Order Paper. But I did not like it then and I do not like it now, and the people do not like it.

I am happy, however, that the Minister has accepted the argument that I put to him yesterday, supported by the town clerk of Heywood and the chairman of the appropriate committee. It was stated that 2,500 people lived in this small part of Heywood but the Minister said yesterday that the figure was about 900 and the town clerk of Heywood told me today after a further check that it is nearer 850. To take 850 people out of a town and put them into Bury, the rest going to Rochdale, seems nonsense to me, and I am happy that the Minister accepts that at least the whole of Heywood should go into Rochdale.

However, I condemn the way in which the whole matter has been handled. The Minister has been adamant throughout that a major principle was involved and that he would not change it. The councillors and officials and town clerks have spent an enormous amount of time in steering committee meetings throughout the country yet, while they were meeting day after day and night after night, the Minister's policy was being changed. On Tuesday night my constituents read in the local paper what was to happen. That was the first indication they had. It looks very much to me that what the Minister intended was that it should go through without his being troubled with the representation that he was kind enough to agree to meet yesterday. But it came very late in the day. The councillors and town clerks who came yesterday telephoned me late the previous night and they had to work very hard to get the necessary people together in order to make representations yesterday.

The Minister's policy was being changed without giving councils the opportunity to make the representations that they would have made if the decisions had been known. That is not only my view but it was the view of the all-party delegation I brought yesterday. It was not the view of any one particular party or any one town. One of the most vehement of the local councillors was a Conservative councillor in my constituency who had some pretty strong words for the Minister because he had apparently read about what was to happen at tea-time the night before. I can understand his feeling because he, like other councillors, must have been having lengthy meetings in the last 12 months, and it is not good enough to be told to forget them and start again. It makes a nonsense of the situation.

While I have always favoured a division between Bury and Radcliffe, I dislike the way in which the proposals have been finally devised. I dislike putting areas together when they are dissimilar. Whitworth and Prestwich have only one thing in common. Their MP at one time represented Prestwich on the borough council. But all that Prestwich has in common with Bury is that its hon. Member is the Member for Bury and is also an alderman in Prestwich. Prestwich has much more in common with Manchester than ever it had with Bury.

I do not like splitting areas, but it is inevitable with conurbations as heavily built-up as those in our area. There would have been some sense if the powers in respect of education, social services and the rest had been given to the upper tier. The new proposal, while it has some merit, is doing the right thing in one sense but it is doing it in an appalling ham-handed way and it is putting powers in entirely the wrong place. Most people prefer it as it is today, and that is certainly the impression gained from speaking to people in the constituency. I fear that giving major powers to the smaller councils will mean higher rates for all those in these areas.

Therefore, we are now to get the worst of all worlds, doing away with small councils, many of which were doing a first-class job. In this case the hon. Gentleman proposed literally to destroy one town, Heywood, by splitting off a bit of it, at the same time by allocating powers ensuring a further boost to inflation through spiralling rates.

It will be clear that I am not entirely happy with what the Minister is doing in the Bill and in the proposal before us. I especially condemn the way in which the whole matter has been handled.

Photo of Mr Charles Fletcher-Cooke Mr Charles Fletcher-Cooke , Darwen

The purpose of my Amendment No. 302 is to preserve the integrity of Turton. Although I feel strongly on the subject, I shall address the House briefly, moderately and at a low temperature.

By "Turton" I mean not my right hon. Friend the Father of the House but the Turton Urban District Council, one of the chief ornaments in the diadem of the Darwen Division of Lancashire. The Turton Urban District Council is something of a misnomer, because it extends over 17,000 acres and is chiefly beautiful moorland. Therefore, it is difficult to describe is as urban, and even more difficult to think of it in the context of metropolitan. Yet the Government's proposal is to sever it in such a way that 19,000-odd of its 22,000-odd inhabitants will go into the metropolitan area of Greater Manchester. The majority of the inhabitants do not want that severance; the district council does not want it; and I do not want it. At one time some of the inhabitants did want it, because, the Lancashire education authority having gone comprehensive, young married couples thought, rightly or wrongly, that their children might receive a better education under the aegis of Bolton, which was not comprehensive. But unfortunately there has been a change of power in Bolton so that even that advantage and attraction are likely to disappear.

Therefore, as time has gone on, the majority of inhabitants who have not wanted this has grown. The fact is that the vast majority of them do not want to leave the county of Lancashire, as they will under the Government's proposal.

It is said that they work and shop in Bolton, and indeed they do, but that argument proves too much. If everybody who travels to work or to shop in a neighbouring town is to have his home included in it for local government purposes, we shall be straight back to Redcliffe-Maud, a policy which I thought the Government had rejected. Also, if everyone who works or shops in a neighbouring town is to be transferred, the whole of the urban district should be transferred. Belmont and Edgworth were excluded by the line which was drawn across the Turton moors, rather as the Pope drew a line separating the interests of Portugal from those of Spain in South America. All of them should be included, for those in Belmont and those in Edgworth shop and work in Turton as much as do the others. Therefore, that argument cannot be used to defend the line, whatever else it may be used for.

4.45 p.m.

But my chief objections are the repercussions of the line. If Turton could be preserved in its integrity, as my amendment suggests, it would form a natural district council with the present non-county borough of Darwen, with a few other villages, as both local authorities want. That would make a good district council of about 59,000 souls, which is about the right size for a district council in a rural area. It would be of about 40 square miles. But if 19,000 of the 22,00 are to be removed and put into Greater Manchester, that possibility will not be open, for then it would be too small, and it would have to join the district council to be based upon Blackburn, as has been proposed.

The county borough of Blackburn is already quite large enough as a district council with its present boundaries. It has over 100,000 souls, and if it is to have added to them Darwen, what remains of Turton and half the Blackburn rural district, it will approach 140,000, which is, on modern views, too large for that local contact which is so important in district councils in the county and which has been emphasised over and over again by experts and pundits in the matter. Fifty-nine thousand is good, 100,000 is tolerable, but 140,000 for a county district council is much too big. Yet that will be the inevitable result if the line drawn in the very curious way across Turton Urban District Council is to stand. It is an old line that has been dredged up from somewhere and it is obviously a wrong line, if there must be a line at all, for it cuts off the northern part of the Edgerton ward, leaving a dozen or so families out on the moors out on a limb, miles from anywhere.

My second and third Amendments, Amendments Nos. 403 and 1043, seek to rectify that line in a very modest manner, assuming the line must stand, for I think that that dozen or so families should stay with their ward of Edgerton, and if necessary they must go into Manchester along with the others south of the line. It would be cruel to leave them out on a limb, as the Government have proposed. If my right hon. Friend is determined to preserve the line, those dozen families should go into Manchester along with their neighbours.

In conclusion I must thank my right hon. Friend for coming to the area recently, to the surface of the area, not flying above it but walking over it. That was very much appreciated. It contrasts with a flight taking under half an hour, which was the only previous ministerial experience of the difficulties of the area. Even if the worst is to befall the people of the southern part of the Turton Urban District Council—and I have no great hopes of saving them—at least they will know that my right hon. Friend has taken a great personal interest in this difficult problem. I hope that even at this late hour I may be able to save them from this fate, but even if I cannot, I thank my right hon. Friend very much.

Photo of Mr Charles Morris Mr Charles Morris , Manchester Openshaw

I draw attention to the Amendment standing in the names of my hon. Friends the Members for Oldham, East (Mr. James Lamond), Colne Valley (Mr. David Clark), and myself, Amendment 1021 (a). That Amendment seeks to retain Middleton in the envisaged Oldham metropolitan area. Against the background of speeches from the hon. Member for Bury and Radcliffe (Mr. Fidler), nobody would dispute that Bury and Rochdale have a separate natural identity of community interest.

The Minister's original proposals, which we are now led to believe are to be dramatically changed, envisaged the Middleton County Borough being included in the proposed Oldham metropolitan area. We are entitled to know the reason for that dramatic change. Nobody will argue that Bury and Rochdale have a separate identity. But the Minister's proposals for accepting the Amendments in the name of the hon. Member for Bury and Radcliffe are contrary to the criterion of the 250,000 laid down in the Minister's White Paper. The Minister's decision is contrary to the ministerial view which was expressed during the Committee stage of the Bill on 14th December last. The decision has caused consternation amongst the local authorities in the proposed Oldham metropolitan area.

Yesterday the civic representatives from Failsworth, Oldham, Saddleworth, Chadderton, Royton and Crompton sought an immediate interview with the Minister to put their case. Their first concern was that they had only 36 hours notice of the Minister's decision. My hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and Royton (Mr. Joel Barnett) drew attention to that.

This should not be the way in which ministerial decisions are made. Those representatives came to the House to register their immediate protest. Their protest was that if one takes Middleton out of the proposed Oldham metropolitan area one will deny that area £1,700,000 of rateable value, which is approximately one-third of the rateable value of the Oldham County Borough. That is the financial implication of this move. It is bound to have an effect on the provision of education, personal health services and social services in the new Oldham metropolitan area.

The smaller authorities such as Fails worth in the proposed 12F area needed a very great deal of persuasion to accept the idea of joining the Oldham metropolitan area. For nearly 12 months they have been liaising and co-operating in the work of a steering group. They now find at this late stage that the structure of the envisaged 12F area, the Oldham area, is to be changed and that Middleton, which was the growth development area of the Oldham metropolitan district, is to go into Rochdale. The Minister is obliged to provide an explanation. When this matter was considered at the Committee stage the Minister's colleague said: The new proposals"— that was the proposals to split Rochdale and Bury—if accepted would give Bury a population of only 175,000. In place of our present proposals which create two strong districts—one based on Bury-Rochdale and the other on Oldham—we would end up with three under-sized metropolitan districts, the metropolitan districts of Bury, Rochdale and Oldham. That is what the Minister is now proposing to accept. He continued: If we were to accept…this proposal for splitting Bury and Rochdale…we should have established yet another precedent where there was no overwhelming case for so doing."—[Official Report, Standing Committee D, 14th December, 1971; c. 414–15.] That is the contention of the local authorities in the 12F area.

Photo of Mr Michael Fidler Mr Michael Fidler , Bury and Radcliffe

Would the hon. Gentleman accept that the report dealing with strategic planning for the North West was not in existence at the time of that debate?

Photo of Mr Charles Morris Mr Charles Morris , Manchester Openshaw

The local authorities in the envisaged Oldham metropolitan area were not aware that the Minister was going to change his decision and attitude and point of view so dramatically. The Minister said that the idea of putting Middleton in Rochdale and splitting Rochdale from Bury has been canvassed over a long period. Until 36 hours ago the ministerial statements and all indications from his Department were that the Oldham metropolitan district was to include Middleton. What has happened to change his mind?

The hon. Member for Bury and Radcliffe has fought a very long campaign to bring the split between Rochdale and Bury about. I agree that he was not on the Committee which considered the Bill. His rôle at that time was, if he will forgive my saying so, very much one of the fiddler on the roof. Although he was not present he exercised what some might think was a malevolent political influence on the Minister's thinking. I hope that the Minister will tell us of the justification for this dramatic change of mind.

Photo of Alan Haselhurst Alan Haselhurst , Middleton and Prestwich

In supporting the Amendment moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Bury and Radcliffe (Mr. Fidler) I pay tribute to the energy and determination which he has shown in representing the views of his constituents and the sustained campaign he has maintained on this issue. For reasons which will be apparent, I have not at all times been able to stand by him during his campaign. On this occasion I stand foursquare with him in supporting these Amendments. The whole of my constituency is affected, though in varying degrees.

All three towns support Amendment No. 1020 and linked Amendments. I state that lest it be thought that their voices have been muted on this issue. Whitefield is the smallest town in the constituency and lies geographically on the Bury border. It found itself, under the arrangements of the White Paper, in District 12F from the beginning. That was confirmed in the Bill. Whitefield did not quarrel with that fact. It did not have any particular reason for wanting to transfer itself from one district to another. Nevertheless, the locally-held view in Whitefield supported Bury in Bury's fight to separate itself from Rochdale. That view has been endorsed by a minute of the urban district council. As the Member for Whitefield I have been urged to support that view.

5.0 p.m.

As a result of the White Paper Prestwich found itself in District 12D, and very much resisted that proposition. There was very strong opposition developing locally, and persuasion on the Government proved successful. When the Bill was published Prestwich found itself in District 12C, and there was a sigh of relief as a result. Prestwich still had a view on the matter of further development with regard to Bury and Rochdale but perhaps did not feel that it was altogether gracious to push its luck in seeking another major change in the Bill.

When we turn to Middleton, the position needs rather more careful explanation. The position of Middleton can be shown to have been one that has not lacked responsibility throughout. I have to admit that the first response of any self-respecting Middletonian to the idea of local government reorganisation was that he did not want to know, that Middleton was "all right as it was, thank you." I imagine that this is an impression which right hon. and hon. Members have found many times in their own areas.

In fairness to Middleton, it also recognised that some sort of local government reorganisation had to come and on its own account was involved in discussions with neighbouring urban district councils ahead of the publication of the Bill. The White Paper put Middleton under District 12F. The council was reluctant to take a decision either to approve or disapprove because it did not feel that sufficient information was available on which it could base a sensible decision. In any case it thought that as the only alternative to being in District 12F, centred on Oldham, was to be in a metropolitan district which included Rochdale and Bury it did not feel that the choice gave it any great determination to escape from District 12F.

After months of consideration the Middleton Borough Council decided that if there was a possibility of a metropolitan district including Rochdale and Heywood but excluding Bury that was what it would wish. It took that decision before the Bill was published. After it was published and Middleton was still placed in District 12F the council decided to accept this, regretfully, feeling that the matter was finally settled and that what should be done was to co-operate in the setting-up of the new district.

It was certainly apparent to me and, I believe, many people in Middleton over a period of months since the publication of the White Paper that the people of Middleton were far from delighted at the prospect of being in District 12F. As awareness grew of Rochdale's fight for separation from Bury and for the creation of two metropolitan districts, so the people in Middleton were asking in louder voices why it was that there could not be a link-up between Middleton and Rochdale.

I recently felt it right to put this matter once again to the Middleton Council and to say: if there was a chance of a Rochdale-based metropolitan district, did it wish to be in that district, did it wish Middleton's voice to be heard in support of that proposition? The only convenient body at the time able to consider that question was the finance and general purposes committee of the council, although this has been the body which has, all along, formulated policy on reorganization matters. I was duly informed that Middleton would prefer to be in Rochdale. This was in March of this year. I also made it clear in the local paper, the Middleton Guardian, that the door might not be finally shut on the possibility of a change, and I invited comments.

The result was a considerable number of letters and mini-petitions. These amount to practically a 14 to 1 vote in favour of Middleton being linked with Rochdale rather than Oldham. All of us realise what might be termed a significant amount of correspondence on any issue. If one has an electorate of 35,000 one does not expect to be getting 5 per cent., 10 per cent. or 15 per cent. of letters on any subject. There have been a total of 378 names and addresses submitted mostly in individual letters and the rest in the form of mini-petitions, with 352 expressing themselves in favour of being in Rochdale and 26 against. The letters come from all parts of the town including the large Langley overspill estate which draws its population largely from Manchester.

Some of the things said in the letters are rather interesting. One lady says: I did not know we had any choice. We were told we were going with Oldham. Middleton people were not even consulted. Someone else said: I feel sad…to see, like many others, that it was no use protesting about the link-up with Oldham as the powers-that-be would please themselves anyway, whatever we ordinary people feel about it. One other lady wrote to me: Last night, 12 days after my resolve to write to you I realised that time might be running short and that probably many of your constituents, like me, had decided to write and had let the opportunity slip. So I decided to canvass my neighbours for an hour or so. The result is the enclosed list of signatures. Every person I approached was most anxious to sign—some had intended to write. This proves to me how lazy we all are and we deserve just what we get. However, I do hope that you will succeed in getting the decision that Middleton be merged with Oldham altered. These remarks back up the clear message I have received at all the gatherings that I have attended in Middleton in the past few months. I am satisfied that the overwhelming view of the people of Middleton is in favour of these Amendments which would allow them to be linked with Rochdale.

It is also my duty to say that I received yesterday a resolution signed by 15 Labour members of the Middleton Council which supported Middleton staying in District 12F. I am equally bound to point out that this does not represent the entire Labour group on the Middleton Council. This is a matter which cuts across party lines as my hon. Friend the Member for Bury and Radcliffe pointed out so adequately. I am also satisfied that, had there been time for a full meeting of the council to be properly convened to discuss this matter, then on a free vote it would once again have reflected support for Rochdale in preference to Oldham, in line with all its previous decisions.

When it comes to the merits of choice I will be frank with my right hon. Friend. It is not very easy to show the various considerations that can be taken into account in terms of amenities and finance and so on as being decisive one way or the other. Lord Redcliffe-Maud and Mr. Derek Senior who wrote a dissenting report at the time could certainly adduce no convincing reasons for placing Middleton with Oldham as they did. Mr. Senior was quite open about the difficulty. In paragraph 590 of Cmnd. 4040 he wrote: Among other finely balanced decisions in which I have no great confidence, but which I have not yet had adequate cause to reverse, are the inclusion of Middleton in the Oldham rather than the Rochdale unit. The impression might be given from all this that Middleton was being placed in the Government's White Paper more according to what seemed most convenient to fit in on a map being drawn up rather than because there was an absolutely overwhelming and outstanding case based on other considerations to place it in one direction or another. After all, an earlier local government commission had placed Middleton with Rochdale, and this had also been the view of the Lancashire County Council at one time.

I have tried to balance these considerations. What weighs with me is that I believe there is a closer natural affinity between Rochdale and Middleton than between Middleton and Oldham and I believe also from the point of view of my constituents that there will be greater scope for development if Middleton is linked in an area with Rochdale.

But surely the thing that matters most where other considerations are not absolutely clear-cut is what the people themselves want. I submit that there is an overwhelming majority in Middleton which wants to be with Rochdale and shuns Oldham. This view is backedup effectively by Prestwich and Whitefield's desire to see a Rochdale/Bury split. This is further endorsed by the views of Rochdale and Bury themselves, and the other authorities mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Bury and Radcliffe. In short, almost everybody wants to see this change brought about. I am sorry if Oldham and the other members of District 12 (f) do not now want to see this, but my responsibility is to speak for my constituents and I am very clear in my mind as to what the views of my constituents are. Whilst there may be financial considerations which affect the minds of the good citizens of Oldham, again not from any party consideration, I would also have to back the remark made by the hon. Member for Heywood and Royton (Mr. Joel Barnett) about democracy. I believe it would be a triumph for democracy if the people in my constituency, thinking overwhelmingly as they do, had their views taken into account by my right hon. Friend in this connection.

My right hon. Friend could very easily grant my request in that we are not seeking in this Amendment to upset in any radical way the basic principle underlying the Government's reorganisation plans. We are not challenging the concept of the metropolitan county. We are not seeking to transfer powers from district to county, or vice versa. We are saying in effect that we accept all this in principle. All we are asking is that an extra metropolitan district be created. We say that this can be done without upsetting the Government's overall plan, and we say it should be done in order to create the greatest good will among the greatest number of people to ensure that the new authorities are launched under the most promising auspices.

5.15 p.m.

Photo of Mr Frederick Lee Mr Frederick Lee , Newton

I want to speak to Amendment No. 474. As the Bill now stands, the right hon. Gentleman proposes to dismember the Golborne Urban District Council. He is going to place two of its wards, Culcheth and Newchurch, with Warrington and Chester while the remainder of the urban district gees with that of Leigh and Wigan. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman realises the anomaly he is here producing. In the Newchurch ward there is a village called Glazebury which is already part of the Leigh borough, so there will be the ridiculous situation in which half of a village well into the heart of Lancashire will be in Leigh borough and the other half will be based on Chester. Could there be a more grotesque situation?

Those of us who have lived in the area for many years have always known this part of Lancashire as the Leigh rural areas. They were put with the Golborne Urban District Council many years ago, and since then we have had the great advantage of the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority establishment at Risley a mile or so to the south, and Culcheth has become the residential quarter for the Authority. The first of the people at the Atomic Energy Authority establishment were housed by the Golborne Urban District Council on council estates. They showed themselves very enterprising, and we have a great number of social activities in the area based neither on Leigh nor on Warrington but on Culcheth itself.

My argument is that among those social amenities, and I could give a whole list of them, there is not a single one which is in any way based on Warrington or Chester. The great majority of them owe their origin in part to their proximity to Leigh. For instance, there are the Civic Society, the Drama Society, the Music Society, the WVS, two Women's Institutes, the Spastics Society, the Horticultural Society, and so on. Not a single one of them has any kind of origin in Warrington, whereas the Leigh children's department has liaison officers in Culcheth.

I have tried to describe as briefly as possible the way this area has now developed. I never heard any suggestion from any of the inhabitants of Culcheth or Newchurch of wanting to go into the Warrington area until we had a further input of people to the atomic energy establishment. These were not people who were being housed by the Golborne Urban District Council but people with pretty substantial residential premises of their own. They know nothing about Culcheth or its history, and they are not interested in it. I put it to the right hon. Gentleman that they are far more interested in the value of their residences, and maybe in party politics as well, than they are in the desire to have decent local government in that area.

I have intimated that the Golborne Urban District Council has spent a great deal of time and money on developing what is now a very desirable residential area. It seems to me that there is more to it than a mere redistribution of local government functions. Of course, Leigh and Golborne are more famous for their cotton mills and slag heaps than for the more residential and balmy atmosphere of Cheshire, although maybe the thought of the Cheshire hounds going along slag heaps is entertaining. To my mind, this decision has not been arrived at on the basis of what is good for the area so far as local government is concerned. It has been done for very different reasons.

Let me take one or two of the other developments which have taken place. I had to fight about the closure of two railways which run through Culcheth. Neither of them ever went near Warrington; they went in precisely opposite directions. Those stations went and we now rely on public road transport. In the main the provision comes from Leigh; we are in the SELNEC area, Wigan and Leigh. The nearest bus from Warrington finishes at Fearnhead, about three miles from Culcheth.

If we take the health side of things, there are two practices, one in Leigh, with a clinic in Culcheth, and the other completely local to Culcheth. Up to 10 years ago there was one practice run from Leigh. Recently one of the dentists has left the village to take up practice in Leigh.

I do not want to labour the point, but I must ask the right hon. Gentleman, on the evidence I have adduced, to give me any reason he can why, in the letter he sent to me the other day, he told me, before he had heard my arguments, that he had decided to reject the Amendment.

It is wrong that changes should be made when in an urban society like Golborne there has been established an affinity between the wards. The basis of that society having been laid, we now find it is to be dismembered. One half of the village of Glazebury is to be in Leigh and the other half is to be based on Chester. That is not organisation; it is organised chaos. I ask the right hon. Gentleman, even at this late hour, to examine this matter again, even if it means putting down an Amendment in another place.

In the last two years the first phase of the Culcheth High School has been brought into use With few exceptions Culcheth and Glazebury children go to the comprehensive school. Before the opening of the High School children went to grammar schools at either Leigh or Newton-le-Willows. Although it was theoretically possible for those children to go to Warrington Grammar School, I know of no parents in Culcheth or New-church who sent their children there. If a patient has to go to hospital, unless he asks specifically to go to Warrington he is sent either to Leigh or Wigan.

I have tried objectively to set out the facts. I challenge the right hon. Gentleman to deny them. If he cannot deny them, I hope he will do the decent thing and transfer the whole of Golborne into the Leigh-Wigan area.

Photo of Mr Ronald Bray Mr Ronald Bray , Rossendale

Since there are a large number of hon. Members who wish to speak, I will confine my remarks to matters which specifically affect the constituency which it is my privilege to represent, Rossendale.

The affairs of Bury and Rochdale are domestic issues within that area, and I am sorry that my hon. Friend the Member for Bury and Radcliffe (Mr. Fidler) is not in his place when I make these remarks. My constituents and I strongly resent the intrusion of the Bury authorities and the manner in which it has been done. It has been done without authority from the local authorities or from political and social associations. I shall later refer to statistics which confirm that. I shall concentrate my remarks on Amendment No. 10, in my name, and Amendment No. 305 which I support in conjunction with the hon. Member for Heywood and Royton (Mr. Joel Barnett).

To get the picture into perspective, Rossendale consists of four comparable towns, and, we hope, with the addition of Whitworth urban district which is of smaller stature, five towns. They are valley towns which have a great deal in common in industry and social life, and they work amicably together. They have a great many social problems, but because of the Governments present policies they are being rapidly overcome. I hope that process will continue after the Bill becomes law, but that depends largely on the attitude adopted by my right hon. Friend the Minister for Local Government and Development.

About 20 years ago the four valley towns, Bacup, Haslingden, Rawtenstall and Ramsbottom, started negotiations for voluntary amalgamation. Two years ago those negotiations had reached an advanced stage. I discussed the proposals with my right hon. Friend and I am convinced that, had the White Paper not come forward when it did, those towns would have been amalgamated. That would have been a voluntary amalgamation rather than a shot-gun marriage.

With the publication of the White Paper a peculiar situation arose. Two thirds of the urban district of Ramsbottom was taken from what would have been the Rossendale district and handed on a plate to Bury. Perhaps, as my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Darwen (Mr. Fletcher-Cooke) said, someone flew over the area in a helicopter, or maybe the buses ran that way. Be that as it may, that is the proposal in the Bill, and we utterly reject it. In addition, the district is bounded by the River Irwell, which confines a large part of Ramsbottom. I cannot see that any argument which disregards a natural boundary can be valid.

I give full marks to the activities of these four councils in putting forward their case. There was a referendum which came out in favour not only of Ramsbottom remaining within Rossendale but of Rossendale becoming a county district in its own right, but I may be slightly out of order in mentioning that.

On 22nd December, 1971, I asked the Minister for Local Government and Development a Question, to which I received the following reply: The wishes of local residents were of course taken fully into account, but the Government proposals for the new areas set out in the Local Government Bill, necessarily had regard to many other relevant factors as well."—[Official Report, 22nd December, 1971; Vol. 828, c. 356.] Be that as it may, surely the wishes of the people rather than whims of bureaucracy should be considered.

How many letters has my right hon. Friend received from my constituents opposing his suggestions? How many of my constituents have signed opposing petitions? How many of my constituents have supported him? If we are to believe the answers which have been given—and I always believe my right hon. Friend—not one of my constituents has supported his proposals, but well over 22,000 have objected, as well as the four councils, unanimously, and against party lines. Does not that in itself show the need for the acceptance of the Amendment to leave out lines 42and 43?

I look forward to my right hon. Friend's assurance that he will accept the Amendment and the two Amendments to secure the inclusion of the urban district of Whitworth within what we hope will be the county district of Rossendale. Finally, I thank my right hon. Friend for his courtesy in discussing this subject with me. I feel sure, even at this late hour, and on the basis of constant dripping wearing away a stone, that some good will come from today's debate.

5.30 p.m.

Photo of Dr David Clark Dr David Clark , Colne Valley

I make no apology for participating in this debate as a Member of Parliament representing a Yorkshire constituency. I make this point at the outset since it highlights the difficult position in which the Government now find themselves.

Part of my constituency, Saddleworth, is on the western side of the Pennines, and the Maud Report and the Government's White Paper both suggested that Saddleworth should go into the Greater Manchester area. It will not need great imagination for hon. Members to appreciate that, while we all may have had difficulties in trying to explain to our local authorities why it was necessary for amalgamations to take place, I had one of the most difficult tasks in persuading people in Yorkshire that their future lay in an area which has traditionally been part of Lancashire.

The Maud Report suggested that the district should be split in two. The present White Paper and the Bill suggest that it should go in with Oldham. There is a great difference of opinion about this recommendation, but in the end the people of Saddleworth agreed to go into District 12(f). The area surrounding Oldham was probably the most logical answer. They opted for this area because they felt that it would be well balanced. At one end it has Saddleworth with open green spaces and moorlands, there is the urban area of Oldham, and on the very western edge there is the Middleton area, which we all thought would be the area for the industrial expansion which the district so badly needed.

It has come as a great shock to me and to the people of Saddleworth to find out that only 36 hours ago it was not known that the Government intended to take Middleton out of the Oldham district. I have the full support of the Saddleworth people, who believe that the Minister has acted in a rather shameful manner. They feel that they have not been consulted and have not had the opportunity to make their views known. In other words, they feel that an attempt has been made to slip this provision through without notice. I cannot emphasise too strongly that there will be great resentment in the district about this move. This point was made by every single one of the delegates who saw the Minister yesterday to ask for a last-minute reprieve.

There are two points which I should like the Minister to answer. He gave certain indications that parts of the green belt could be waived for the building of factories. Would he be more explicit on this point? Does he realise that much of the green belt in the Oldham district is in the Saddleworth constituency? It is hilly terrain and probably most unsuitable for large-scale industrial development.

The Minister has grossly offended every urban district in my constituency. In regard to the Huddersfield district, he refused to see the urban districts but saw the county boroughs, and in regard to Oldham he seems to have sold them down the river at the last moment. There is great resentment at the way in which the Government have handled the matter. There will be grave disappointment in the district, and a great many local people and local councillors of all parties will feel that many hours of anxious work and toil in trying to build up a cohesive unit will be destroyed by this last-minute, underhand move.

Photo of Mr Laurance Reed Mr Laurance Reed , Bolton East

I shall say nothing about Amendment No. 7, except that I shall support what the hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. J. T. Price) will say. But I wish to deal with the remarks of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Darwen (Mr. Fletcher-Cooke) concerning Turton, even though I raised this matter fully upstairs. We in Bolton understand and share the anxieties of Turton in being drawn into the Greater Manchester area. This is why we have fought hard during the proceedings on the Bill to obtain for the metropolitan district the maximum degree of autonomy. Having sought for ourselves a fair degree of autonomy, it is necessary and desirable to be organised on a level and scale that will allow us to operate effectively the powers which we have.

The great weakness about so many of the arguments about facts and figures about size, and so on, is that if the 20,000 people of Turton were taken out of the Bolton Metropolitan District we would be below the optimum size required to operate the powers we have won effectively. I am glad that the Minister has made a tour of the area, because it is evident from a visit that Turton is an integral part of Bolton. It is on our side of the high moorland that separates all of us from Blackburn.

My hon. and learned Friend said that many people in the Turton area were opposed to going into Bolton; but this is not the feed-back I have been receiving from the many people in Turton I meet in the shops, schools and factories of Bolton. This is not altogether surprising since a large part of the people of Turton are expatriate Boltonians. We look forward to a partnership with Turton in the changes which are to come in local government, and I am sure that these things will work out for the best. This has not been an easy decision for the Government, and there is perhaps no perfect solution, as the people of Belmont will recognise. However, the proposals we accepted in Committee are, I believe, the best that can be obtained.

Photo of Mr James Lamond Mr James Lamond , Oldham East

I shall not detain the House long. It was rather interesting that the hon. Member for Bury and Radcliffe (Mr. Fidler) quoted extensively from statements made by my right hon. and hon. Friends in the discussions in Committee but did not quote any statement made by his own Ministers. The reason why he did not quote from his own Ministers became clear when my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Openshaw (Mr. Charles R. Morris) quoted from the Minister's reply in Committee.

The Minister made it absolutely clear that if there was any principle at all in the Government's policy on local government—it was difficult to discern a policy, but perhaps the policy was to organise local government units of a certain minimum size so that they could operate efficiently and provide the various services—it was that he would rather have two viable metropolitan districts than three small districts which were all below the criterion for size to provide the services required. That seemed to be reasonable.

Therefore, it was with some amused interest that I listened to the case put forward by the hon. Member for Bury and Radcliffe. But it was with some astonishment that I learned about this proposal in the form of a back-bench Amendment, supported originally by two back benchers and now by a third recruit at the last moment. This is to become Government policy in one of the most important pieces of legislation we have had this Session.

As one who has had more than 12 years' experience in local government, I believe passionately that the roots of democracy lie there and that if we are to reorganise it and make it successful we must do it with a sense of responsibility, ensuring that the framework is correct. What we have done in this House is based on sound principles.

I have yet to discover from the Minister that he has changed his mind. I skip lightly over the tremendous blow that this proposal is to District 12(f), which includes my own constituency as one of its main parts. Many authorities are involved in 12(f) and they have sunk their differences to be part of it. It is no use the hon. Member for Bury and Radcliffe quoting decisions made in Middleton in 1971 saying that if there were to be two districts Middleton would wish to be associated with one of them, but that if there was to be one it would willingly come in with Oldham. After all, the urban district councils which make up 12(f) could all have made the same reservation. They were willing to go into 12(f) if Middleton was included.

This tremendous jigsaw consists of the whole of England and Wales. I appreciate the Minister's difficulties in trying to make a reasonable pattern out of this complex situation. However, if one part of the jigsaw is moved, it has consequential effects on many other parts—in this case especially those round about it in 12(f). It affects it in many ways. It affects the buoyancy of its rateable value. Already 12(f) suffers from the disability of having one of the lowest rateable values of any metropolitan district. Its rateable value is about £9,300,000. Middleton makes up £1,900,000 of that, or almost 20 per cent., and it is proposed to remove that at a stroke. The same applies to the population. Middleton's 55,000 is being removed from the metropolitan district's 277,000. We cannot stand by and allow this to be done by a back-door method without raising some complaint.

In the past, the Minister has moved reasonably. He has consulted the authorities concerned, and I have been impressed by his knowledge of the districts and areas being discussed. I was impressed again only yesterday about his knowledge of 12(f) when I discussed this matter with him. However, he has fallen down badly in terms of the lack of consultation with the authorities concerned, and that is surprising from one of his stature, interest and knowledge. The people who came to see us yesterday were thunderstruck when they were told that a back-bench Amendment was to become Government policy. Not one of them knew about it. I do not know whether Middleton was consulted. Cer- tainly Middleton's representatives were not present. But we were told by those who were present that it was touch and go whether they would accompany the deputation to see the Minister.

I do not believe that anyone can say that he knows how the people of Middleton feel. There has been no recent decision of the council to the effect that it wants to be taken out of 12(f). There has been a decision of a council committee, but it has not yet been taken to the council itself. There is every reason to believe that if and when it is taken to the council the district will wish to stay in 12(f).

Photo of Alan Haselhurst Alan Haselhurst , Middleton and Prestwich

I apologise for not being here to listen to the first part of the hon. Gentleman's speech. However, with regard to his last contention, I think that he ought to say whether he believes that there is any reason to suppose that any decision that the council took today or tomorrow would be any different from any decision reached in the past?

5.45 p.m.

Photo of Mr Eric Ogden Mr Eric Ogden , Liverpool, West Derby

Perhaps I can help my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham, East (Mr. James Lamond). I, too, have received a letter from the Labour majority on the Middleton Council. My hon. Friend knows the operations of local government as well as anyone. If the majority of the local Labour group in Middleton has decided that it would prefer to remain in Oldham, that will be put to a group meeting at which the majority decision will be taken, following which it will be carried automatically. That seems to be a practical reason for saying that a council meeting would express itself in favour of remaining with Oldham.

Photo of Mr James Lamond Mr James Lamond , Oldham East

I am obliged to my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Mr. Ogden) for that helpful intervention.

There are a number of very pressing considerations. One is the lack of industrial development sites of any size in 12(f) if Middleton is removed. To improve a rather depressing environment we must have room for industrial development. That will not exist if Middleton is removed. That is a consideration which we urged strongly on the Middleton councillors when they came to make their decision.

The members of the steering committee in 12(f) are bitterly disappointed. They settled all their differences, of which there were many. My hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Mr. David Clark) brought out one when he referred to Saddleworth. They sank their differences and they co-operated with the Minister. I doubt whether any proposed metropolitan district has gone as far. Now all that work has been smashed to the ground, and all the differences between the various urban district councils and Oldham itself again come to the fore. Human nature being what it is, it is likely that the electors of Saddleworth will say to their elected representatives "If Middleton can come out of Oldham, why were we told that we had to go in? You are not representing us properly. We want you to exercise the same democratic right as Middleton councillors have done. We want you to put pressure on the Minister to ensure that Saddleworth comes out as well."

If we accept this back-bench Amendment we open the door to the complete disintegration of the unity which has been built up and which we look forward to as a reason for the success of the new local government unit. That unity will be destroyed.

Photo of Nicholas Winterton Nicholas Winterton , Macclesfield

I intend to direct my remarks to Amendment No. 11. I am pleased to see my right hon. Friend the Minister in his place, because I have no doubt that the village of Poynton with Worth is well known to him, as he will have received some 800 letters from its residents urging him to allow the village to remain in the county of Chester.

As a county councillor as well as a Member of Parliament, I am especially interested in the Bill. Serving at both levels perhaps enables me to understand and appreciate both sides of the coin. But, at whatever level one serves, there is no doubt that local government is in essence a very personal matter. It deals with the administration of perhaps the two most personal services—those of social services and education. For this reason I believe that it must provide a a balance between efficiency and demo- cracy, efficiency being characterised by size and democracy by relatively small community units.

In this Bill, bureaucracy in the guise of so-called efficiency seems to have won all along the line, to the detriment of identity and an acceptable widely-based representation. Remoteness and frustration are the inevitable results. Councils are comprised of retired people with time on their hands, wealthy businessmen who can buy time, and an element of trade union officials and members who, in the main without financial loss, are encouraged to participate in local government. These people will provide the sparse harvest from which local government representation will be drawn. This will not provide either adequate or suitable representation. Grass roots availability and understanding are vital ingredients of local government. The Bill fails dramatically to provide these ingredients.

I hope that my right hon. Friend is prepared to consider this Amendment sympathetically, and also the others with which it is grouped, and has not set his mind with inflexible dogmatic resolve against accepting any further changes to the Greater Manchester county and the districts within it, despite, I emphasise, the weight of evidence and argument presented in the debate today. It is unfortunate that certain senior civic leaders in the Greater Manchester area have let it be known that in meetings with my right hon. Friend he has stated that the Government will not contemplate any further changes to the metropolitan and county boundaries. If so, our debate today is a pointless exercise and my right hon. Friend's attitude a discourtesy to the House.

Photo of Mr Graham Page Mr Graham Page , Crosby

I am sure that I have made no such dogmatic statement on any occasion.

Photo of Nicholas Winterton Nicholas Winterton , Macclesfield

A certain civic leader has indicated to people in the parish concerned that my right hon. Friend has clearly stated that he is not prepared to accept any Amendments.

The purpose of my Amendment is to remove the rural parish of Poynton with Worth from the proposed District 12(h) of the Greater Manchester County and to place it in the County of Cheshire, of which it has long been a part.

Poynton is a free standing village separated from Hazel Grove, Bramhall and the Greater Manchester conurbation by substantial tracts of agricultural land which is included in the North Cheshire Green Belt. When this matter was discussed in Committee, the then Undersecretary said: I should not be able to describe it as a village separated from the conurbation. There is, it is true, a small green field gap, but it is very small."—[Official Report, 14th December, 1971; Standing Committee D, c. 418.] This is incorrect and misleading. I admit that there is one point at which the green field gap is only 800 yards wide—about half a mile—but, with that exception, the green belt is well in excess of a mile wide. If there is any doubt in my right hon. Friend's mind, I suggest that he walks the area, as I have, to see for himself that which he can see from the map which I hold up.

The development which radiates from Manchester in a southerly direction comes to a halt at Hazel Grove. Unless the green belt proposals are to be completely abandoned, which would be an environmental disaster, there is no question of Poynton being linked physically with the conurbation for many years to come, if at all.

Although two road schemes are proposed in the area, one from the A6 at High Lane passing through Middlewood Poynton to connect with the Macclesfield north-south relief link road and the other from the A523 just north of Poynton to connect with Woodford Road, no development is proposed with the former project and only limited development with the latter on land already earmarked for residential development close into the heart of the village.

Despite its growth since 1945—its population is now about 10,000—Poynton with Worth still retains a village atmosphere with an extremely strong community spirit among its residents, many of whom actively participate in local matters. Poynton has a strong parish council which has made excellent provision for the area. Added to these facts are the close and happy relations with the local government authorities forged—this, too, is important—by the relatively high degree of representation that the village enjoys at county and county district level, and the co-operation that exists between these two tiers of authority and the parish council.

If local government is to be effective and local democracy meaningful, there must be a reasonable ratio between the number of local authority representatives and the people they represent. The serious reduction in representation at metropolitan county and district levels that will result from the Bill can do nothing other than take local government further away from the man and woman in the street—the very antithesis of what the Government claim they wish to achieve.

Poynton, like many other areas, will suffer in this direction. Its representation on the rural district council of eight councillors will be reduced to three on the Metropolitan District Council 12(h) which will be based upon Stockport.

The inclusion of Poynton in the metropolitan county will destroy the valuable county, district and parish relationship built up over many years. It must be realised that the constitution of the Greater Manchester County in Schedule 1 includes only nine rural parishes, including Poynton, in what is simply an urban mass of nearly 3 million population.

The comparative value of the population of the village of Poynton to the Greater Manchester and Cheshire counties respectively can be clearly illustrated. The population of the proposed Greater Manchester area is 2,870,000 and of the proposed new Cheshire approximately 800,000. Therefore, the percentage represented by Poynton is about 0·38 per cent. and 1·40 per cent. respectively.

Taking it at the proposed district council level, the population of District 12(h) is 331,000 and the Cheshire County district concerned 100,000. The percentage represented by Poynton is therefore approximately 3·3 per cent. and 10 per cent. respectively. Therefore, the effect upon the metropolitan county and district by the retention of Poynton in Cheshire would be minimal, whereas the effect on Cheshire is significant.

I wish to touch briefly on a point of administrative efficiency, seemingly so important to the Government. Of all the areas proposed for inclusion in District 12(h), only Poynton will be at variance with the parliamentary constituency boundaries recommended in the most recent report of the Boundary Commission. Only Poynton will be in the position of being located in one local government area, but in a different constituency. This must be considered administratively unfortunate. As Poynton has a growing affinity with Macclesfield, due to industrial expansion in that borough providing employment for many Poynton residents, and because of its own small but expanding light industrial estate, the parish should not be torn from its natural home in Cheshire.

While I admit that a high proportion—75 per cent.—of the employed population of Poynton, totalling 4,580 in 1966, travel out of the parish to work, the major source of employment is at Woodford Aircraft Works, immediately to the west of the village, and not in the Greater Manchester conurbation. Some 1,500 people find work within the Macclesfield rural district. As only just over 2,000 from the whole area of the rural district commute to Manchester, it is unlikely that more than 1,200 of the employed population of the parish work there.

The Minister has placed great importance on the fact that statistics prove that more Poynton people travel by public transport to Stockport and Manchester than in the direction of Macclesfield. I agree that public transport, totally inadequate as it is, is biased towards Manchester; but as a growing number of people in Poynton, as elsewhere, own vehicles and use them to get to work, statistics on public transport mean very little indeed.

Whitehall's blind craving for size and administrative ease fails to appreciate, or even comprehend, certain important matters. For example, the important service of education. Poynton contains an excellent new secondary school, which serves a large surrounding district particularly meeting the requirements of children from the villages of Pott Shrigley and Adlington—both remaining in Cheshire under the proposed reorganisation. These children undergo primary training in their own village schools and later enter the secondary school at Poynton. A number of Poynton children on the other hand, go to the King's School at Macclesfield for their secondary education.

6.0 p.m.

I cannot see the new district councils taking kindly to heavy extra district charges. Apart from the financial aspect, the proposed situation is not educationally desirable, as it may well be found in future that differing systems of education exist between the two authorities—and the problems of school transport, so well known to this House, must also be appreciated.

Finally, if democracy is to mean anything—and my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister as well as my right hon. Friend the Minister for Local Government and Development have acknowledged the importance of public opinion; particularly my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister who said that we governed by the people's mandate—how can the Government—and I say this with emphasis—ignore the clear wishes of 83·6 per cent. of the electorate of the village of Poynton, this figure representing 95·5 per cent. of those who wished, or were available to express an opinion on this matter, who have dramatically indicated their desire to remain part of the County of Cheshire? This is no borderline majority. This is an overwhelming expression representing all sections of the village, supported by the county council, the rural district council and the parish council.

The Bill, as proposed, will strangle local government. It exudes bureaucratic bumbledom and it will eradicate community spirit and take local government away from the people it serves. I admit that the reform of local government is needed, but the Bill contains far too many ill-thought-out proposals and too much illogical slaughter. I ask the House and the Minister to accept my Amendment.

Photo of Mr Thomas Price Mr Thomas Price , Westhoughton

After that tour de force I know that the House will forgive me if I do not seek to emulate such highly-coloured and emotive language as that used by the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton). There are occasions when I might be tempted to utter a few homilies about the doubtful character of this legislation that is being steamrollered through the House, but I should be out of order if I were to try such an exercise tonight.

An Hon. Member:

It is proceeding rather slowly.

Mr. Price:

A steamroller proceeds slowly but it crushes a lot of things in the course of its progress. I ask hon. Members not to provoke me to develop that theme, as I do not want to be out of order.

I rise merely to draw attention to a matter which I have been discussing with various Departments for about six or seven months. Amendment No. 7 in my name is supported by the hon. Members for Bolton, East (Mr. Laurance Reed) and Bolton, West (Mr. Redmond), and therefore by no stretch of the imagination can this be regarded as a party matter.

This is a matter of administration which originally came to my notice as an education problem. I am grateful to see present the Minister for Local Government and Development and his aide-de-camp the Under-Secretary of State, but I should have been even more grateful if there had been present a Minister from the Department of Education and Science.

In this short and fragmented debate—which is what it is bound to be—I want to draw attention to an administrative absurdity. The Rivington and Blackrod Grammar School is an ancient and historic school in my part of Lancashire within a few hundred yards of my parliamentary boundary. It has been there since a famous Bishop, Durham, Bishop Pilkington, an ancestor of the present distinguished member of the other place, Lord Pilkington, founded it in 1566, and some years ago I had the pleasure of attending the 400th anniversary of this famous foundation. These are historical embellishments which I mention merely to emphasise that this is by no means an artificially produced school because of the growth of population at a given time. It has a long history of distinguished service to education.

Some years ago, when the whole concept of comprehensive education was being debated vigorously by many people who had opposing views about it, this district, which was a division of the Lancashire County Council education committee for administrative purposes, decided to redevelop Rivington and Blackrod Grammar School, rename it Rivington High School, and use it on a comprehensive basis.

Regardless of party politics and the kind of disputes that arise on matters of principle on these issues, the educationally well-advised local people in my part of Lancashire, who knew the school, who had lived with it and had promoted its welfare and its progress, were all agreed that that development should take place. Then along came the moguls of Whitehall after the Redcliffe-Maud Commission reported and began to up-end all the established forward planning that had taken place. I should be out of order if I were to develop that now, and I do not wish to do so.

This school draws its population from three townships, all of which are in my parliamentary Division of Westhoughton—Westhoughton itself, Horwich, now an urban district, and Blackrod, another urban district. The school in its new form will have an intake of about 1,300 children. It is a mixed school on the site of the ancient grammar school on the shoulders of Rivington Pike at the foothills of the Pennines, with fine views across the countryside, and a fine place at which to have a school development. The land is there to be developed on a large scale in order to provide places for these 1,300 children from the three townships, all of which are now within Metropolitan District (b) of the Greater Manchester area to be administered from Bolton.

I do not want to over-elaborate this, to be emotional about it, or to make dramatic statements. I am concerned with common sense. I drew the attention of the Secretary of State for Education and Science to this matter on 6th January. Apparently, the right hon. Lady is not required to be present for this debate; nor is one of her Under-Secretaries of State. Presumably, therefore, the right hon. Gentleman will be here until 8 o'clock tomorrow morning, at breakfast time, and anyone who wants a reply will have to sit it out till then, but I do not intend to do so. In fact, I cannot stay because I have business to attend to in other parts of the country. The right hon. Gentleman has my profound sympathy. He ought to receive support from other Government Departments which have a foot in this door, but they switch things over to his camp when they run up against awkward things such as this.

This school will not draw one half of 1 per cent. of its population from the county area, that is the non-metropolitan county area of Lancashire. They are all within the ring fence of Metropolitan District (b), and I am merely saying that we ought to have the common sense to make the necessary boundary alteration now.

I shall not quote in extenso the answer to my plea by the right hon. Lady the Secretary of State for Education and Science, because I do not wish to waste time embellishing what I say with much verbiage. Replying to my courteous and correct letter—all my letters are like that—after her general introduction the right hon. Lady said: While I understand your concern, and certainly would not wish to minimise the difficulties that may face the school as a result of boundary changes, I know you will appreciate that the same kind of situation will occur in other parts of the country. So what? Apparently, the merits of the question do not matter. Because there is a lot of measles during an epidemic, the bureaucratic mind takes refuge in saying, "It is not so bad your having measles because all the kids in the next street have measles". This does not make any impression on rational minded hon. Gentlemen who are supposed to be running the country. To put up that sort of cock to me is a bit much—if that is not using language which is too untidy.

The right hon. Lady continued: The new education authorities will in general have, of course, the job of coping with these problems and I am sure they will be more than equal to the task. If that is not a piece of self-righteous complacency I have never heard of one. I am sorry to have to say this behind the right hon. Lady's back, but she ought to be present, for I would freely say it to her face if she now entered the Chamber.

Having got that off its chest, the Department of Education and Science, which could not answer my questions, switched the point of attack to the Department of the Environment. This is where the Demon King comes into it, the right hon. Gentleman who is now the pivot of this operation in local government, ably assisted by the genial Under-Secretary. I do not wish to quarrel personally with either of them.

When the matter went to the Department of the Environment, I was not honoured by a personal letter from the Secretary of State. I got a letter from the Under-Secretary. The Department is split into little pockets, and I make no complaint about that. But this is a serious matter. The Under-Secretary of State for the Environment, brought face to face with this problem—not directly through me but indirectly through the Department of Education and Science—is shunting it over the counter to another Department. He said: We do appreciate that there is a problem here, but because of the further issues which arise on this particular boundary, I really do think that on balance it would be much more satisfactory to leave this over for the Boundary Commission's detailed review and to make arrangements meanwhile. The hon. Gentleman continued: But there will be no reason why the new school should not vest in the metropolitan district from the start, if is catchment area is so overwhelmingly in that district. Thus it would be possible for the school to be the property of the metropolitan district, and be administered by them, from the outset, even though the actual boundary between the two counties was not adjusted until a little later. I hope that this consideration will allay the fears felt locally, and will enable you to withdraw your amendment. That was quite a courteous approach to me, but I did not accept it. Why should I withdraw the Amendment and accept a pig in a poke from any Government Department? As a Member of Parliament, I have lived with Government Departments for 22 years, under Governments of both political complexions, and often I am extremely sceptical of them. On a matter such as this, they have a technique for always dodging a difficult column. It is nothing to do with party politics. It is to do with the nature of bureaucracy.

But I shall not be tempted into that line of country. I shall not spell it out, except to say that no self-respecting or competent civic administrator, be he a town clerk, a director of education or any one of the kind of officials who will be concerned with the development of this new comprehensive school long before the Boundary Commission sets about this in 1974—when the Act will be on the Statute Book and it will be too late to plead these considerations in its aid—would agree that the matter should be handled in this way.

6.15 p.m.

It cannot be done this way because the officials, meanwhile, have to arrange for the planning, design and erection of many new buildings at Rivington, for the recruitment of considerable additional staff and for the reorganisation of three existing schools which these children are already attending in Horwich and other parts of my constituency. These schools have to be brought together under one roof, rehoused, and made into a coherent school.

To say that these things can be done on an ad hoc basis, without rules laid down and known only by word of mouth, is not a feasible proposition. Although the Government may have done this with the best of good will, I am surprised, because one cannot do things like that. The man who is handling the money, engaging staff and paying out money for materials and buildings wants to know what his statutory authority is for exercising those powers. Therefore, this way of dealing with the matter is impossible.

I have been shown a considerable amount of tolerance until now and I have tried to be brief. I have discussed this matter with the right hon. Gentleman on several occasions. I say to him that this business does not make sense. At this distance of time, with all the months of haggling in Committee and now with this completely disorderly, fragmented debate on all kinds of disconnected questions which hon. Gentlemen from all parts of the House will be debating all night why cannot the Minister accept Amendments sometimes? The Minister has made concessions on the Bill previously. I know that the officials in my local authorities are behind me on this matter. There is one discordant voice in another part of the county area, but it does not add very much because it affects none of the children attending the school.

While I should preserve the courtesies in this matter, I would not be very much overborne by the argument that because this school has always been in the rural district area, it must always stay there. The school must be administered by the authority that has to provide the rate fund and the staff and to plan the buildings and the administration of the school. This matter ought not to be left hanging in mid-air until 1974–75 or some later period when this great monolithic body called the Boundary Commission decides to have a look at it. Meanwhile, much work has to be done.

With great conviction, I appeal to the Minister to accept my Amendment.

Photo of Mr Idris Owen Mr Idris Owen , Stockport North

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in the debate. I wish to bring the House back to Amendment No. 11 in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton). I congratulate him on a most sincere speech in favour of his Amendment. It was a highly emotional speech. It was capably delivered and very sincere. No one works harder for his constituency than my hon. Friend. I know this personally, because I am one of his constituents.

But I have a distinct advantage over my hon. Friend on the subject of the village of Poynton, because I lived there for 20 years. I have worked in Poynton and in the area of District 12(h) for the whole of my life. I have been a ratepayer to the Cheshire County Council and to the proposed District 12(h) at Stockport for the whole of my adult life, so I can reasonably assess the merits and demerits of local government administration on the ground.

Over those years I have worked to support the municipal candidates for the county borough areas, for the Cheshire County Council, and for the Poynton parish council. I have seen those people at work and have a great respect for them. Should the members of the Poynton council be embraced within the area of District 12(h), they will add lustre and character to the new area. The elected representatives of Poynton are wonderful people.

Poynton is astride the A523 leading directly out of Stockport. It is now to be embraced with other urban district areas in the surrounding district. There has been no protest from the other areas which are likely to be included within the district as recommended. My hon. Friends arguments would, if valid, be equally valid for many other urban districts. If those arguments were accepted, we could tear up the Bill and we should have no local government reorganisation. My hon. Friend referred to the massive campaign that has been mounted in the village of Poynton. I ask the indulgence of the House for being somewhat parochial, but this is a highly parochial and emotive issue in the village. The elected representatives, who felt strongly about the matter, decided to mount a campaign to stay within the county of Cheshire. They went from house to house with leaflets announcing that a meeting would be held. The leaflets issued were of a type calculated to arouse the emotions. It is not surprising that my hon. Friend was able to secure a large attendance at this meeting, and many letters were sent to the Government.

If the electors of a parish are threatened that, if they are embraced within a new area, their rates and motor insurance will be higher, they will lose their green belt, they will lose their rural amenities, they will lose their adequate social services, they will lose their identity, and they will lose their say in local government, it is not surprising that people will say that they do not want any part of it.

However, all those things are not true. In support of what I suggest, I have a letter from some of the parish councillors of Poynton inviting me to express their view, which is totally contrary to that advanced by my hon. Friend. These councillors mostly favour Poynton going into the area of Stockport.

My hon. Friend said that there was a substantial tract of green belt between the proposed Stockport area of District 12(h) and the village of Poynton. I lived in that "substantial" tract. My hon. Friend must have seven-league boots, because it is only 485 yards. If that is a substantial green belt, my hon. Friend has the wrong idea of what constitutes a green belt.

Poynton is only 5½ miles from Stockport. There is an area of approximately 500 yards separating the built-up area of Hazel Grove and Poynton. Going from Poynton in a southerly direction to Macclesfield, to the area that my hon. Friend desires to be attached, the distance is 6·5 miles. From the village of Poynton to Macclesfield it is almost continuous green belt. There are at least five miles of continuous green belt betweenPoynton and Macclesfield.

As to transportation and work arrangements, I say unequivocally that the majority of people who live in Poynton and who go out of Poynton to work go to the new metropolitan county area. There is literally a mass exodus from Poynton every morning by bus, by train and by car to the Greater Manchester area. When I lived there—I have no reason to suppose that it is any different now—buses left Fountain Place in Poynton at 15-minute intervals for Manchester. The bus that goes less frequently to Macclesfield makes a rural detour throughout all the villages in the area and takes much longer to arrive in Macclesfield.

The parish councillors who are elected to Macclesfield Rural District Council would have had considerable difficulty in going to their rural district meetings if they did not possess cars, for if they had had to wait for a bus, they would have had to wait a considerable time. They have to travel 35 miles to the county seat. They could not go by bus. They would have to go from Poynton to Cheadle Hulme, from Cheadle Hulme to Crewe. from Crewe to Chester, if going by train, or they could go to Manchester, with a direct service from Manchester. So they must have their own car. Over the years I have spoken to county councillors representing Poynton. They say that the responsibility of going to Chester makes it difficult. One distinguished alderman said that he had to have a taxi when he was no longer able to drive.

Photo of Nicholas Winterton Nicholas Winterton , Macclesfield

Macclesfield is the same distance from Chester as Poynton is. Is my hon. Friend suggesting that Macclesfield should be attached to the Greater Manchester area?

Photo of Mr Idris Owen Mr Idris Owen , Stockport North

I am suggesting that Macclesfield will be merely a county district; it will not be the seat of the county government. Chester will still be the seat of county government.

The elected representatives from Poynton will have to travel 5·5 miles—a journey of a quarter of an hour on the bus—to the seat of the county district council. Under the new proposals if, as we expect, the seat of the metropolitan county is in Manchester, they will be able to go on the train from Poynton to Manchester in 20 minutes. The difference in the mode of travel is bound to have some influence on the metropolitan county district and on the county.

The White Paper states that local authorities should be related to areas within which people have a common interest through living in a recognisable community through the links of employment, shopping or social activities. I lived in the village for 20 years. The employment of the people in the village in which I lived was at the Woodford Airport and at the works of the Hawker Siddeley company, which are in the new 12(h) area. Many other people work in Manchester and all stations north of Poynton. A smaller percentage of Poynton people travel south to Macclesfield.

Government and judicial agencies based on Stockport cover the Poynton area. The head post office of Stockport covers Poynton. The East Cheshire Valuation Panel and the coroner for East Cheshire cover Poynton. Stockport High Court Registry covers Poynton. The local probation service covers Poynton. Stockport area office of the Department of Employment covers Poynton.

As to local services, future sewerage for the village of Poynton will be undertaken in the Selnec area. The fire service assists in Poynton. We have a large college of further education in Stockport with 8,000 students, a substantial number of whom come from Poynton.

On the edge of Poynton is Lyme Park—one of the largest parks of 1,500 acres—available for community amenity in the district. It is on the boundary with Poynton and is maintained by the ratepayers of Stockport.

As to public undertakings, the water board in Stockport has worked with all the representatives in the new District 12(h) area for many years. The Stockport Water Board is responsible for water supply in Poynton. The same applies to the North-West Gas Board and the North-West Electricity Board. The ambulance service at Stockport serves Poyoton.

Going to ecclesiastical matters, the rural deanery of Stockport serves Poynton.

The Trades Council in Stockport is responsible for the trade unionist activities of Poynton. The Chamber of Commerce is similarly situated.

The local papers, the Stockport Advertiser and the Stockport Express, are the only newspapers distributed in Poynton. A substantial shopping precinct has been built in Stockport, which is one of the most successful in the North. That precinct is well supported by the people of Poynton.

The only major recreation in the district that the public enjoy is the local football team. Manchester is the source of the major football activity for the people of Poynton. The Davenport Golf Club, which is in the constituency of the hon. Member for Stockport, South (Mr. Orbach), is now closing down. It is to be reconstructed in Poynton. The cultural centre for Poynton is Manchester. I add, perhaps facetiously, that if the people of Poynton wished to go to see a film, the nearest cinema is in Stockport.

6.30 p.m.

I have had no representations from the Cheshire County Council, or any of the other urban district councils in the proposed District 12(h), the Poynton Parish Council or the Stockport Borough Council inviting me to oppose the new 12(h) area. I have received not one word of protest, although I live in the Macclesfield Rural District area. I have had no protest from Stockport, but that is understandable, because there has never been any diversity of opinion within the borough council on the subject of local government reorganisation. It appears that Stockport is prepared to accept the recommendation of Her Majesty's Government.

So the emotion and the protestation has come from Poynton. However, I should like my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield to appreciate that, although he has witnessed the mounting of a campaign protesting that it should not be moved into Stockport, it is not surprising as Poynton has been relatively isolated and has been well maintained as a village. My hon. Friend said that everyone in Poynton was extremely happy with the present form of local government, but I assure him—I have been associated with the area for more than 20 years—that in many local election campaigns the opposition has been highly critical of the services received from Chester. Of course, that was purely political, but there is no doubt that Poynton is a delightful, well knit community, although I must admit that it has been somewhat inward looking. Any dramatic change in local government was bound to be resisted. I should have been surprised if it had not been resisted. But if we are to accept the recommendations of the White Paper and the Government proposals, and if we take as our criterion the words of the White Paper, we cannot chip away at these proposals to satisfy parochial needs.

The people of Poynton are now getting less interested than they were and the emotion is disappearing. They are displaying hardly any interest in the matter. I know that there would be great difficulty now in whipping up another campaign. The local representatives must be assured that there is a place in the district council for them. They will have much to contribute to the new county district and they must not forget that they are inextricably linked with the other constituent authorities in the new 12(h) area. They are only two miles from Hazle Grove, 2·7 miles from Bramhall and 7·5 miles from Wilmslow. Those are the constituent authorities which are now to come into 12(h), with which Poynton has a considerable community of interest. If one area could be regarded as being outside 12(h) it would be Wilmslow, which would have much more cause to complain.

Finally, Poynton will gain from this merger and District 12(h) will gain from the inclusion in its affairs and deliberations of able and experienced councillors. They will add lustre and ability to 12(h). They need have no fears, and the fears which they have expressed are mainly the fears of "Big Brother". However, they are to join a new family which will be much more successful and more progressive than anything they have ever known in the past. I have no anxieties on that count. Time will show that they will never regret being part of the new District 12(h) community.

Photo of Mr Maurice Orbach Mr Maurice Orbach , Stockport South

The hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton) made a stirring speech using eloquent language in support of his Amendment, which I propose to support, as against the documented statement made by the hon. Member for Stockport, North (Mr. Idris Owen). I was not supplied with a brief, and I want to make it clear that no direct representations have been made to me by the County Borough of Stockport, the people of Poynton or anybody else in respect of this matter. I have not been approached by groups of county councils, parish councils or anybody else. I speak solely as the representative for Stockport, South.

I have weighed up in my mind the situation regarding the approaches made to Poynton, and Poynton's rejection of them. Although it has been stated by both the Stockport local authority and the people in Poynton that approaches have been made to Members of Parliament, they forget that I have been a Member of this House for 22½ years and that the hon. Members for Macclesfieldand Stockport, North have been here for a much shorter time. However, I am sure that they have been approached because they belong to the party which, in the case of the Tory council of Stockport and the people of Poynton, seems to be more considerate totheir point of view.

I have, however, had some indirect representations in the shape of an advertisement in the local Press which bore the heading: Members of Parliament, will you please help us? I thought it was proper as a Member of Parliament that I should read it and I did so. It was a heading to the protest which the people of Poynton were making, quite properly, against their incorporation in 12(h). In the third paragraph of the advertisement they say: We have conducted our campaign in an exemplary manner. Had we all gone on strike, or possibly indulged in violent demonstrations, the powers that be would no doubt have sat up and taken notice.We consider we are a special case. All we ask in life is that our village remains in Cheshire. I support solemnly that last heartfelt wish, but I cannot support them in the idea that if they had threatened to go on strike or had acted violently in demonstrations it would have enhanced their chances of getting the Minister to listen to them more sympathetically than he has done. I hope that the Minister will not be inflexible in this matter, will consider Poynton as a special case, and will give way to the astonishingly effective plea of the hon. Member for Macclesfield, although I think that it might have been better expressed on a different occasion—perhaps when the European Economic Community is under discussion next week.

Photo of Mr Eric Ogden Mr Eric Ogden , Liverpool, West Derby

They do not want to join that, either.

Photo of Mr Maurice Orbach Mr Maurice Orbach , Stockport South

They are a special case, because a month after the advertisements appeared I noticed a newspaper report about Poynton. It said that Poynton people were …'appalled'to see plans submitted for link attached houses, rather than detached houses…". Apparently, all the houses in Poynton are detached. The report went on to say that, to Poynton people, hug houses that were linked together would bring a "shanty town' to Poynton. That gives one some idea of the type of area we are dealing with. It is because of these statements in the Press that I am strongly in favour of the case put by the hon. Member for Maclesfield and do not want these people included in District 12(h). In another newspaper article, we are told that there is in Poynton …a sense of forelock touching feudalism… which will continue and has come down from the days when the Vernon family ruled the whole village. I think that I have shown that as Labour Member for Stockport, South, I would prefer to keep Poynton out of the conurbation. We are happy in Stockport to continue our plebeian rôle.

The town was originally set up as a result of silk spinning. It developed into a haven for people who came over to build the railways and the roads of Britain in the "Hungry Forties". Later, when the Industrial Revolution was in full stride, Stockport turned to cotton spinning. It had 600 mills when I first visited the town; now I believe it has only one. It has changed to being a town of sophisticated engineering and the manufacture of electrical equipment. We are happy to remain that way. We do not all want detached houses; we do not want to go forelock touching around the town to our betters. We are quite happy, therefore, to leave the petit bourgeoisie of Poynton to Macclesfield.

Photo of Nicholas Winterton Nicholas Winterton , Macclesfield

I remind the hon. Gentleman that there are considerable council housing developments in the village of Poynton and that the tenants of those houses, as well as those living in the detached and semi-detached houses, wish to remain in Cheshire.

Photo of Mr Maurice Orbach Mr Maurice Orbach , Stockport South

That is probably quite true. I have not visited the village. I understand that 10,000 people live there. But I am sorry that many of them are in some way blind to their surroundings, although they appreciate their garages and detached houses.

Photo of Mr Idris Owen Mr Idris Owen , Stockport North

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the whole economy of Poynton at the end of the last century and for the first 20 years of this was based on coal mining, which provided Stockport with almost the whole of its output? Poynton was a mining village.

Photo of Mr Maurice Orbach Mr Maurice Orbach , Stockport South

That is true. I read about that in a two-page spread in a newspaper. But I am not here to declare that I know all about Stockport or that I have lived there or in Poynton all my life. I merely advise the hon. Gentleman that the House of Commons is not a place which welcomes people with a pork barrel to push through on occasions. It does not want people here as delegates of an area; it wants people who represent an area and the national interest as well.

Photo of Mr Maurice Orbach Mr Maurice Orbach , Stockport South

I shall not give way again. I think I have given way a reasonable number of times. I have not been outrageous in any way. I do not think that I have made a flamboyant speech. I have not asked the clerks of the local authorities to provide me with a brief. I have reached my own conclusions. I think that the speech of the hon. Member for Macclesfield was perfectly proper and I do not agree with the hon. Member for Stockport, North. I hope that we shall be able to persuade the Minister not to be as flexible in this case as he has been in others.

6.45 p.m.

Photo of Sir Sydney Chapman Sir Sydney Chapman , Birmingham Handsworth

I support Amendment No. 11 and do so not because my constituency is in any way affected but because until the last General Election I lived all my life in, and know the problems of, the area which is the subject of the Amendment. Therefore, hon. Members will agree that I have no vested interest in the sense of representing a continuency point of view.

We are talking about the parish of Poynton with Worth, which has a population of about 10,000. It is proposed that this parish should go into District 12(h), the Stockport district, which will have a population of just under one-third of a million people and will in turn be part of the metropolitan county of Greater Manchester, with a population of nearly three million. As my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton) has said, we are talking, therefore, about a parish which has just over one-third of 1 per cent. of the population of the new county of Manchester and just over 3 per cent. of the population of the new 12(h) District of Stockport. We are therefore, as he also said, talking about a minimal difference, if the Amendment is accepted, to these important proposals, and it is the almost unanimous wish of the electors of the parish that they should remain in the county of Cheshire and not come into the new metropolitan county.

Of course, there are some people in Poynton who are not against the change but in the petition those who were not necessarily in favour but were not against the proposition numbered 310, while the point of view expressed today so eloquently by my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield was shared by 6,658 people. Whatever the merits or demerits of the case, my hon. Friend therefore has the overwhelming support of the parish for which he has spoken.

Having lived near there nearly all my life, I agree with my hon. Friend for three reasons. First, Poynton historically has always been part of Cheshire; secondly, it is geographically part of Cheshire rather than of the conurbation; thirdly, and importantly, politically it has always been part of Cheshire. Its historical link is obvious. On the geographical aspect, I make one point about the green belt. The quality and purpose of a green belt should not be judged by its size. On that issue I disagree with my hon. Friend the Member for Stockport, North (Mr. Idris Owen). Indeed, the smaller or narrower the green belt is, the more important it is is a very real sense. I accept that if Poynton goes into greater Manchester that will not neces- sarily mean the end of the green belt, but its demise will be more rather than less likely. The green belt is of dramatic importance from the planning point of view.

Politically, Poynton has always been part of Macclesfield constituency and Macclesfield rural district. It is interesting to note that if the Bill's proposals go through it will be the only part of the Macclesfield constituency and of the Macclesfield rural district which will go into the metropolitan county, the rest staying in Cheshire county. The majority of people in Poynton seek their employment outside the parish, but by no means all of them in Manchester or Stockport. A number do so at Woodford and some go to Macclesfield. That is also true of the village that my hon. Friend the Member for Stockport, North now lives in and of the village I used to live in.

But because the majority of people do no work in Poynton it does not mean that the village should go into the new metropolitan county. As my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield said, good government is surely a balance between democracy and efficiency. Ninety-five per cent. of the people of Poynton want to remain part of Cheshire. That is the democratic side. On the efficiency side, what I propose will in no way effect the Government's plans.

We are dealing here with a very marginal and minimal part of the new local government structure. I know that my right hon. Friend the Minister is sensitive to the wish of people locally. I humbly ask him to consider allowing Amendment No. 11 because it will give great satisfaction to the overwhelming number of people who live in the parish.

Photo of Mr Michael McGuire Mr Michael McGuire , Ince

I wish to speak to two Amendments which are on the Order Paper in my name, Amendments No. 444 and 445. Their purpose is simple. It is to form a more natural, homogenous unit within the proposed District (a) of the Manchester Metropolitan Council, namely the Wigan district. Ashton-in-Makerfield, the south ward of the town, is almost totally being taken out and being put into the Metropolitan County District (c), the St. Helens district. That contradicts what the Secretary of State said both at the Dispatch Box and in his much-quoted White Paper Cmnd. 4584. In paragraph 8 the White Paper says: Local authority areas should be related to areas within which people have a common interest—through living in a recognisable community, through the links of employment, shopping or social activities, or through history and tradition. The people of the south ward consider themselves to be Wiganers and to be part of the Wigan district. They felt that long before the reorganisation proposals. They were more attuned to the town of Wigan. They went to Wigan for the majority of their shopping. There are facilities in Ashton but they do not compare with those at Wigan. The people indulge in their social activities in Wigan and their support of the Wigan Rugby Football team over a long period shows their attraction to Wigan. The Minister has fastened on the south ward reorganisation of a few years ago, which was purely a local domestic administrative problem which had to be overcome.

If the Amendment is carried it would be in keeping with the famous and much-quoted paragraph 8 and would encourage the community of interest which local government must have to succeed. I know that one of the Ministers difficulties has been with District 11(c) from which I am seeking to take a small part. For all kinds of reasons District 11(c) in the Merseyside metropolitan area has been probably the most difficult, notwithstanding the Amendment moved by the hon. Member for Bury and Radcliffe (Mr. Fidler) dealing with the Bury-Rochdale grouping in the greater Manchester area.

The Minister has recognised the illogicality of putting Skelmersdale into the district and has now taken it out. We know that he will accept an Amendment which will still further carve up District 11(c) because it makes for a greater community of interest. With the best will in the world, these groupings, however natural they may seem to the Minister and his advisers, are doomed from the start if they do not have that essential ingredient of community of interest.

In the Amendments we are not dealing with a great carve up. Of the six towns in my constituency only two have been carved up. Billinge-and-Winstanley was carved up and everyone agrees that it was the most natural carve up. Half will go into the new Wigan area and the other half into District 11(c). I have received no representations from anyone saying that they disagree with it. In the case of Ashton the council have sent a memorandum to the Minister which I know he has studied. In a letter to me dated 4th July he seems to have rejected it fairly quickly.

We have heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Westhoughton (Mr. J. T. Price) how an ancient grammar school or a parish church or some similar object or institution can create a great allegiance in the minds of the people, and how if the object or institution is removed to what the local people believe to be an alien area, that does not help the situation. My hon. Friend referred to an ancient grammar school in his constituency at Rivington. He mentioned Bishop Pilkington, who was the first post-Reformation bishop who went to Durham and who was supposed to be one of the ancestors of the famous Pilkington family. I do not know how true that is, but I believe it is his coat of arms which is reproduced as the trade mark for Pilkington Brothers.

My hon. Friend was making the point about the great affection that the local people have for the grammar school. In my constituency in the south ward, which is to be carved up and taken away from its natural connection with Wigan, there is also a very ancient grammar school. It is not now used for that purpose because the school has a betterbuilding in another area. But the people have an affection for it and they do not want to lose that part of the ward if they can help it. The ancient parish church of an area that will go into Wigan will be in the St. Helens district and that does not help matters.

I hope that, although his letter seems to indicate that he will not accept the Amendment, the Minister will agree that it does not imply the removal of thousands of £s of rateable value and the diminution of the number of people in it, reducing it to a parlous state. It is only a simple ward that affects only a few people but that does not mean that it is not important. I hope the Minister will say on balance and on reflection—and I agree that to a certain extent the argument is finely balanced—that in spite of his letters and comments he will accept the two Amendments.

7.0 p.m.

Photo of Mr Graham Page Mr Graham Page , Crosby

This group of Amendments can be divided into two kinds: first, those seeking a rearrangement of the metropolitan districts within the metropolitan county, and, secondly, those concerning the built-up areas one side or another of the boundary of the metropolitan county, including, for example, the Amendment of the right hon. Member for Newton (Mr. Frederick Lee) which would involve a move from a non-metropolitan county to a metropolitan county.

The Amendments mainly concern authorities on the boundary of the conurbation. That is perhaps natural, because so many of their residents have moved there from the big town in order to escape the big town. But many of the areas around the fringe of the greater Manchester conurbation which have been discussed today depend on the conurbation for work, culture, leisure, shopping and so on.

Generally, the principle adopted in drawing the boundary of the conurbation has been to find the area of continuous build-up. Before deciding, we not only look into the conurbation to see the build-up from it but also see whether there is any reasonable joining up of the suburb of a conurbation with a town outside. It may be that the suburb is really of the same character as a nearby town, as in the case of Whitworth, which is far more Bacup and Rossendale than Rochdale. On the other hand, it may be that miles of open country stretch out beyond the suburb, as in the case of Poynton.

In drawing the boundaries I have tried to apply the principle laid down in paragraph 32 of the White Paper, Cmnd. 4584, dealing with metropolitan-type structures. It says: The boundaries of these areas should include all the main area, or areas, of continuous development and any adjacent area into which continuous development will extend. We cannot say that the boundary will include all the development of the conurbation, but I think that, in applying that general rule we get a sensible set of local government areas when drawing both the county and the metropolitan county districts.

I should like to deal first with the rearrangements of the metropolitan districts within the metropolitan county. We have had the case of the Bury and Rochdale division. Originally, as in the Bill, the Government chose to put Bury and Rochdale together. That was discussed very fully by all the local authorities concerned at a meeting which the then Under-Secretary held last July. We might have thought from today's debate that it was entirely a new idea sprung on local authorities only yesterday. In fact, it has been the subject of debate in the area for a very long time. The whole of the meeting last July was taken up with the debate on whether Bury and Rochdale should be separate or should be combined in one metropolitan district.

It is interesting to note that during that meeting last July the Oldham representatives said that if we decided to split Bury and Rochdale they accepted that Middleton would go with Rochdale. The case they presented to me yesterday was that they needed Middleton because it had an industrial site in it and they relied on that site. It has an industrial site up in the north-east corner. The rest is residential overflow from Manchester. I was shocked when Oldham based their argument on the need for an industrial site in Middleton, when there is all that derelict and cleared land in Chadderton and Failsworth all along the road from Oldham. Of course, it is nice to take the soft option and have tens of acres of virgin soil on which to produce the industry, but I ask Oldham to turn to its derelict and cleared land. It will find many sites for industry there.

Photo of Mr James Lamond Mr James Lamond , Oldham East

Surely the Minister recalls that when he put that very point to the officials representing Oldham they denied that there were sites available on derelict land. They listed two very small sites which were available and said that the 100-acre sites and 50-acre sites, which are what developers look for nowadays, could be found only in Middleton.

Photo of Mr Graham Page Mr Graham Page , Crosby

I did not accept that denial. From my own knowledge of the area I think the division of Bury and Rochdale will produce two very good local government areas.

I hesitated about the matter in Committee, because it was a new proposition put to me, and I thought we had got it right in the Bill. But I have since studied it carefully with my colleagues in the Department of Education and Science and the Department of Health and Social Security, and we think they will make good separate local government areas with sufficient population in each. They are different communities, and we are giving them what they want.

The difficulty arises not only with Middleton but with Heywood, which runs down the centre and is a town of a different character from both Bury and Rochdale. If we could take Heywood out and put it 20 miles north into the country it would be a far better place, but it is between Bury and Rochdale, and we must decide where it should go. The hon. Member for Heywood and Royton (Mr. Joel Barnett) objected to small parts of Heywood being cut off and put into Bury. These are promontories which go almost into the centre of Bury, but I was persuaded by the argument the hon. Gentleman put to me yesterday and to the House today.

If the House accepts Amendments of my hon. Friend the Member for Bury and Radcliffe (Mr. Fidler) and of the hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. McCann), as I advise it to do, I give an undertaking to study carefully what we have done about these promontories. There could then be a correction in another place. My officials will study the matter with the council officials, and we shall get the matter right, as the people want it. It is a small point. Only a thousand people are involved, but I should like to get it right, and so I ask the House to accept those Amendments.

I should now like to go clockwise around the edge of the conurbation, dealing first with Ashby-in-Makerfield. The whole south ward of Ashby-in-Makerfield is far more closely linked with St. Helens than with Wigan.

Photo of Mr Thomas Price Mr Thomas Price , Westhoughton

The right hon. Gentleman means "Ashton-in-Makerfield".

Photo of Mr Graham Page Mr Graham Page , Crosby

I am sorry. I am perhaps trying to go too fast.

Photo of Mr Thomas Price Mr Thomas Price , Westhoughton

I thought the right hon. Gentleman had been running around Lancashire on a pair of roller skates and had familiarised with all the geography.

Photo of Mr Graham Page Mr Graham Page , Crosby

I apologise for getting it wrong, but I was trying to speak too quickly.

In the Bill the Government have put the whole of one ward where they believe it belongs, with St. Helens rather than with Wigan. The Amendment on this matter mistakenly follows the usual illusory fascination of a major road—in this case the East Lancashire road—as a boundary line. It would be wrong to carve up that south ward of Ashton-in-Makerfield in that way, and, therefore, I cannot advise the House to accept that Amendment.

The Amendments of the right hon. Member for Newton dealt with moving the southern wards of Golborne Urban District and the wards of Culcheth and Newchurch, into greater Manchester. The Government proposed the split of Golborne Urban District Council as they did because Golborne has overwhelmingly strong links with the metropolitan county, with greater Manchester, as the right hon. Gentleman said. The two wards concerned are separated by open country from the remainder of Golborne; its links are predominantly southwards towards Warrington and other areas in the new Cheshire.

Although the right hon. Gentleman's argument today was very persuasive, I cannot advise Parliament to accept that proposal. Even so, there is still another place where the matter can be considered. I wish the right hon. Gentleman had been able to discuss this with me in more detail before. I hope I may have the opportunity of doing so with him in the next week.

Photo of Mr Frederick Lee Mr Frederick Lee , Newton

The right hon. Gentleman implied that the open country provided one reason why he did not want to accept my Amendment to join the greater Manchester area. There is no open country between Newchurch and Leigh. In one way it is part of Leigh. The open country is to the south in the direction of Warrington.

Photo of Mr Graham Page Mr Graham Page , Crosby

The open country forms the division which we make in the Bill. I have offered to talk with the right hon. Gentleman on this.

Coming to Horwich and the Amendment of the hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. J. T. Price) to transfer part of the parish of Rivington, which comprises the land and buildings of the Rivington and Blackrod Grammar School, this is a small area which is not easily described by any ward or parish lines. It is a boundary which will have to be amended by the Boundary Commission, not only here but elsewhere; for example, Lever Park. One can leave this to the Boundary Commission and not ask us, across the Floor of Parliament, to draw lines which are not fully indicated on the map. Although the property transfer idea was scoffed at, it is practicable as a transitional idea.

Photo of Mr Thomas Price Mr Thomas Price , Westhoughton

Whilst I am disappointed at the right hon. Gentleman's negative approach to the Amendment as it stands, I hope I may have, coupled with the assurance I have already had from him in correspondence concerning the Boundary Commission, the assurance that, if he has any faith in the remedy that the school be dedicated and the property be dedicated to the metropolitan area, he will use the machinery of this Department to prevail upon Lancashire County Council to so dedicate it before the Boundary Commission has a further two or three years' gestation period before it reaches a solution by the conventional process.

Photo of Mr Graham Page Mr Graham Page , Crosby

I am not giving any further undertakings, certainly not those which will encourage me to bully a county council.

The Amendment proposed by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Darwen (Mr. Fletcher-Cooke) concerned Turton. The southern wards of Turton are a straight build-up from Bolton. One proceeds on the road from Bury to Bolton. When one arrives at Ainsworth one turns north and there is a continuous build-up until one reaches the top of the hill, Turton Towers. One then arrives at new country, Edgworth, which is one of the grey villages of that area. We have drawn a line at that point except in relation to the small Amendment proposed concerning half a dozen houses. I ask the House to accept that. My hon. and learned Friend has delineated it exactly. It corrects an anomaly.

So far as Ramsbottom is concerned, again there is a continuous build-up from Bury. Ramsbottom in separated from the towns to its north. It becomes a suburb of Bury, although as one comes down the A56 from Broadfield towards Bury on the east there is one wide open country reservoir. On the west along the Irwell there is a modern built-up development. We must keep Ramsbottom within Bury.

7.15 p.m.

It is different as one moves further to the east when one reaches Whitworth. There I was presented with a problem. One would take in a continuous build-up; then one would have to go out to Bacup and Rawtenstall. Someone looked for a real break between Rochdale and Bacup. It comes at the start of Whitworth, the southern boundary of Whitworth, where the character changes from the town of Rochdale to the country town of Whitworth. It is right to take Whitworth out of Rochdale.

Photo of Mr Ronald Bray Mr Ronald Bray , Rossendale

My right hon. Friend said that one should take Ramsbottom out. Is he referring to Ramsbottom as defined in the Bill?

Photo of Mr Graham Page Mr Graham Page , Crosby

Yes. It comprises the south-western wards of Ramsbottom to which I referred. That comprises the suburb of Bury.

Going clockwise I arrive at Poynton. Here it is difficult to accept the argument of my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton). As one leaves Stockport and arrives at Hazelgrove, which is part of Stockport, there is no real division. Along the road into Poynton, between the Fiveways Hotel at Hazelgrove and the Bull's Head at Poynton, the substantial area which my hon. Friend was talking about is Seven fields dominated by a few houses. Poynton is connected thoroughly, geographically and culturally, with Stockport. People from Poynton seek their theatres and so on within the conurbation. I cannot agree that one can hive off an area like that and leave it with Macclesfield, as there are many miles of open country between Poynton and Macclesfield.

Photo of Nicholas Winterton Nicholas Winterton , Macclesfield

My right hon. Friend and other hon. Members participated in the debate affecting Poynton. They have implied that much of what Poynton needs and uses is located in the Greater Manchester area. In many ways that is true. It is true of many areas which are not going to be located in the greater Manchester area under the local government reorganisation arrangements. So that does not hold much water.

Photo of Mr Graham Page Mr Graham Page , Crosby

If my hon. Friend will look both east and west from Poynton there is a continuous build-up to Wilmslow and to the east. It is not as if Poynton sticks out like a wart into the conurbation. It is part and parcel of that area. If we took Poynton out of the area it would amount to a cut-in.

I give an assurance about the green belt. It does not mean that because we include a certain amount of green belt within the conurbation it is not going to be protected. It is going to be protected whether in or outside the conurbation. My hon. Friend's area, Poynton, is blessed because it will have its own parish in the future. It is one of those few areas of a rural district which have a parish and which have been included in a conurbation.

I have proceeded round the fringe of the conurbation. I have not dealt with it in any detail as I should like to have done and as I have tried to do in discussion with hon. and right hon. Gentlemen in discussing these Amendments outside the Chamber. I should like to have gone into it in far more detail. There are some details where I have been able to meet the Amendments on the Order Paper and some which I must resist. We shall have a very reasonable county with very reasonable county districts.

Photo of Dr David Clark Dr David Clark , Colne Valley

When the right hon. Gentleman was referring to Poynton he made a succinct comment that Poynton would be one of the few areas that would retain a parish council within the metropolitan area. Is the right hon. Gentleman ruling out the possibility of urban district councils having parish council status within metropolitan counties?

Photo of Constance Monks Constance Monks , Chorley

May I ask the Minister whether in the consultations he has with regard to this school in Rivington I might be included, since Rivington happens to be in my constituency and I had hoped to have an opportunity to speak on this but was not called? I would like that to be borne in mind.

Photo of Mr Graham Page Mr Graham Page , Crosby

I will certainly give my hon. Friend that assurance. I know her interest in this area because it now falls within her constituency.

Photo of Hon. John Silkin Hon. John Silkin , Deptford

The House has spent——

Photo of Mr Eric Ogden Mr Eric Ogden , Liverpool, West Derby

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Is it customary for Front Bench speakers who have no direct geographical interest in an area to speak before other hon. Members on both sides who have such an interest have been called?

Photo of Miss Betty Harvie Anderson Miss Betty Harvie Anderson , Renfrewshire East

Order. I do not think that the hon. Gentleman would expect me to interfere in this matter. Mr. Silkin.

Photo of Mr Thomas Price Mr Thomas Price , Westhoughton

Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. In case any wrong impression is left among my colleagues or among hon. Members opposite, let me say, with regard to this school on which I spoke at some length—and I apologise for that—that in fact I observed the usual courtesies and gave personal notice to the hon. Member for Chorley (Mrs. Monks) that I intended to do so. I should not like anyone to think that I have interfered with something outside my province because I gave full notice.

Photo of Hon. John Silkin Hon. John Silkin , Deptford

I was about to say that the House has spent three hours and 20 minutes discussing these Amendments. I realise that I should have said three hours and 22 minutes. I do not believe that it is the wish of the House that we should go on very much longer in discussing them. What the House wants to do is to come to a decision, because if we do not do so soon it looks as though the Local Government Bill, 1972 might turn into the Local Government Bill, 1973.

What is interesting about this debate, which centres on the question of the Bury-Rochdale spread, is that in Committee a number of my hon. Friends and I asked the then Under-Secretary—this was in his helicopter days; now it is Concorde—to consider the representations made to him, because it seemed that he had not done so. He had given the Committee a strong and forceful basis for saying "No" without, we thought, listening sufficiently. We rather chided the Under-Secretary and the Minister for being too inflexible. I withdraw that now because I believe that the Minister has been extremely flexible and has done what a Minister should do; he has looked and looked again. Having said that, the rather odd situation arises in that while the Minister has been looking again, so, too, have I.

I have been looking at the arguments the Under-Secretary put in Committee, which were basically two-fold. First, he said there is a common interest between Bury and Rochdale apart from the fact that they are both in South-East Lancashire—if my geography is correct. The second strength of his argument was that if one divided Bury and Rochdale one would create three metropolitan districts with populations of 175,000, 208,000, and 224,000. I realise that some Amendments have made a slight difference in that. He went on to quote from the White Paper which says that the minimum population for a metropolitan district ought to be 250,000. There is certainly one English example of a metropolitan district with less than that. The Minister has chided me for suggesting the creation of metropolitan districts with populations below 250,000. These were the points he made.

What he said in Committee was: It would be misleading for me not to say that the Government's view remains that it would not be in the best interests, either of the local people or the form of local authority reorganisation which we are introducing, to accept this Amendment."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee, D, 14th December, 1971; c. 414.] If that is so we are entitled to ask what new factors have arisen. Apart from the

change from a helicopter to Concorde, only one othernew factor has been vouchsafed to us by the hon. Member for Bury and Radcliffe (Mr. Fidler). We on this side of the House thank him for his kind remarks about my hon. and sick Friend the Member for Rochdale (Mr. McCann).

The only new factor, as I understand it, is the publication of the book on strategic planning for the North-West which the hon. Member said took place in the early months of 1972, although he went on to say when I asked him that it has been in the Department since December, 1971. Assuming that those dates are correct, an interesting view of the home life of the Ministry emerges. It is that it is totally unaware of a giant survey on planning in the North-West——

Photo of Mr Graham Page Mr Graham Page , Crosby

I chaired a large meeting at Manchester to put this document on the bookstalls.

Photo of Hon. John Silkin Hon. John Silkin , Deptford

I rather suspected that that might be so. I do not think it is a new factor at all. In other words, what has happened is that the Minister, despite the strong case that was made in Committee, has changed his mind, not on external facts, not on new facts, not on any new considerations. I have studied the arguments again and again since Committee. Had there been new facts and considerations, I might have thought differently, but in view of the fact that the arguments were put so strongly in Committee by the then Under-Secretary, and that, to my mind, they stand today and because there are no new considerations, I shall have to ask my hon. and right hon. Friends to oppose the Amendment.

Question put, That the Amendment be made:—

The House divided: Ayes 138, Noes, 113.

Division No. 270.]AYES[7.30 p.m.
Adley, RobertBuck, AntonyDeedes, Rt. Hn. W. F.
Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)Bullus, Sir EricDrayson, G. B.
Atkins, HumphreyBurden, F. A.Eden, Rt. Hn. Sir John
Beamish, Col. Sir TuftonButler, Adam (Bosworth)Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Bell, RonaldChapman, SydneyElliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)
Benyon, W.Chataway, Rt. Hn. ChristopherElliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)
Berry, Hn. AnthonyChurchill, W. S.English, Michael
Biffen, JohnClarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)Farr, John
Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)Cockeram, EricFenner, Mrs. Peggy
Boscawen, RobertCooke, RobertFidler, Michael
Bossom, Sir CliveCooper, A. E.Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)
Bowden, AndrewCormack, PatrickFookes, Miss Janet
Bray, RonaldCrouch, DavidFortescue, Tim
Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)Crowder, F. P.Fowler, Norman
Bryan, Sir PaulDean, PaulFraser,Rt.Hn.Hugh(St'fford & Stone)
Gibson-Watt, DavidMadel, DavidSinclair, Sir George
Goodhart, PhilipMather, CarolSpeed, Keith
Gray, HamishMawby, RaySpence, John
Green, AlanMaxwell-Hyslop, R. J.Stanbrook, Ivor
Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)Meyer, Sir AnthonyStewart-Smith, Geoffrey (Belper)
Gummer, J. SelwynMiscampbell, NormanStoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.
Gurden, HaroldMitchell, David (Basingstoke)Stuttaford, Dr. Tom
Harrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)Moate, RogerTaylor, Frank (Moss Side)
Haselhurst, AlanMonks, Mrs. ConnieTebbit, Norman
Hawkins, PaulMontgomery, FergusThomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)
Higgins, Terence L.More, JasperThomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)
Holland, PhilipMurton, OscarThompson, Sir Richard (Croydon,S.)
Hordern, PeterNeave, AireyTrew, Peter
Hornsby-Smith, Rt.Hn.Dame PatriciaNormanton, TomTurton, Rt. Hn. Sir Robin
Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)Nott, Johnvan Straubenzee, W. R.
Hunt, JohnOnslow, CranleyWaddington, David
Iremonger, T. L.Oppenheim, Mrs. SallyWalder, David (Clitheroe)
Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)
Jopling, MichaelPage, Rt. Hn. Graham (Crosby)Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek
Kaberry, Sir DonaldParkinson, Cecil
Kellett-Bowman, Mrs. ElainePowell, Rt. Hn. EnochWall, Patrick
Kershaw, AnthonyPrice, David (Eastleigh)Ward, Dame Irene
Kimball, MarcusPym, Rt. Hn. FrancisWarren, Kenneth
King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)Quennell, Miss J. M.Weatherill, Bernard
Lane, DavidRaison, TimothyWells, John (Maidstone)
Legge-Bourke, Sir HarryRamsden, Rt. Hn. JamesWhite, Roger (Gravesend)
Le Merchant, SpencerRedmond, RobertWilkinson, John
Lloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)Woodhouse, Hn. Chrilstopher
Longden, Sir GilbertRoberts, Wyn (Conway)
Loveridge, JohnRossi, Hugh (Hornsey)TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Luce, R. N.Russell, Sir RonaldMr. Victor Goodhew and
McCrindle, R. A.Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)Mr. Marcus Fox.
McNair-Wilson, MichaelShelton, William (Clapham)
NOES
Allen, ScholefieldHeffer, Eric S.Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)
Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)Hooson, EmlynPavitt, Laurie
Ashton, JoeHoram, JohnPentland, Norman
Atkinson, NormanHughes, Mark (Durham)Prescott, John
Bagier, Gordon A. T.Irvine,Rt.Hn.SirArthur(Edge Hill)Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)
Bidwell, SydneyJeger, Mrs. LenaRees, Merlyn (Leeds, S.)
Blenkinsop, ArthurJenkins, Hugh (Putney)Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Boardman, H. (Leigh)Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)
Booth, AlbertJohnson, Walter (Derby, S.)Roper, John
Bottomley. Rt. Hn. ArthurJones, Dan (Burnley)Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)
Castle, Rt. Hn. BarbaraJudd, FrankShort,Rt.Hn.Edward(N'c'tle-u-Tyne)
Clark, David (Colne Valley)Kaufman, GeraldSilkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)
Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)Lamond, JamesSilverman, Julius
Cohen, StanleyLatham, ArthurSkinner, Dennis
Concannon, J. D.Lawson, GeorgeSpearing, Nigel
Corbet, Mrs. FredaLee, Rt. Hn. FrederickSpriggs, Leslie
Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)Leonard, DickStallard, A. W.
Crawshaw, RichardLewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley
Crossman, Rt. Hn. RichardMcGuire, MichaelTaverne, Dick
Dalyell, TamMcMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)Tinn, James
Davies, Ifor (Gower)McNamara, J. KevinTorney, Tom
Davis, Terry (Bromsgrove)Mahon, Simon (Bootle)Tuck, Raphael
Deakins, EricMarsden, F.Urwin, T. W.
Dell, Rt. Hn. EdmundMarshall, Dr. EdmundVickers, Dame Joan
Dormand, J. D.Mellish, Rt. Hn. RobertWalker, Harold (Doncaster)
Mendelson, JohnWallace, George
Dunn, James A.Mikardo, IanWeitzman, David
Edelman, MauriceMillan, BruceWells, William (Walsall, N.)
Evans, FredMitchell, R. C. (S'hampton, Itchen)Whitehead, Phillip
Faulds, AndrewMorgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)Whitlock, William
Fitch, Alan (Wigan)Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)
Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)Williams, Alan (Swansea, W.)
Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)Ogden, EricWilliams, W. T. (Warrington)
Foot, MichaelO'Halloran, MichaelWilson, Alexander (Hamilton)
Forrester, JohnO'Malley, BrianWinterton, Nicholas
Gilbert, Dr. JohnOrbach, Maurice
Griffiths, Will (Exchange)Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Hardy, PeterPannell, Rt. Hn. CharlesMr. Ernest G. Perry and
Harper, JosephPardoe, JohnMr. Ernest Armstrong.
Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)Parker, John (Dagenham)

Question accordingly agreed to.

Amendments made: No. 1021, in page 192, line 43, column 2, at end insert: 'District (cc)The county borough of Rochdale.In the administrative county of Lancaster—the borough of Middleton;the borough of Heywood, except the areas in district (c);the urban districts of Littleborough, Milnrow and Wardle'.

No. 1022, in page 193, column 2, leave out line 10—[Mr. Fidler.]

Photo of Mrs Barbara Castle Mrs Barbara Castle , Blackburn

I beg to move Amendment No. 13, in page 193, line 41, at end insert:

Lancashire

District (a) The county borough of BlackburnIn the administrative county of Lancaster—the boroughs of Accrington, Clitheroe, Darwen and Haslingden;the urban districts of Church, Clayton-le-Moors, Great Harwood, Oswald-twistle, Rishton and Withnell;the urban district of Turton except the area in Greater Manchester;the rural districts of Blackburn and Clitheroe.In the administrative county of Yorkshire, West Riding—the rural district of Bowland

District (b) The county borough of BlackpoolIn the administrative county of Lancaster—the boroughs of Fleetwood and Lytham St. Annes;the urban districts of Preesall, Poulton-le-Fylde, Thornton-Cleveleys and Kirkham;the rural district of Fylde;in the rural district of Garstang, the parishes of Great Eccleston, Hambleton, Out Rawcliffe, Pilling, Stalmine-with-Staynall.District (c)The county borough of Burnley.In the administrative county of Lancaster—the boroughs of Colne, Nelson, Bacup and Rawtenstall;the urban districts of Barrowford, Brierfield, Paliham and Trawden;the rural district of Burnley.In the administrative county of Yorkshire, West Riding—the urban districts of Barnoldswick and Earby;in the rural district of Skipton, the parishes of Bracewell, Brogden and Salterforth.

Disirict (d) The county borough of Preston.In the administrative county of Lancaster—the borough of Chorley;the urban districts of Fulwood, Walter-le-Dale, Longridge, Leyland and Adlington;the rural districts of Chorley and Preston;in the rural district of Garstang, the parishes of Barnacre-with-Bonds, Bilsborrow, Bleasdale, Cabus, Catterall, Claughton, Forton, Garstang, Inskip-with-Sowerby, Kirkland, Myerscough, Nateby, Nether Wyresdale, Upper Rawcliffe-with-Tarnacre and Winmarleigh.

District (e) In the administrative county of Lancaster—the boroughs of Lancaster and Morecambe and Heysham;the urban district of Carnforth;the rural districts of Lancaster and Lunesdale.District (f)The county borough of Southport.In the administrative county of Lancaster—the urban districts of Ormskirk and Skelmersdale and Holland;the rural district of West Lancashire except the area in Merseyside;the rural district of Wigan except the area in Greater Manchester.

Photo of Miss Betty Harvie Anderson Miss Betty Harvie Anderson , Renfrewshire East

With this Amendment we are to take the following Amendments:

No. 14, in page 193 leave out line 43 and insert: The county borough of Bootle.

No. 81, in page 201, leave out lines 15 to 25.

Photo of Mrs Barbara Castle Mrs Barbara Castle , Blackburn

I will move the Amendment briefly and I am doing so out of compassion as much for hon. Gentlemen opposite on the Government Front Bench as for my hon. Friends, because of course we could go on endlessly arguing the cases of our own particular areas. I hope that the Minister, if I am brief and if this debate is brief, will hold it as a credit to us and not as an indication that somehow we are not interested, because if that is to be the test of the measure of our enthusiasm he will be here not only all night but well into next week as well.

At this stage of a debate of this kind, anyone putting forward an Amendment of local application must almost have a sense of despair. The Government have been committed to a broad strategy of local government reform and they are buoyed up with a sense of the rightness of their own strategy. Therefore, it must be a very great temptation to dismiss individual Amendments dealing with particular areas as purely parochial.

I make a genuine plea to the Government to accept the Amendment, the effect of which will be to make Central Lancashire, that is area 10, into a petropolitan area. A powerful case for this was put by my hon. Friends in Committee and I thank them for making that case, although the Under-Secretary of State did not deal with it properly. We are grateful to the Chair for giving those of us who represent the county boroughs concerned a chance to add our plea to that which was so forcefully put by my hon. Friends.

It is inevitable, representing, as I do, the constituency of Blackburn, that I should look at this issue from the point of view of my own constituency, but I want to build up the picture from its foundations, on the basis not just of what my own constituents will suffer but of the whole principle of local government reform. On that basis, we find that the Government propose to destroy four substantial county boroughs, Blackburn. Blackpool, Burnley and Preston, and reduce an area which should be planned as a whole to a patchwork of small local authorities. No other non-metropolitan county in the Government's plan has this number of important county boroughs in its area.

I have read the Committee debates and the Government's White Paper, and it is far from clear on what criteria the Government have based their choice of the metropolitan areas. For heaven's sake. I ask the right hon. Gentleman, how can the Government include in their metropolitan areas South Yorkshire and West Yorkshire and omit Central Lancashire, when they are such comparable areas, having so many similar characteristics of urban concentration and unified interests? The Royal Commission carefully considered making Central Lancashire a metropolitan area, and there is reason to believe that if the plans for the Central Lancashire new town had been further advanced at that stage the Royal Commission might well have come down in favour of that solution.

The case for the coherent government of urban Central Lancashire, on which the future of the Central Lancashire new town depends, is surely unanswerable. Once the Government announced their intention to allow the development of the Central Lancashire new town to proceed, they made Central Lancashire into a metropolitan area. If local government reorganisation has any meaning at all, surely the area from Blackpool in the west to Burnley in the east must be planned as a whole, as a multi-centre urban area, with the Central Lancashire new town as a focal point under a first-tier authority dedicated to the development of this multi-community metropolitan complex and supported by strong second-tier authorities with a substantial range of functions.

I hope that the Government have not got so bored by this stage that they are closing their ears. The future of our local democracy is at stake, and I ask the Government to consider this on its merits. We are talking of a proud area of one million people, 80 per cent, of whom live in urban authority areas—areas that have known struggle, suffering and difficulty in the past years. This area has begun to pull itself up by its own bootstraps, and now it suddenly finds itself faced with a future which will downgrade many of its efforts and fill it with uncertainty. There is a great need for urban and industrial renewal. The problem can only be solved, for the sake of Britain as a whole, under a coherent structure of local government.

7.45 p.m.

Is it not absurd that, under this proposed pattern of local government, we should plonk down a new town in the heart of such an area and expect it to develop in isolation from its urban hinterland?

The right hon. Gentleman knows that there was great anxiety in North-East Lancashire about having a new town there. I know; I was a member of the Government when it was first broached. There was tremendous anxiety amongst all sections of the population and all types of association and organisation because it was felt that the new town would be a magnet for industry and population not so much from the south as from the neglected areas, the old cotton areas of North-East Lancashire. Our fears were only allayed—and I played my part in allaying them —by the promise, first, that the old cotton towns would get differential help for industry compared with the new town—that has gone under the Government's new regional plans—and secondly, that the old cotton towns, the old county borough areas, would get new local government status as unitary areas with even stronger local authority structure and powers, and that has gone too.

I warn the right hon. Gentleman that, despite the progress now being made with the Calder Valley road—he and I have discussed this and we welcome that progress—those fears are alive again. It is no good having a first class modern road at the heart of an area if at the same time we are diminishing the power of that area to help itself. After all, roads lead more ways than one, and enable people to travel away from as well as into the old towns unless the old towns are given every facility to develop as an equivalent magnet to the new town.

If the new town were to be developed, as we plead in the Amendment, as part of a comprehensive metropolitan area, then we should strike a better balance in the tug-of-war that is bound to ensue between the old cotton towns and the new growth point. Instead of that, what will happen to the old towns when the Government's proposals go through? What will happen to the old county boroughs of Blackburn and Burnley? I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Burnley (Mr. Dan Jones) is waiting to add his quota to the debate. Those once proud self-reliant areas will be left with fewer functions than any contemporary rural district council. They are to have their educational powers and their responsibility for personal social services taken away. They are told, "That is all right, you will be left with housing". That is a bad division of functions anyhow, but I will not stop to argue that general local government point.

By making them into ordinary districts under an ordinary county council, instead of metropilitan districts within a metropolitan area, we shall break up the close co-ordination that exists between slum clearance, area improvement and planning powers. This will also be the fate of the new town if the Government's proposals go through. Imagine setting up an important new growth point which is not to be an all-purpose authority. Imagine a new town set down in an area which is already heavily urbanised, facing problems of urban renewal and developing its infra-structure, and then giving it no powers to control its own destiny.

I emphasise that the length of my speech should not be regarded as an indication of the strength of my arguments or the strength of feeling in the area which I represent. Brevity is an act of consideration, not capitulation. What the Government are doing by these present proposals is reviving in North-East Lancashire all the old fears and hostilities about the new town. It has disheartened local authorities who have done more than any in the country in similar circumstances to renew their own lives and to build up their own sense of community.

I have a pile of letters which I could quote but which I shall spare the House. The letters show that the support for making this comprehensive urban part of Britain into a metropolitan area ranges from chambers of trade and commerce right through to trades councils and Labour Party regional councils in the neighbourhood.

In the interests of good local government, I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will please think again. There is nothing in his present proposals as a whole to justify him refusing to this proud and courageous part of our country the metropolitan area status which it deserves.

Photo of Mr Graham Page Mr Graham Page , Crosby

I hope that it will be convenient to intervene at this stage. Since this is a debate on principle it is probably better that I should make an opening statement now, rather than listen to individual constituency speeches and try to answer each constituency point. If there are points raised in the debate which need to be answered, I shall if the House will allow me to do so, take them at the end of this discussion.

I shall attempt to answer the questions of principle which were rightly put forward by the right hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle). She touched on three subjects into which I do not need to go in great detail. In regard to the division of functions and the merits of such a division, we have to consider what functions the area would exercise if it were a metropolitan district. I hope she will forgive me if I do not go in detail into those functions because she will appreciate that next week or the week after we shall be discussing them in great detail.

The right hon. Lady then raised the question of the merits of having the new town in central Lancashire. Again, although the existence of that new town when built will have a great influence on our decision in relation to this Amendment as to whether this should have metropolitan or non-metropolitan status now or in the future, I ask her to excuse me from going into the merits of having the new town there or not.

The third point raised by the right hon. Lady related to the need for urban renewal. We all recognise, and the Government have recognised in practical fashion, the need for urban renewal in towns in North-East Lancashire and partly in Central Lancashire. I do not think the question whether they are of metropolitan or non-metropolitan status affects the efforts which they will make for urban renewal. Many are now taking great advantage of the assistance offered by the Government, and to great effect. I know that at present the county boroughs have full powers to do that, but even those towns which are not county boroughs at present are accepting and putting to very good purpose the assistance which the Government are giving in urban renewal.

I cannot think that the difference in status will affect that situation. I hope that this matter is gaining in momentum, and, as I have said on frequent occasions in the area, I hope that the existing towns will make rapid progress with urban renewal and rehabilitation in the introduction of industry with such assistance as my colleagues in the Department of Trade and Industry can give, and that they will be fully revived before we even start building the new town. If that is so, we can gain great advantage out of the existence of the new town. There is no intention of the new town supplanting the existing towns.

Let us look at the principle of the setting up of a metropolitan county. The metropolitan county is an innovation in the provinces; it is an innovation in local government. We cannot judge it against existing examples because there is none. There is the Greater London Council, but I doubt whether anybody would suggest that that is particularly applicable to Lancashire. However, we can judge this proposal which we are now debating against the other metropolitan counties which we have set out in the Bill. The principle on which we propose to make those areas counties with metropolitan status is that they are predominantly urban in character and generally compact. This was said in paragraph 16 of the White Paper and is the principle we have tried to carry out in choosing the areas.

The right hon. Lady mentioned West Yorkshire and raised the question of whether it could be called compact. I must join issue with her on that point. West Yorkshire is of a different character to Lancashire in that, although it has a number of free-standing towns, they are far more compact than Lancashire. When we try to apply to Lancashire the phrase "predominantly urban in character" which is used in the White Paper, it becomes a little ridiculous. We think of the west of Lancaster and Lunesdale rural district, the Bowland Forest, West Lancashire rural district between Preston and Southport, the open spaces between Turton and Darwen, and we cannot call the area predominantly urban in character, nor can we call it compact.

If we were to place metropolitan status on this area at present, it would hold up our whole principle of metropolitan status to ridicule. The case in the Amendment is that the towns should be grouped in six districts and that those districts, because they would be of metropolitan district status, should have education and social service functions. That may be the desire of the present county boroughs which have those functions already, but the smaller towns in general do not want this grouping and feel that they may be overpowered by the county boroughs. The grouping which they would receive under the non-metropolitan status, if there were a non-metropolitan county, would be a grouping into 12 or 13 districts.

It is relevant to point out the representation which the people would have in their councillors under those two different sets of circumstances. If we were to group Lancashire into six metropolitan districts, the number of councillors in that area for the districts would be about 240 to 300—on the basis on which, say, greater Manchester or Merseyside have their councillors. If we leave the districts as they are in the Bill, and as the Boundary Commission has indicated, it will divide the area into districts, and the average size of a non-metropolitan district council is 50. That means, therefore, that there would be 650 councillors representing the area if this were a non-metropolitan county as opposed to only about 250 in the case of a metropolitan county.

At this stage, I believe that it is right to retain Lancashire as a non-metropolitan county. It means depriving the existing couny boroughs of direct rule in certain functions, but they will have through their councillors control of a far wider area in the carrying out of those functions.

In the Bill we are endeavouring to set up a structure of local government. It happens that at present certain areas fit into one type of structure and certain areas into another. That does not mean that in the next 10, 20 or 50 years an area will not graduate into the other structure of local government. Applying that to Lancashire, it may be that when the Central Lancashire new town is built there will be a compact area predominantly urban in character which will qualify as a metropolitan county. But that is not so at present, and, therefore, I must advise the House to reject the Amendment, although I have great sympathy with the intention behind it of producing a co-ordinated area in Lancashire, to get all the towns of Lancashire outside the Greater Manchester conurbation and the Mersey conurbation to work together. I think that they can do it best at present under non-metropolitan county status.

8.0 p.m.

Photo of Mr Daniel Jones Mr Daniel Jones , Burnley

I have listened carefully to the Minister, and although he has made his reply sound reasonable, I am quite sure that it will not be accepted as such by members of his own party in the county borough of Burnley. It is for that reason that I intend to support the Amendment so ably moved by my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle).

On this occasion, I am privileged to speak, not only for the right hon. Gentleman's own party in Burnley. The Minister must also be aware that I speak on behalf of the Association of Municipal Corporations. With respect to the right hon. Gentleman and his advisers, the AMC has far more experience of local government work than they have, and that association, too, supports the proposals contained in the Amendment.

I must speak of Burnley predominantly, and I begin by telling the Minister that to reduce the county borough of Burnley to the level of a district council, stripping it of all its local authority powers, is a shameful act. I have been in Burnley for some 14 years, and I have represented my constituency during periods when both main parties have operated from the town hall. In all aspects of local authority work the county borough council has a unique record. For that reason it is an act of vandalism to bring down these people to the level of a district council, robbing them of powers that they have enjoyed for more than 100 years.

As I have said already, this is a unique occasion, and I intend to make full use of it by speaking for the Labour Party in Burnley and for the right hon. Gentleman's party.

Recently, the Minister had the privilege of being in the county borough of Burnley. He met people from all over the area. He will remember the fraternal welcome that he had, and he will know the sense of purpose of those who are elected by the ordinary people to the town hall.

Perhaps I might refer again to the geographical differences between the proposals contained in our Amendment and the Government's own proposals. It is intended that the people of Burnley and of the constituency of the hon. and learned Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Waddington) will go into Preston whenever they have points which they wish to discuss with those at the town hall. That is a laborious and costly journey. In my opinion it is also a rather unnecessary one. We have heard it said that local authority representation no less than central Government representation should be such that it is close to the people. Yet the people who for more than 100 years have been able to walk to the town hall to discuss their affairs will have to make a long and costly journey to Preston.

The whole of North-East Lancashire from Blackburn to Barnoldswick is a natural enclave. It forms itself naturally into one comprehensive geophysical setting. Those are not only my opinions. If the Minister cares to look at reports offered to the previous Government and to that Government's conclusions in relation to these recommendations, he will see that this area was to be one unitary authority. That met with the approval of the people. I do not know how the Minister can now say that the proposals in the Amendment would not meet the wishes of the majority of people in the area. I admit that there are those who would oppose them. However, I chose my words carefully, and I have no doubt what the majority view would be.

Again I ask the Ministry why an area like Huddersfield, a county borough with characteristics very much like those of Burnley and Blackburn, is to retain its county borough status. Why is this distinction made? I will not venture too deeply into this matter because I hope that it will be argued more extensively by others of my hon. Friends. I turn instead to the White Paper.

In choosing its six metropolitan areas the White Paper states two brief requirements; namely, areas needing to be treated as entities for the purposes of planning, transportation and certain other services, and areas which are divisible into districts all of which are populous and compact. If that does not fit Blackburn and Burnley, I do not know what does. It is because of that that I ask the Minister to give these proposals further thought.

The Minister has already intimated in a previous debate that he would adopt the mood of flexibility. He even hinted that Ministers had some right to expect that when these issues went to the other place possibly they could get some change there. I should have been happier tonight if similar assurances had been offered on this issue, but it seemed that before hon. Members on this side had an opportunity of supporting my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn the right hon. Gentleman had closed his mind and almost told us that whatever we said could make little difference. Therefore, the Minister has not been fair.

I should like to quote from another of the Government's documents. I do not wish to detain the House unduly long and promise that this will be my last quotation. Taking into consideration the Government's recommendation, one can see from this document a significance which definitely applies to the merits of the Amendment: One aspect of this general question of interrelated services deserves special mention. Parts of Central Lancashire have a slum clearance and urban renewal task proportionately as great as that to be found in any of the conurbations. Most, possibly all, areas where a comparable concentration of urban blight exists will be governed under the metropolitan system. Two conditions are essential in the organisation for solving this desperately urgent problem, namely (1) integration of housing and social services (including education) within the redeveloped team, and (2) the closest co-ordination in the exercise of slum clearance area improvement and planning powers. It is, in our view, a daunting handicap, to say the least, to attempt this task with an organisation comprising separate housing and social services authorities and a planning authority with, in the case of Area 10, disparate and unrelated urban and rural objectives. The metropolitan authorities will be much better served in this respect. That is the nub of the case for Burnley and Blackburn.

I should like to refer to social services. Without being unduly aggressive, I challenge the Government to point to any area in the country which has dealt with social services with the kind of humanity that progressively the county borough of Burnley has. It is to be denied that.

Within recent months I have received a petition signed by 4,000 to 5,000 people from all over the County Borough of Burnley stating that as their county borough status had been taken away they were prepared to do away with the Noyna centre in Blackpool to which they send their disabled and infirm for sound convalescent treatment. I do not know of any petition in the years I have been in Burnley which has evoked such a toll of humanitarianism as that project. It would be shameful were it to end.

The Minister must not think that the comparative brevity of our contributions indicates that our concern is superficial. I shudder to think what the position of Burnley through the years would have been had it been operating under the county council. No local authority has had to bear progresively the burden that this county borough has borne, certainly in post-war years. Had it not been for Burnley's own imaginative efforts, its own cost, with both parties in solid support, its position would have been tragic. It is a county borough which at one time enjoyed a population of 120,000. The population now is just over 70,000. It would have been "Heaven help the area!" had it not been for the efforts of the county borough and the people elected to serve that closely knit, splendid community to preserve at least a basic whereby industrial expansion could conceivably take place. All this will come to an end under the Government's proposals.

8.15 p.m.

If the Minister does not feel he can respond to my overtures on behalf of the County Borough of Burnley, labelling me as an opponent anyhow and, therefore, against the Government, and cannot take into account the rather wiser deliberations of the AMC, which is certainly far more experienced at this kind of work than I am ever likely to be, perhaps he will take into consideration the claims made by his own political party in the County Borough of Burnley?

Photo of Mrs Elaine Kellett Mrs Elaine Kellett , Lancaster

I rise strongly to oppose the Amendment. The last thing my constituents in the proud city and county town of Lancaster, the urban district of Carnforth and the rural districts of Lancaster and Lunesdale want is to be included in a metropolitan district. They know that they are perfectly capable of conducting their own affairs and beg leave to continue to do so. I ask the Minister not to heed the Amendment, but to allow my constituents the proud independence they have always had.

Photo of Constance Monks Constance Monks , Chorley

I oppose the Amendment on behalf of the five local districts in my constituency because, if it were passed, the Lancashire County Council would virtually cease to exist, for the Government's proposals already truncate it and the Amendment would complete its annihilation. Nobody with any affection for Lancashire and regard for the extremely high quality of many of its services could possibly approve of the Amendment.

Central and Northern Lancashire is not a "metropolitan area" in any sense of these words. It contains large rural areas, some of them very attractive indeed, and the Lancaster County Council, by its overall planning power, has done a great deal to preserve and enhance these rural areas and yet supervise the provision of amenities and services second to none. Anybody with a close knowledge of Lancashire would know this.

Similar proposals put forward previously were bitterly opposed by the vast majority of the 40 district councils in Central Lancashire—I believe by 39 out of the 40—which shows loyalty to the county and gratitude for the services it has inaugurated.

This is one of the great county councils, which has been able to pioneer in many aspects of local government—in education, the police, motorways and welfare services—largely because it had high rateable value owing to its size and population.

The adoption of the Amendment would destroy the Secretary of State's concept of the proposed growth of the designated area of the Central Lancashire new town which is based on the closest co-operation between the county council and the new town corporation. The county planning department and the new town consultants have been working together on this project for seven to eight years, long before the new town corporation was formed, and now that the New Town corporation is getting down to business after two years, further delay by changing plans at this stage is absolutely unthinkable.

The whole planning theme has been and still is that a common centre must be avoided at all costs. In the Central Lancashire new town there are to be three separate growth areas based on the existing towns of Preston, Chorley and Leyland. Each will have something of its own individuality to give to the others, and we shall maintain a certain amount of green belt in between.

Perhaps I may link the Amendment with the previous one with regard to the school in Rivington. The area of Rivington and the country around it is just without the new town area, but it is in my constituency. It has been planned by the Lancashire County Council as a country park to be enjoyed by areas to the north as well as to the south. According to the guidelines given to us, a principle of the Bill is that a new district should comprise whole parishes or wards, and the county council could not entertain the transference of the whole of Rivington village and parish just to give greater Manchester another school.

Children will continue to cross boundaries from one area to another, and local authorities will continue to pay for their children going into other areas, so this school in Rivington does not present any great problems. To interfere at this stage with an area on which the county council has spent a considerable amount of money and which it has planned as a country park would be very wrong, indeed.

Photo of Mr David Waddington Mr David Waddington , Nelson and Colne

I shall not detain the House for more than a few moments, but it is my duty to express my outright and complete opposition to the proposals embodied and embedded in the Amendment.

I do not accept any of the arguments advanced either by the right hon. Lady the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) or by my friend—I cannot call him my hon. Friend—the Member for Burnley (Mr. Dan Jones). The right hon. Lady said that the new town must be an issue when we consider whether there should be a metropolitan area in Lancashire. To introduce a discussion on the new town is to drag as large a red herring across the debate as I have ever heard. The new town obviously presents North-East Lancashire with great problems, but it will continue to do so whether or not North-East Lancashire becomes part of a metropolitan area.

The right hon. Lady went on to say that over the years Lancashire—and North-East Lancashire in particular—had pulled itself up by its boot straps. Is the right hon. Lady suggesting that just because her pet scheme of having a unitary authority or a metropolitan area is not carried out the boot strap which has been so useful over the years will suddenly snap? What absolute rubbish.

The hon. Member for Burnley referred to industrial expansion and seemed to suggest that it would come to an end if the proposal for a central Lancashire metropolitan area were not put into effect. The truth of the matter is that over the years North-East Lancashire has created a most important and influential body called the North-East Lancashire Development Committee which has done a great deal of work in the way of attracting new industry to that area. It is a classic example of the way in which small authorities can co-operate and work together. It does not need a monolithic structure such as a metropolitan area comprised of monolithic metropolitan districts to get that sort of co-operation.

Photo of Mr Daniel Jones Mr Daniel Jones , Burnley

All that the hon. and learned Gentleman says is true, but he should remember that that has been done with power which the area is not likely to have in the future.

Photo of Mr David Waddington Mr David Waddington , Nelson and Colne

I do not accept that. To accept it is to suggest that the Lancashire County Council, far from encouraging the promotion of industrial expansion, is an impediment to it, and nothing could be further from the truth. A top tier authority will be working with us to get the industrial expansion that we want.

I can understand people involved in local government in, say, Burnley, bitterly resenting the loss of county borough status and thinking that the next best thing is to be the centre of a metropolitan district, but I cannot for the life of me see what the people, as distinct from the politicians, in, for example, Nelson and Colne, would get out of becoming mere appendages of Burnley.

Last summer posters and leaflets suddenly began to appear in Nelson and Colne. They were stuck on the town hall door, and they bore the legend "Keep Local Government Local". A number of my constituents were naive enough to believe that those responsible for the posters and stickers meant what they were saying. They believed that Nelson Council had suddenly seen the light and was supporting the Government's proposals, which are to make local government local, certainly in Nelson and Colne. Imagine their surprise when they discovered that the subtle originators of the posters wanted precisely the opposite. They wanted a Burnley take-over of the surrounding district, and that is something which is not acceptable to other than the tiniest minority of my constituents.

Some have tried to say that that slogan is justified because county hall is further away in terms of miles than Burnley town hall. People who say that ignore the fact that people in Nelson and Colne are used to the two-tier system. They are used to looking to Nelson town hall for certain things, and to the county for other things.

Most of all, the people who try to support that slogan ignore the fact that on the county council the representatives of small authorities such as Nelson and Colne, Lancaster and many others will find themselves alongside representatives of similar sized local authorities with similar problems and will be able to find common cause with those representatives. On a greater Burnley Council the representatives of Nelson and Colne would not matter two hoots. They would be outvoted on every important issue, and that is the principal reason why people like myself could never support this proposal.

I shall vote against the Amendment, and I shall do so in the knowledge that I am doing the right thing by my constitutents. In case there should be any doubt about the situation on the various councils in my constituency, let me tell the House that every local authority in my Division, apart from Nelson, is opposed to this proposal to bring about a central Lancashire metropolitan area. Even Nelson and Colne has not always been in favour of a metropolitan area. It has investigated all sorts of possibilities over the months, if the Press has been right. At the beginning also it was against a metropolitan area and at that time it was asking for a county district of Nelson and Colne, which I am quite sure we shall get and which I am sure would be the right solution.

8.30 p.m.

Photo of Mr Gordon Oakes Mr Gordon Oakes , Widnes

The right hon. Gentleman the Minister will agree that in all the Amendments we have put forward, both in Committee and at Report stage, we on this side of the House have been trying to find the best and most appropriate form of local government for a particular area.

I support entirely what was said by my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle), that the remaining area of Lancashire clearly ought to be a metropolitan county area.

The right hon. Gentleman sought to draw a very dangerous distinction. He represents a Lancashire constituency, as do I, and he will possibly realise the danger of what he did. He drew a comparison between Lancashire and Yorkshire, and the West Riding of Yorkshire at that. The right hon. Gentleman appears to think Yorkshire much more compact than Lancashire and that, therefore, there is a big difference between the type of county structure we should have.

What about the moors of Skipton and around Keighley? What about "Ikley Moor bah't 'at?"How can one argue to the people in the Lancashire boroughs of Burnley, Preston and Blackpool that they are less compact boroughs than some of the Yorkshire areas in the West Riding which have become metropolitan counties? How can one explain to citizens of Blackburn or of Burnley why their authority should cease to be a metropolitan district when a few miles away Bolton remains a metropolitan district? How does one explain the same thing to the people of Preston when Wigan remains a metropolitan district? How does one explain to the people of Blackpool, that great seaside resort well known to both sides of the House from our conferences, that Southport, her rival holiday resort south of the Rubble, should be a metropolitan district but that Blackpool should not?

There seems no rhyme or reason in keeping Lancashire as a non-metropolitan county. The right hon. Gentleman said that there would be between 240 and 300 councillors if we had metropolitan status in Lancashire, whereas 50 or 60 could do the job. I do not submit to the idea that more means better, or that less means better. This compact urban area has many problems of urban redevelopment. Some of the towns have a higher proportion of old people than many other towns in Britain. In this area it is essential to have more councillors who are easily and readily accessible to the electorate and who are easily to be found.

The difficulty of this proposal is that it centralises most of the main functions of local government away from their traditional centres in Burnley, Blackburn, Preston and Blackpool. It removes them all to the county hall at Preston. The hon. Lady the Member for Chorley (Mrs. Monks), who is no longer present in the Chamber, put her finger on the matter, perhaps inadvertently, when she said that if the Amendments were accepted Lancashire County Council as we know it would cease to exist. That is the reason why Lancashire has been left a non-metropolitan county whereas the other parts, such as Merseyside, Manchester and West Yorkshire, become metropolitan counties.

I am not detracting from Lancashire County Council. Indeed, I dare not do that because my wife is a Lancashire county councillor. But the problems of Lancashire County Council should not be increased at the expense of such great community boroughs as those which have been mentioned today.

One of the factors which, perhaps, the Government do not realise is contained in the word used repeatedly by my right hon. Friend, the word "pride"—not arrogance but pride. It is proper, decent, Lancashire civic pride, pride in one's town and urban area, and in the things one's town has accomplished. Nation wide we hear of the Burnley Building Society and the Blackburn Building Society, and the savings banks of the North. These are names well known throughout the country. They arise from civic pride, which is felt just as much by the right hon. Gentle-

man's supporters in those towns as it is felt by those of my hon. Friends.

It is a matter of regret that we have not heard today from two of those great towns which are represented by hon. Members. We have not heard from Blackpool about what the Conservative-controlled council at Blackpool thinks of the proposal to demote it to a district council. We have not heard from Preston—proud Preston—in this year of all years, the year of the Preston Guild, when it will find itself demoted, from its ancient splendour as a civic centre, to a district council.

We on this side cannot be satisfied with the replies given by the right hon. Gentleman on the question whether Lancashire county be a metropolitan county. We believe that it should be a metropolitan county and that some of these great districts in Lancashire should be metropolitan districts with the powers of metropolitan districts—library powers, planning powers, and, most important of all, education powers—because of the way in which they have led the rest of the country in these matters. We believe that these towns do not want to be demoted to the status of little more than parish councils. I must ask my right hon. and hon. Friends to divide the House.

Question put, That the Amendment be made:—

The House divided: Ayes 105, Noes 128.

Division No. 271.]AYES[8.40 p.m.
Albu, AustenDunn, James A.Lyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)
Allen, ScholefieldEdelman, MauriceMcGuire, Michael
Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)English, MichaelMcMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)
Ashton, JoeEvans, FredMcNamara, J. Kevin
Atkinson, NormanFletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)Mahon, Simon (Bootle)
Bagier, Gordon A. T.Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)Marsden, F.
Bidwell, SydneyFoot, MichaelMarshall, Dr. Edmund
Blenkinsop, ArthurForrester, JohnMellish, Rt. Hn. Robert
Boardman, H. (Leigh)Gilbert, Dr. JohnMendelson, John
Booth, AlbertHardy, PeterMikardo, Ian
Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)Harper, JosephMitchell, R. C. (S'hampton, Itchen)
Castle, Rt. Hn. BarbaraHarrison, Walter (Wakefield)Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)
Clark, David (Colne Valley)Heffer, Eric S.Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)
Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)Horam, JohnOakes, Gordon
Cohen, StanleyHughes, Mark (Durham)Ogden, Eric
Concannon, J. D.Irvine,Rt.Hn.SirArthur(Edge Hill)O'Halloran, Michael
Corbet, Mrs. FredaJeger, Mrs. LenaO'Malley, Brian
Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)
Crawshaw, RichardJohnson, Walter (Derby, S.)Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles
Crosland, Rt. Hn. AnthonyJones, Dan (Burnley)Pardoe, John
Crossman, Rt. Hn. RichradJudd, FrankParker, John (Dagenham)
Dalyell, TamKaufman, GeraldParry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)
Davies, Ifor (Gower)Lamond, JamesPavitt, Laurie
Davis, Terry (Bromsgrove)Latham, ArthurPentland, Norman
Deakins, EricLawson, GeorgePrescott, John
Dell, Rt. Hn. EdmundLee, Rt. Hn. FrederickPrice, J. T. (Westhoughton)
Dormand, J. D.Leonard, DickRoberts, Albert (Normanton)
Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)Tinn, JamesWhitlock, William
Roper, JohnTorney, TomWilley, Rt. Hn. Frederick
Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)Tuck, RaphaelWilliams, W. T. (Warrington)
Silkin, Rt. Hn. John (Deptford)Urwin, T. W.Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)
Silverman, JuliusVickers, Dame JoanWilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)
Skinner, DennisWalker, Harold (Doncaster)
Spearing, NigelWallace, GeorgeTELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Spriggs, LeslieWells, William (Walsall, N.)Mr. Ernest Armstrong and
Summerskill, Hn. Dr. ShirleyWhitehead, PhillipMr. Ernest G. Perry.
Taverne, Dick
NOES
Adley, RobertGrylls, MichaelPercival, Ian
Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)Gummer, J. SelwynPowell, Rt. Hn. J. Enoch
Astor, JohnGurden, HaroldPrice, David (Eastleigh)
Atkins, HumphreyHarrison, Col. Sir Harwood (Eye)Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis
Beamish, Col. Sir TuftonHaselhurst, AlanQuennell, Miss J. M.
Bell, RonaldHawkins, PaulRaison, Timothy
Benyon, W.Holland, PhilipRamsden, Rt. Hn. James
Berry, Hn. AnthonyHolt, Miss MaryRedmond, Robert
Biffen, JohnHordern, PeterReed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)
Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame PatriciaRees-Davies, W. R.
Bossom, Sir CliveHowell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)Roberts, Wyn (Conway)
Bowden, AndrewHunt, JohnRossi, Hugh (Hornsey)
Bray, RonaldIremonger, T. L.Russell, Sir Ronald
Bryan, Sir PaulJopling, MichaelShaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)
Buck, AntonyKaberry, Sir DonaldShelton, William (Clapham)
Bullus, Sir EricKellett-Bowman, Mrs. ElaineSinclair, Sir George
Burden, F. A.Kimball, MarcusSpeed, Keith
Butler, Adam (Bosworth)King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)Spence, John
Chapman, SydneyKing, Tom (Bridgwater)Stanbrook, Ivor
Churchill, W. S.Lane, DavidStewart-Smith, Geoffrey (Belper)
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)Legge-Bourke, Sir HarryStoddart-Scott, Col. Sir M.
Cockeram, EricLe Marchant, SpencerStuttaford, Dr. Tom
Cooke, RobertLloyd, Ian (P'tsm'th, Langstone)Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)
Cordle, JohnLoveridge, JohnTebbit, Norman
Cormack, PatrickLuce, R. N.Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)
Costain, A. P.McCrindle, R. A.Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. (Dundee, E.)
Crouch, DavidMadel, DavidTrew, Peter
Crowder, F. P.Mather, CarolTurton, Rt. Hn. Sir Robin
Dean, PaulMawby, Rayvan Straubenzee, W. R.
Drayson, G. B.Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.Waddington, David
Eden, Rt. Hn. Sir JohnMeyer, Sir AnthonyWalder, David (Clitheroe)
Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)Miscampbell, NormanWalker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)
Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)Walker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek
Farr, JohnMoate, RogerWarren, Kenneth
Fenner, Mrs. PeggyMonks, Mrs. ConnieWeatherill, Bernard
Fidler, MichaelMontgomery, FergusWells, John (Maidstone)
Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)More, JasperWilkinson, John
Fookes, Miss JanetMurton, OscarWinterton, Nicholas
Fowler, NormanNormanton, TomWoodhouse, Hn. Christopher
Goodhart, PhilipOnslow, Cranley
Goodhew, VictorOppenheim, Mrs. SallyTELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Gray, HamishOwen, Idris (Stockport, N.)Mr. Tim Fortescue and
Green, AlanPage, Rt. Hn. Graham (Crosby)Mr. Marcus Fox.
Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)Parkinson, Cecil

Question accordingly negatived.

8.45 p.m.

Photo of Mr Simon Mahon Mr Simon Mahon , Bootle

I beg to move Amendment No. 385, in page 193, leave out line 43 and insert: The county borough of Southport.

Photo of Wing Commander Sir Robert Grant-Ferris Wing Commander Sir Robert Grant-Ferris , Nantwich

With this Amendment we shall discuss the following Amendments: No. 386, in page 194, leave out line 4 and insert:

The county boroughs of Liverpool and Bootle.

No. 15, in page 194, leave out lines 5 and 6.

No. 966, page 194, leave out lines 7 to 20 and insert:

'District (c) The county borough of St. Helens—In the administrative county of Lancaster—the urban districts of Haydock, Newton-le-Willows and Rainford;the urban district of Billinge-and-Winstanley except the areas in Greater Manchester.In the urban district of Ashton in Makerfield, the South Ward.In the rural district of Whiston, the parishes of Windle, Eccleston, Rainhill and Bold, except the area in Cheshire.

District (cc) In the administrative County of Lancaster—the urban districts of Huyton-with-Roby, Kirkby and Prescot;the rural district of Whiston except the areas in district (c) and Cheshire.In the rural district of West Lancashire, the parish of Simonswood'.

No. 472, in page 194, line 11, leave out 'Newton-le-Willows'.

No. 16, in page 194, line 18, leave out 'district (b) and'.

No. 17, in page 194, leave out line 24 and insert: 'the boroughs of Bebington and Ellesmere Port'.

No. 473, in page 199, line 29, at end insert 'Newton-le-Willows'.

No. 383, page 201, line 16, column 2, leave out 'and Preston' and insert 'Preston and Southport'.

Photo of Mr Eric Heffer Mr Eric Heffer , Liverpool, Walton

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Is there likely to be a separate vote on Amendment No. 15?

Mr. Deputy-Speaker:

I think that in broad principle Mr. Speaker felt that hon. Members should have what votes they wanted. In the outcome of events, the hon. Gentleman may feel that he does not want a Division. I do not know.

Photo of Mr Eric Heffer Mr Eric Heffer , Liverpool, Walton

Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. There is a feeling among some Merseyside Members, certainly among the Liverpool Members, that we would wish to vote against Amendment No. 15.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker:

I ask the hon. Gentleman not to commit me completely at the moment. I will bear in mind what he has said.

Photo of Mr Michael McGuire Mr Michael McGuire , Ince

Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I was under the impression that exactly the opposite had been pronounced—that, since there are so many Amendments, individual Amendments in a group could not be put because it would be so time-consuming. I certainly do not want to deprive anyone of the opportunity to vote on an individual Amendment—I think that it would be a good thing in many cases—but I was told, when I raised this question with the Chair earlier in relation to a modest Amendment of my own, "You can vote only on the main Amendment in the group. "There does, therefore, seem to be a contradiction. If it is the case that a vote can take place on Amendment No. 15, that will be welcome news to many hon. Members concerned.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker:

There may be some slight misapprehension in my mind about this which I would like a little time to clear up. If I may, I will announce something to the House shortly.

Photo of Mr James Dunn Mr James Dunn , Liverpool Kirkdale

Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. I appreciate that you need some time to take advice on the guidance given by Mr. Speaker. Nevertheless, I would point out to you that there are hon. Members on this side of the House, if not opposite, who would wish to take issue on Amendment No. 15 even if the Government were to accept it. We reserve our right to show our disagreement.

Photo of Wing Commander Sir Robert Grant-Ferris Wing Commander Sir Robert Grant-Ferris , Nantwich

I understand what the hon. Gentleman means.

Photo of Mr Simon Mahon Mr Simon Mahon , Bootle

This is a speech which I would rather not have made. It would have been unnecessary if the Government had been consistent about No. 11(a) District. Equally, I am aware of the time factor and that so many of my hon. Friends from Merseyside want to speak. I shall therefore be as brief as possible, but this is a very important Amendment for the people of Merseyside and my constituency in particular.

The constituencies of the Minister for Local Government and Development and mine are contiguous. When I welcomed the White Paper I was happy that the great new port of Crosby was being associated with the great ports of Bootle and Liverpool, in some ways. I find the Government's change of mind somewhat disconcerting, therefore. It is not usual for us to quote our own speeches in the House, but I feel it to be necessary in this case. In the debate on the White Paper, I said: I think the Secretary of State is right in his adjudication on Merseyside. It would have been a great mistake to put the County Borough of Bootle and the County Borough of Liverpool in the same setup. We are rather pleased that he has given us the opportunity of land and advantages coming from the association"—[Official Report, 19th May, 1971; Vol. 817, c. 1337.] Then I took care to mention every district because I thought there would be a change and I mentioned Crosby, Thornby, Litherland, Antree, Altcar, Aughton, Downholland, Ince Blundell, Lydiate, Maghull, Melling, Netherton, Sefton, and Thornton. I finished by saying that if there were an election in the area tomorrow the Labour Party would not be in control. I repeat what I pointed out then, that anyone who plans the future of local government on the basis of partisanship is doing the country an injustice.

My attitude to the White Paper stands and my attitude to the partisanship, which I believe is now being shown, stands also. We are being wooed from both sides. There was a time when Liverpool wanted us. Liverpool has been constant in its wooing. But it is only lately that Southport has loved us in any way. Southport is like the Miller's Daughter we sang about at school. In those days Bootle people considered Southport to be a haughty lass who was certainly longing to be of a higher class. In all the problems we had in Bootle and Merseyside Southport eschewed us and gave us no help nor cognisance nor comfort.

When I came out of the Army and returned to my native town where I still live the medical officer of health, Dr. Wood, told me we had the highest maternal mortality rate in the country, the highest incidence of tuberculosis, the highest birth rate and the lowest death rate. Those were the problems that Bootle had to solve within the confines of the Bootle county borough. We were therefore willing to take assistance from anyone who would give it but it was not forthcoming at the time.

The situation in Bootle has changed. It has become a prosperous town—though not as prosperous as we would like—and the whole social and economic face of the town has changed as a result of the hard work we have done there. I hope that we can all claim to be patriotic about our localities and about our country. I was born in the middle of Bootle and have spent the whole of my political life in the town. It has a good authority which is kind, humane and forward-looking. That is quite proper because the motto of the town is Respice, Aspice, Prospice—look to the past, consider the present, plan for the future.

In all these circumstances I ask the Minister to reconsider what he is doing to us. We are perfectly happy to go on as we are. It is only because the Government have amended their original plans that it is necessary for me to change my attitude and my speech from that which welcomed their previous wishes. If the right hon. Gentleman will nod now and say the old District 11(a), which contained Bootle, Crosby and the other districts but not Southport, still stands, I will stop my speech. But he obviously will not agree to that and I am not expecting him to.

The council at Bootle is not now unanimous on the matter. A change of heart by the Government has caused anxiety, and I am seeking to ventilate the feelings of my people. The majority party is in Bootle is upset over the matter as the minority. The council passed a resolution accepting the original basis of the White Paper. Since then there have been elections, and the chief whip of the majority party has written to me saying Strong feelings were also expressed at the inclusion of Southport in the proposed Metropolitan Merseyside Council. It was agreed to dissociate ourselves from Southport and if possible identify ourselves with Liverpool in preference to Southport. Anybody who knows the history of Merseyside will understand what a revolutionary suggestion that is. The historical opposition to Liverpool was not because we did not understand Liverpool and not because we did not have an affinity with Liverpool. It was because we knew the immensity of the problems of Merseyside. We in Bootle felt that we could get on with our share of them better as a separate authority and that Liverpool could get on better with hers as she was. Bootle has done remarkably well—better than the city of Liverpool in many ways. I believe that our opposition was right then, and that my opposition to the inclusion of Southport now is right. We were proved right then, and we shall be proved right again.

I do not know what the political complexion of the places in question will be in 25 years' time. It would be a very good man who could say whether the Labour Party or Tory Party will be in existence then, or what the position will be in local government. I am not introducing the political aspect. If anyone thinks I am being political, I deny it straight away. I should like the same assurance from the Government that the new 11(a) District has no semblance of political thought behind it.

I remember hearing the late Aneurin Bevan asking the House "Why look into the crystal ball when we can read it in the book?" We know what Southport's attitude has been in the past. They are nice people there. They have nice manners, and live in a very nice way. No doubt they are very fine people. I am talking about the different character of thearea. We have our own problems. I believe that the old 11(a) gave an ideal opportunity to solve the problems, and that the Government are now doing us a particularly bad injustice.

I know that Southport people are not too happy about the new plan either. Many of them do not want to come in with Bootle. Southport would do better to go into other areas which are similar in character. It will not be too long before the Ribble Estuary is crossed. That will open up all sorts of new avenues. I am sure that is in the Secretary of State's mind even today. What a change would take place if the Ribble Estuary were opened! Would not that make Southport, Blackpool, Preston and the other places there have more in common with each other than with the Merseyside area?

An undesirable degree of stress is already showing in the meetings between Southport, Bootle and other authorities, not only between elected personnel but between non-elected personnel. I am not saying that such problems are insurmountable.

What I want for my people, and what I, as a long-standing Member of Parliament and long-standing local government man, am entitled to ask for on their behalf, is the best form of local government that I can help to give them. The opportunity is not being given.

I shall not quote all the figures which could prove that Southport's argument is fallacious. Southport residents working in Southport number 26,740—these are 1966 figures—or 78 per cent. of the working population. Only 2,790 work in Liverpool, 8 per cent.; on Merseyside and District (a) 2,290, 7 per cent., and in other districts 2,038. That explodes the idea being promulgated that Southport is a great commuter place for Liver- pool. Southport has more in common with Preston and Manchester than Liverpool.

I do not wish to push the Amendment concerning Liverpool. We are happy to stay in our own backyard. We do not wish to join Southport. We are not breaking our necks to go in with Liverpool. A decision has been forced upon us because of the attitude of the Government.

I do not believe there is a diabolical plot concerning Bootle. I am asking for the best thing. We must make up our minds. It is not an easy choice to make. There is a change taking place. The right hon. Gentleman is the Member for the best part of the finest port in the world; the new Seaforth complex is one of the finest things from the point of view of maritime interest I have ever laid my eyes on. The right hon. Gentleman has the honour to represent that area. In my constituency we have the great Gladstone Docks. The right hon. Gentleman and I have a lot in common. The right hon. Gentleman understands my plea. In Liverpool the South End Docks are closing. They comprise an area 3½ miles in length. The whole of the maritime and commercial aspects of Merseyside are changing.

I should like that problem to be looked at again. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman has made up his mind. He knows the sincerity with which I am pleading for my own people. We recommend that Crosby and Bootle should not be separated. There is a natural character which has grown between us.

The right hon. Gentleman is foisting upon us something which is out of character with the Merseyside, which he and I know so well. Only the best is good enough. If he cannot leave us alone—and there may still be some chance of the Bill not going through—then he should put us back to what was originally planned in the original 11A District. Southport should be left out for its own sake, its future and prosperity. If not, the advantages or disadvantages of Liverpool joining Bootle should be considered.

Photo of Wing Commander Sir Robert Grant-Ferris Wing Commander Sir Robert Grant-Ferris , Nantwich

I should apologise to the House in general and to the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) in particular for misleading him. I have since ascertained what are Mr. Speakers intentions. A Division should be allowed upon the first Amendment of each group and also upon any Amendment which it subsequently turns out the Government can accept.

Photo of Mr Gordon Oakes Mr Gordon Oakes , Widnes

I am very glad to hear the ruling that Mr. Speaker has given on this matter.

There are three separate Amendments with which I shall deal. Two of them could be linked: the removal of the parish of Heywood, which is at present in the Urban District of Whiston, from the proposals of the Government to put it in District (b), that is the present City of Liverpool; and the division of District 11(c) into two separate districts. They are Amendments Nos. 15 and 966, which form one Amendment.

The other quite separate Amendment is Amendment No. 17 which asks for the inclusion of the Borough of Ellesmere Port in the Merseyside County, instead of, as at present, in the county of Cheshire. The central feature of the Amendment is to provide a better unit of local government, as far as it is practicable for this House to do so, and at the same time, whenever possible, to take into account the clearly expressed and declared wishes of the inhabitants of any area as to the area to which they wish to belong. I begin with Amendment No. 17, leading with Ellesmere Port, and ask the Government to put it back into the Merseyside area.

I say "put it back" because this borough of Ellesmere Port was originally, not only under the Maud proposals but under the Government's White Paper proposals, included in the Merseyside area. Subsequently the Bill came along and excluded Ellesmere Port and put it in the county of Cheshire. No one in the House or the Committee has given an adequate reason why the Government changed their mind between the White Paper and the publication of the Bill and moved Ellesmere Part into Cheshire.

Ellesmere Port is a growing and thriving town which rests on the banks of the Mersey and the Manchester Ship Canal. Yet it has been decided that this should not be part of the county of Merseyside. That is surely a strange contention, par- ticularly when one looks at the industries in Ellesmere Port. It is a town of great oil refineries, at Stanlow, of expanding oil refineries; it is a town which has the Standard Triumph car factory. It is a town which has links with Merseyside in that many people have gone from there to Ellesmere Port to work and to make their homes there. Houses have been built to take the overspill from the Liverpool area. I have some personal knowledge of the area because until 1959 I was the parliamentary candidate for Bebington, which is next door to Ellesmere Port. I can assure the Minister and the House that the links with Ellesmere Port are very definitely along the south bank of the River Mersey.

Ellesmere Port is linked directly with Bebington and Birkenhead and Wallasey. It is in no way linked with Chester and the rural county of Cheshire, yet it is being put, for no good reason that has been adequately explained, into the Cheshire County Council. Clearly in the interests of good, viable local government, Ellesmere Port ought to be restored to the area where the White Paper and the Maud proposals put it, that is, the Merseyside metropolitan district, and not the county of Cheshire, where the Government have so strangely putit, between the White Paper and the printing of the Bill.

I come to what is possibly a much more contentious matter, although a matter on which I am led to believe by Press reports we might have some agreement because I understand from those reports that the Minister said, to use his phrase, that he was "minded to accept the Amendments". This matter concerns District 11(c) and not District 11 (b). It is proposed to divide District 11(c) for a number of reasons, the first of which is size. In accepting a previous Amendment moved by the hon. Member for Bury and Radcliffe (Mr. Fidler), the right hon. Gentleman said that the criterion of 250,000 is not sacrosanct. Indeed, in paragraph 12 of the White Paper the Government made it clear that if there were special reasons in an area they would depart from their figure of 250,000. On this division of 11(c) into two separate districts, I am suggesting to the House and to the Government that there are very abundant special reasons.

First of all, on the question of population alone, this division in the way Amendment No. 966 sets out, would give each authority just under 200,000. But so far as 11(cc) is concerned, that is the district based on Huyton, I think I can say without fear of any challenge at all that this is an area which is growing in population. Both on natural grounds, by the number of children per family, and by importing population into the area, it is one of the fastest-growing, if not the fastest-growing, district in the whole of Great Britain. The figure of just under 200,000 for that area is one that even during the long and sometimes tedious course of this Bill might be surpassed. The population is explosive in that area. There is a very high rate of population in 11(c), the area we suggest should be based on St. Helens in Amendment No. 966.

Therefore, I do not think that the Government have a great deal to worry about on the question of population, because these districts would be smaller than some of the other Merseyside districts and considerably smaller than District (b), the City of Liverpool, but they would be bigger than many metropolitan districts in the rest of the country.

There is another very good reason and I think that the right hon. Gentleman, who represents a Lancashire seat, is very well aware of this—why the forced union of all these urban districts in this part of Merseyside should be set asunder and two separate districts set up. It is the total difference in the character of the areas. St. Helens, Haydock, Billinge-and-Winstanley, that type of area which it is proposed in this Amendment should be in 11(c), are all Lancashire towns, based on heavy industry, glass making, formerly on coal mining. The people there speak with a clear and distinct Lancashire accent. The people there, for example, watch Rugby League, not Liverpool or Everton. The people in those areas eat tripe and onions, not scouse. They talk differently, work at different occupations. The problem—and this is far more important—is totally different; it is a problem of urban renewal.

That type of problem is totally different from the problems of Huyton, Kirkby, Halewood and Whiston, which are new, expanding towns—an overspill area where the people are basically from Merseyside, many exported from Liverpool to Huyton and Kirkby and all those areas, where they have basically light industry and support Liverpool or Everton with equal vociferousness, while poor little Huyton can hardly get a team going at all. Sport is important in the constitution of an area, just as important as the problems of youth facilities, schools, social services, and things of that kind.

This Amendment seeks to make two good, viable authorities, one based on St. Helens and one based on Huyton, each of which can make a great contribution to the Merseyside area, but a different kind of contribution.

Photo of Mr Michael McGuire Mr Michael McGuire , Ince

I agree with most of what my hon. Friend says about the attitude of the people. So that I can get it clear, is it his intention, as I hope it is, to include in the new districts to be in the St. Helens 11(c) area the Eccleston Park district in which I live, because I can tell him that he is on a winner as regards the attitude to sport in that area, which properly belongs to St. Helens?

9.15 p.m.

Photo of Mr Gordon Oakes Mr Gordon Oakes , Widnes

I am glad that one of my hon. Friends thinks that I am on a winner. Yes, it is the intention that Eccleston Park, the parishes of Eccleston, Rainhill and Windle, should be part of the St. Helens district and not part of the Huyton district. If one goes along Warrington Road in the parish of Rainhill, that is the dividing line; one half is in St. Helens and the other half consists of people who have come out from Liverpool. The parish of Rainhill is the dividing line, and it was decided that that parish should go into St. Helens.

I come to the most controversial aspect, which concerns the parish of Halewood. The Government propose in the White Paper and the Bill to put the parish of Halewood into District (b), that is the existing city of Liverpool. It is the only parish to go into Liverpool, and the people of Halewood, which is wholly in the Widnes constituency, resent very much being put into Liverpool. They prefer to remain with Whiston Rural District Council, in the 11(c) area, where they have been successfully integrated into the community.

Halewood was a village of 3,700 people in 1961. The latest 1971 figure is 26,850 people, most of whom came from Liverpool. Those people do not want to go back, they have become part of the parish of Halewood, they have become integrated into a parish-type community and they are proud of their own local area of Halewood. As testimony to that, a petition signed by nearly 50 per cent. of the voters of Halewood has been sent to me and transmitted to the right hon. Gentleman.

Photo of Mr Eric Heffer Mr Eric Heffer , Liverpool, Walton

There must be 51 per cent. who think the other way.

Photo of Mr Gordon Oakes Mr Gordon Oakes , Widnes

As my hon. Friend knows, it is extremely difficult to get as many as 50 per cent. of the people in a parish to sign a petition. He may say that 51 per cent. have not signed, but I assure him that I have not received a single representation, either written or verbal, from the parish of Halewood to the effect that it should be included in District 11(b). If my hon. Friends are worried, I know what worries them. It is not that the parish of Halewood would go into District 11(c); what worries them is that the Ford factory would go with it into District 11(c).

District 11(b) is by far the biggest; it is the giant among the Merseyside districts. On 1971 figures the population was 633,000. Its rateable value was £28,797 and the rateable value per head was £45·49. District (c) has all the problems—overspill, housing needs and the provision or youth facilities and social services. With Halewood, its rateable value would be £37·18 per head. Without Halewood it would be £36·11 per head. If Liverpool loses the Ford factory and its £800,000 rateable value to District (b), the rateable value per head goes down a fraction of a penny. Liverpool is a very rich authority compared with the very poor authority next door in terms of rateable value per head. The poorer authority has problems far grater than those of the much wealthier District (b). District (b) is big enough and rich enough, but District (c) has needs. For all these good local government reasons, I ask that Halewood be included in District (c).

Most important of all are the wishes of the people of Halewood, the parish council and all political parties. I have had a letter from a Conservative councillor who was on the parish council before the overspill came. I have had letters from all the churches and from the Community Council which is doing such excellent work in Halewood. I have a petition signed by nearly half the inhabitants of that parish, and I have had a letter from the Ford Motor Company signed by Sir Leonard Crossland.

Photo of Mr Eric Heffer Mr Eric Heffer , Liverpool, Walton

Will my hon. Friend make it clear that, although he is speaking from the Opposition Front Bench at the moment, he is on this Amendment not speaking for the Labour Party and that he is now arguing his own case? I hope he will make that clear so that the House knows the exact position.

Photo of Mr Gordon Oakes Mr Gordon Oakes , Widnes

The Order Paper makes the situation clear because Amendment No. 966 in regard to splitting District 11(c) in two and Amendment No. 15 relating to Halewood is in my name, and in my name alone. If any hon. Member is in doubt, let me make it clear that both Amendment No. 966 and No. 15 are my Amendments; they are not official Opposition Amendments. Amendment No. 17 is an official Opposition Amendment.

I was about to quote from a letter from Sir Leonard Crossland, Chairman of the Ford Motor Company. Ford is the biggest ratepayer in the parish of Halewood. The Secretary of State was sent a copy of this letter, which in the concluding sentences says: I do not know to what extent representations have been made to you, but I thought you might like to have this note setting out our view about the Amendment which Mr. Oakes proposes to make in the House on April 20"— that is when he thought the Amendment would come on, as indeed did we— and I hope you will be able to listen sympathetically to the case he puts forward. That was the view of the biggest ratepayer in the area, and is the view of all the inhabitants in the area.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) said, I am speaking here as a constituency Member. The foremost duty of a constituency Member is to represent the views of his contituents, especially when he believes those views to be absolutely right and he agrees with them.

Photo of Mr Leslie Spriggs Mr Leslie Spriggs , St Helens

My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool. Walton (Mr. Heffer) has just put my hon. Friend the Member for Widnes (Mr. Oakes) on the spot by saying that Amendment No. 966 is an unofficial Amendment. May I assure my hon. Friend that when he tabled that Amendment, I transmitted it to the St. Helens local authority and to others and asked for objections. I have not received one. Therefore, I was able to give my local authority and my constituents an assurance that I would give Amendment No. 966 my full support.

Photo of Mr Gordon Oakes Mr Gordon Oakes , Widnes

I am most grateful to my hon. Friend. I have no doubt that if he has an opportunity to speak on this Amendment, he will wish to expand at much greater length upon it.

I conclude by saying that it is the duty of a Member of Parliament to represent the views of his constituents, particularly when he firmly believes that they are right. I believe that the people of Halewood are right in their desire to go into District 11(c), and that from a local authority point of view it is just and proper for the Government and this House to accede to their wishes and to make it a proper and more viable unit of local government.

Photo of Mr John Tilney Mr John Tilney , Liverpool Wavertree

I am pleased that I have been chosen to take part in this discussion following speeches by the hon. Members for Bootle (Mr. Simon Mahon) and Widnes (Mr. Oakes). The hon. Member for Bootle referred to the immense problems on Liverpool and Merseyside and suggested that Bootle had done better. But my own feeling is that these are problems for the whole of the economic community on both sides of the Mersey River and estuary and that we shall tackle the matter better in partnership under the new county than we have ever done before.

The hon. Gentleman said that he thought Southport's attitude in the past had been reprehensible. He might have said the same about those who live in Wirral. I believe in people being mixed together, and that we shall do very much better in the new County of Merseyside when the people are all part of one country.

Photo of Mr Simon Mahon Mr Simon Mahon , Bootle

I agree completely with the hon. Gentleman but was there any exodus from Southport or Wirral to Marsh Lane, Bootle, or to Scotland Road?

Photo of Mr John Tilney Mr John Tilney , Liverpool Wavertree

Once we improve Bootle and Liverpool I believe that many people who now commute will choose to come lo live in Bootle and Liverpool since their journeys to work will be very much easier.

I turn now to the remarks of the hon. Member for Widnes and to the Amendment relating to Ellesmere Port. I look from my home across the Mersey to Ellesmere Port. That does not mean that I think that it should be part of Merseyside. It is very much part of Cheshire. It has been part of your constituency, Mr. Speaker, for a long time. One might as well suggest that Frodsham and Helsby, which I also see, should become part of Merseyside. In my view, it is better lo leave Ellesmere Port out of the Merseyside conurbation.

I find it more difficult to argue about the splitting up of District 11(c). I accept the views of the hon. Member for Widnes that those on the western side of District (c) think very differently from those on the eastern side and regard themselves as part of the expansion of Liverpool and of Merseyside.

As regards Halewood, again there is the fear that Liverpool will dominate because of its size, although I believe that it will always be primus inter paresof the new Merseyside county.

The argument has shown that, be it in the Army or in local government, mankind is fiercely tribal and likes to keep to his own history and friends. I have no doubt that my right hon. Friend will consider whether the new split district which has been suggested will be viable and produce the soundly-based housing, education and social services which every district should be able to support.

If my right hon. Friend accepts the Amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Widnes, there will be not four but five districts. They will range in population from nearly 700,000 to just over 200,000 in District (a). If District (c) is split, both will be below the 200,000 mark. It is up to my right hon. Friend to decide whether that is big enough. But any proposal must be soundly based and we must not jeopardise the adequate provision of local government services.

As regards Halewood, the House will be aware that before the Ford factory came the population was very small. It was in the context of the unemployment problem of Liverpool that Ford came, under a Socialist administration in Liverpool but under a Conservative Government nationally. It has helped the employment situation on Merseyside enormously. But in order to obtain the Ford factory Liverpool had to spend a great deal of money to provide all the necessary infrastructure in Halewood. The ratepayers were asked to do this and were delighted to do so.

I have heard it argued on Merseyside that Halewood should become part of Liverpool because of our housing there. However, it is a slightly bogus argument. There are only just over 4,000 houses in Halewood. There are 4,000 in Knowsley. No fewer than 7,000 are owned by the City of Liverpool in Huyton and as many at 11,500 in Kirby. It has been decided that these should be outside District (b) of the Merseyside County.

It is right that I should report to my right hon. Friend that I have had a letter from the Secretary of the Halewood North Conservative Branch which says: I can tell you for a fact that if we go into Huyton many parents with children approaching secondary age will move into Liverpool City boundary to take advantage of the fine secondary schools. I am not sure whether they are aware of the problems we have recently had over our city education.

The writer continues: We are also disquieted by the loss of Liverpool City Police and the Parks Constabulary, (there is no park attendant in Halewood), both bodies sorely needed to fight vandalism here. I believe that the important concept is Merseyside. When people living in the City of London are asked where they live, they do not reply that they live in Kennington, Kensington, Pimlico or Paddington; they say that they live in London. I hope the time will come when instead of people saying that they live in Wallasey, Bootle, Birkenhead or even Liverpool, they will say that they live in Merseyside.

It is to Merseyside that every help should be directed. What the escutcheon for the new Merseyside County will be we do not know. There ought to be a blue heraldic fosse, I suppose, rather than a fesse, though I think it will be a long time before the Mersey is as blue as that is likely to be. As an analogy, it should be attached at only one end by the tunnel—our river is like a number-plate half falling off a car—until we get the proper communication between north and south of the Mersey.

We have to make this Merseyside County a real success. I have urged the Department of the Environment—I am not blaming my right hon. Friend for this—to look into the matter of communications. Only yesterday I received this letter: On theM53, while it may not give the inhabitants of Wavertree and Garston easy and immediate access to Wales, I would maintain that it has opened a significantly improved line of communication to Wales for the inhabitants of the Merseyside area as a whole! As my right hon. Friend knows, the M53 has one-line traffic, because of the box girder bridges, and for only part of the way. In any case, it goes in the wrong direction. It reminds me of when we were bombed during the war by our allies and they were 90 degrees out for line. The M53 goes from the north-west to the south-east when we really want to go from the north-east to the south-west.

The letter continues: Not only was the Mid-Wirral motorway opened in February this year, but also the 20-mile stretch of M62 connecting Tarbock and Worsley is at present under construction. That has little to do with the linking of Merseyside. …the public at large I think have certainly been impressed that over the last six months or so it has become possible to drive from London to South Wales and from London to Carlisle"— what has that to do with the Mersey?— (or, in Merseyside terms, that it is possible to drive from Haydock to Carlisle, London, Bristol and Cardiff)". One has only to try to get out from the centre of Liverpool to Haydock to know what an immense time it takes. This is one of the silliest letters I have received in 22 years from any Government Department. This does not mean that we do not want to make Merseyside a great success. I hopethat that will be the paramount consideration of my right hon. Friend.

Photo of Mr Edmund Dell Mr Edmund Dell , Birkenhead

I rise to support what my hon. Friend the Member for Widnes (Mr. Oakes) said about Amendment No. 17 which he told the House was an official Amendment. I apologise, Mr. Speaker, for speaking about part of your constituency without your having the opportunity to reply, but this matter is important to Merseyside, and it is a wrong decision of the Government to exclude Ellesmere Port from the Merseyside conurbation.

It is admittedly a difficult problem when, in making this proposal, one is overriding the views of Ellesmere Port itself and, as far as I can see, of most people there who have expressed an opinion on it. Nevertheless, one of the facts about local government reform is that sometimes one has to override local views. In my view it is necessary to do that in this case in the interests of Merseyside as a whole and, indeed, in the interests of Ellesmere Port itself.

I should like to make clear the view of Birkenhead on this matter, because some doubt might have arisen as a result of Ellesmere Port's glossy publication on this issue. It suggests on page 19 that Birkenhead has changed its mind about whether Ellesmere Port should be within the Merseyside conurbation. It refers to certain comments made by Birkenhead in August, 1970, on the previous Government's White Paper on the reform of local government. In those comments Birkenhead accepted the argument for a link between Ellesmere Port and Chester, but at that time the whole concept of the Merseyside conurbation was of a very much larger metropolitan area, and within that much larger area it would have been possible to meet the two requirements, first, that Ellesmere Port should be part of Merseyside and, secondly, that it should maintain its traditional links with Chester.

The problem with which we are here dealing arises because of the restricted metropolitan area which the Government have created in the Bill. Given the choice that is thereby forced upon us, I am sure it is more important that Ellesmere Port should be part of the Merseyside conurbation than that it should maintain its traditional local government connection with Chester. That is the view of Birkenhead. Indeed, that was the Government's original view on the matter.

Ellesmere Port advances various arguments against what I am suggesting. It says that whereas Wirral looks to Birkenhead as its centre—and indeed it does—Ellesmere Port looks to Chester. It says that it is nearer to Chester, but that is hardly a decisive argument. If local government boundaries were decided on that basis it would be impossible to draw them anywhere. If one is to draw boundaries one has occasionally to divide boroughs from areas which are proximate to them.

Ellesmere Port also says that it has always been in Cheshire, and therefore all its existing political links are with that county. It says, further, that it is a small self-contained town, and that the great majority of its population works in that town. Those are the arguments which Ellesmere Port understandably presents in support of its view that it should be outside the Merseyside metropolitan county. I merely say that all those arguments are derived from the past and that they ignore the increasing future pull of Merseyside on Ellesmere Port.

Let us consider what current and future developments in Merseyside imply. We have just had an amusing speech from the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Mr. Tilney) about the M53, which he says goes in the wrong direction. I am sure that that is a point he will take up with his right hon. Friend the Member for Wallasey (Mr. Marples), who directed it in the wrong direction. Nevertheless, it performs a function in linking the different parts of Wirral, and linking Ellesmere Port with Wirral, and linking Wirral with Liverpool.

Photo of Mr John Tilney Mr John Tilney , Liverpool Wavertree

I agree entirely, but it does not link the south end of Liverpool with Wirral, which is the suggestion of the Department.

Photo of Mr Edmund Dell Mr Edmund Dell , Birkenhead

I agree entirely that it does not do that. If the idea the hon. Gentleman has in mind is that the south of Wirral should be linked with the south of Liverpool, when that takes place, as in due course I am sure it must take place, this will increase the pull of Merseyside and Liverpool on Ellesmere Port. That is a probable future development and it strengthens the argument for my case.

Railway developments will have exactly the same effect. The passenger transport authority is already examining links between Ellesmere Port and Merseyside. In other words, in terms of communications, all the arguments on future developments that will take place indicate this greater and greater pull of Merseyside on Ellesmere Port.

Industrial development in the area is having exactly the same effect. Ellesmere Port, with all the industrial facilities to which my hon. Friend the Member for Widnes referred, is providing employment for North Wirral, and across the river for people from Liverpool.

We come here to the question of the development area boundaries. This point is important to the future of Ellesmere Port. I wonder whether the Minister is prepared to say that the exclusion of Ellesmere Port from Merseyside will not affect its development area status in any way. We have already seen the way that, relatively, Merseyside has been downgraded by the creation of special development areas in other areas of the country. I should have thought it not inconceivable that the boundaries would be redrawn. We know that in the old days development area boundaries have had no relationship to local government areas, but will that remain true under the new conditions when we have these larger local authorities with wider areas which might conveniently provide the boundaries of development areas in future?

It seems that Ellesmere Port itself should want some assurance from the Minister in that respect before it strives so strongly to be excluded from Merseyside. But my general point is that industrial development in Merseyside is having exactly the same effect in linking Ellesmere Port to Merseyside and to Liverpool as are the developments of communications.

When we reform local government there is always a very great danger that the boundaries are out of date before the new authorities are set up. I am very much afraid that in the Government's idea of separating Ellesmere Port from the new Merseyside metropolitan area, they are falling into that error and creating an authority which, in terms of its boundaries, is out of date before we begin.

It is for those reasons that I so strongly support my hon. Friend's proposition that Ellesmere Port should be brought back within the Merseyside conurbation.

Photo of Mr Eric Cockeram Mr Eric Cockeram , Bebington

I wish to oppose Amendment No. 17, which is the proposal to which the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Dell) addressed himself; namely, that Ellesmere Port should be included in the Merseyside conurbation.

Despite the claims made by the right hon. Gentleman, those in Ellesmere Port have no doubt whatever in their minds that they are part of Cheshire. A new hospital, for example, is just being built to serve both Chester and Ellesmere Port. Income tax matters are handled from Chester. On matters of employment, police and courts, and social matters, the inhabitants of Ellesmere Port look towards Chester. It is possible to move a number of administrative offices, but it is not possible to alter people's habits.

In that respect, the House should be aware of a shopping survey recently undertaken by the Birkenhead Council. The right hon. Gentleman has suggested an affinity between Birkenhead and Ellesmere Port. But that is not shown in the survey, which covered a month and was taken in both mornings and afternoons and on different days of the week. The survey covered 1,300 people. Precisely seven came from Ellesmere Port. In another shopping survey of Ellesmere Port it was found that over 70 per cent. of purchases were made in Ellesmere Port itself and of the balance 25 per cent. were made in Chester. That indicates clearly where the people of Ellesmere Port regard their affinity as lying.

9.45 p.m.

It has been argued that Ellesmere Port has housed people from Liverpool. This is true, even though the process of overspill is now coming to an end. It is also true that Runcorn has housed people from Liverpool, but Runcorn is not in the Merseyside proposal. It is also true that Skelmersdale has housed people from Liverpool, but it is not proposed that Skelmersdale should be part of the Merseyside area. Therefore, the suggestion that Ellesmere Port should be linked with Merseyside because it has housed people from Liverpool does not bear further examination.

On the important matter of employment, 82½ per cent. of the residents of Ellesmere Port work in that borough. Of the balance, more go to Chester to work than go to the whole of the Wirral combined.

The Merseyside Area Land Use and Transport Survey, the results of which were published in 1969, concluded that Ellesmere Port was separate from Merseyside and that Merseyside did not need Ellesmere Port to solve any of its land use problems.

If Ellesmere Port were to be included in Merseyside, it would produce another problem in that area of Cheshire. Ellesmere Port is an expanding town. Chester, only six miles away, is an historic town. A few miles in the other direction, to complete the triangle, there is Runcorn, an expanding new town. The present planning proposals incorporate the needs of all three and they are complementary. To divorce one from the other two would create problems, not solve them.

The glossy publication to which the right hon. Member for Birkenhead referred and which he somewhat decried is a publication of the council of Ellesmere Port, which is a Labour-controlled council. It is the clear wish of that council—I speak not only for the Labour majority but also of the Conservative minority—that Ellesmere Port should remain in Cheshire.

Birkenhead likewise made written representations some years ago to the effect that Ellesmere Port was separate and distinct from the Wirral area.

Photo of Mr Edmund Dell Mr Edmund Dell , Birkenhead

The hon. Gentleman will agree that Birkenhead's representations on that point were made in an entirely different context and that Birkenhead has now made absolutely clear its view that within the new Merseyside metropolitan county it believes that Ellesmere Port should be within Merseyside.

Photo of Mr Eric Cockeram Mr Eric Cockeram , Bebington

I accept that Birkenhead has made those representations, but the representations of Birkenhead have been somewhat conflicting and confused, because it repeated its first representations only a couple of years ago.

The House should be reminded that the Labour Government deliberately excluded Ellesmere Port from the passenger transport area of Merseyside, stating that the local authority area which it seemed to the then Minister should be included in the PTA on the basis that the minimum area should make sense for proper planning should exclude Ellesmere Port.

Photo of Mr James Dunn Mr James Dunn , Liverpool Kirkdale

Does the hon. Gentleman recognise that Southport was excluded, too?

Photo of Mr Eric Cockeram Mr Eric Cockeram , Bebington

I accept that Southport was excluded. I am arguing the case of Ellesmere Port. The Labour Government's action in that respect indicates that they were aware not only that public transport links between the two hardly existed but that it was not necessary to provide any. The case for Southport is somewhat different, as my hon. Friend knows, in that the public transport links are strong between the two and the need for them is equally strong. They are not two comparable cases, as probably he will accept.

Photo of Mr John Tilney Mr John Tilney , Liverpool Wavertree

Southport wished to go into Merseyside.

Photo of Mr Eric Cockeram Mr Eric Cockeram , Bebington

That is so. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for pointing that out. He is making my final point—that the inhabitants of Ellesmere Port do not wish to be included in Merseyside. That applies to the Chamber of Commerce, the Chamber of Trade, the two political parties and the inhabitants. That being the case, I have no hesitation in supporting the proposal in the Bill that Ellesmere Port is, and should continue to be, part of Cheshire.

Photo of Mr Leslie Spriggs Mr Leslie Spriggs , St Helens

Had I been given the chance to draftan Amendment like Amendment No. 966, it would not have been possible to draft one more intelligently. I compliment my hon. Friend the Member for Widnes (Mr. Oakes) on the way he has tackled the drafting of the Amendment, because it is most important that hon. Members and the Minister in particular should take into account the common interests between the local authorities which are grouped.

St. Helens is a water authority in its own right. It supplies fresh water to many of the surrounding local authorities which are named in the Amendment. Transport, too, is another service which neighbouring authorities share with the St. Helens County Borough Transport Department. Industry is another thing we have in common with many of the local authorities which surround the great county borough. Some 18,000 people are employed in the glass industry at St. Helens. Many of them travel in and out of the town to earn their living, and through the urban districts which are shown in the list. In leisure time, what greater sport could we choose than rugby league? St. Helens has been able to prove that not only can it play the game but it can win the championship. It is a great town which houses not only the glass industry but chemical, engineering and coal and manufacturing industries.

I put the Amendment to my electorate and the local government officers and staff who work not only at the town hall but at the new administrative headquarters, which has been taken on by the corporation only on a rental basis. Perhaps I should qualify "on a rental basis". The local authority wanted to build its own administrative building but the Labour Government refused to give it permission. The same site was built upon by a private developer and we allowed the St. Helens Corporation to rent it.

My hon. Friend the Member for Widnes made it clear that the two authorities to which he referred, Huyton and St. Helens, would each have approximate populations of 200,000. Anyone visiting St. Helens or requiring accommodation in St. Helens has to visit the town only once to see that we have a thriving local authority which is building thousands of houses to rent. The town inherited some of the oldest property in Lancashire.

The local authority in St. Helens has shown how progressive it is. Hundreds of houses which were unfit for habitation have been levelled to the ground and in their place stand hundreds of beautiful new homes rising to house the people who are waiting for them.

Some of my own friends may feel that the split of District 11(c) is an indication that the local authorities named do not want to be part of the Merseyside metropolitan area. Let me disabuse them immediately. We are pleased to be part of the Merseyside metropolitan area. My hon. Friends should consider the matter from the point of view of the people who live on the perimeter of the Merseyside area who find that they have a lot in common with the people in the St. Helens local authority area. In addition, the St. Helens shopping centre is used by hundreds of thousands of people from the Lancashire area every week.

I ask my hon. Friends to consider the points that I have put forward and the assurances by my hon. Friend the Member for Widnes and if the Minister feels he is able to accept the Amendment and a Division is called, I ask them to vote in support of the Amendment.

Photo of Mr Frederick Lee Mr Frederick Lee , Newton

I wish to speak to Amendments Nos. 472 and 473 which seek to leave out the name Newton-le-Willows from the St. Helens area and to add it to the Warrington area. I pursue my arguments in spite of what my hon. Friend the Member for St. Helens (Mr. Spriggs) said. I do not dispute for one moment what he said about the homely nature of his constituents, for I know it to be true. When we first saw in the Bill a short time ago that it intended to put Culcheth and New church into Warrington, and Newton-le-Willows, into St. Helens we genuinely thought there had been a mistake, and that in drawing up the Bill the Minister's intentions had become reversed.

I still live in Newton-le-Willows and I am not therefore merely conditioned by briefs which I have received. I know that the local authority has been in touch with the Minister and that, as I will argue, that they have very little affinity with St. Helens and that the magisterial arrangements, the sewerage arrangements and so on are with the Warrington area. That is not so in other parts of my constituency. My hon. Friend mentioned St. Helens. Another urban district of the Newton division, Haydock, is to go into the St. Helens area and that is right and proper. That urban district bases itself almost entirely upon services and shopping centres and so forth in the St. Helens area, but the position with Newton-le-Willows is different. I admire the way in which the right hon. Gentleman can take us through all the Lancashire towns. I wish he had stopped off in Newton-le-Willows. I should have loved to give him a cup of tea and discuss the matter with him. He would not find two people in a hundred who would opt for any move other than to Warrington, if we had to move at all. We would much prefer to be left within the Lancashire county——

It being Ten o'clock, the debate stood adjourned.

Ordered,That the Local Government Bill may be proceeded with at this day's Sitting, though opposed, until any hour.—[Mr. Kenneth Clarke.]

Question again proposed, That the Amendment be made.

Photo of Mr Frederick Lee Mr Frederick Lee , Newton

The vast majority of women, like my wife, shop in the High Street in Newton or go to Warrington.

It was argued in Committee by the right hon. Gentleman or one of his colleagues that there were more bus services to St. Helens than to Warrington. That is wrong. There may be the through buses to Manchester, Liverpool and so on, but most of my fellow Newtonians will agree that the services to Warrington from Newton are far better than those to St. Helens.

The overwhelming number of people from Newton who are unlucky enough to have to use hospitals go into hospitals in the Warrington area. The local authority has for many years had an agreement with the Warrington Corporation for the treatment of all the sewage from Newton by Warrington's sewage disposal works.

I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will take particular notice of what Government Departments are doing. The head offices of many of the services for the district, such as those of the Department of Health and Social Security and of the Department of Employment, are in Warrington. I am correspondingly with the Secretary of State for Social Services because we are very annoyed about our social security office being demoted. We have organised a great petition, because the Department wants to move it to "the appropriate area". I wonder where the right hon. Gentleman thinks it is going. I assure him that it is not St. Helens. It is going to Warrington. We object to that, because we want to keep it in Newton, but the fact is that each of the Departments looks upon Warrington as the natural place for such services. I am surprised that the right hon. Gentleman seems to be out on a limb in this regard.

The Magisterial bench, the petty sessions, the county courts, and the police are all at Warrington. The postal services for Newton are based on the offices in Warrington. The vast majority of commuting workers are employed in the Warrington area.

I know that in Committee the question of access to St. Helens from Newton was mentioned. One of my hon. Friends who was good enough to move an Amendment for me spoke of the undoubted fact that it is not possible to get direct from Newton to St. Helens without going through Burtonwood or Haydock. Burtonwood is going into the Warrington area. It seems strange to us in Newton that the right hon. Gentleman should be thinking in terms of forcing us to hop over Burtonwood to get into St. Helens. Those are practical and real reasons why we suggest there should be a transfer to the Warrington area.

If the right hon. Gentleman thinks I am exaggerating, he should come to Newton. I doubt whether he would find two people in 100 who would opt for going to St. Helens. I understate the case. My friends on the local authority say they cannot find one person who would freely choose, between the two options, to go to St. Helens.

I was grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for the way in which he dealt with my first Amendment. Will he give me the same kind of answer? I think there has been a misunderstanding. The local authorities in Newton and Golborne would be very happy to take advantage of the offer he made to me to discuss with him this matter before it goes to another place. If he would make the same offer in this case, he would be doing a just and proper thing. I should be grateful to accept that offer.

Photo of Mr Eric Heffer Mr Eric Heffer , Liverpool, Walton

This debate indicates differences in approach in issues involved.

I wish to speak about the question of Halewood. It was accepted policy that Halewood would be part of the new Liverpool district. When the Ford factory was established on Merseyside, Alderman Braddock was deeply concerned. The Liverpool local authority and Alderman Braddock pulled out every stop to ensure that that factory was established in our area, to create employment primarily for the people of Liverpool, but also for Merseyside as a whole, because Liverpool had the highest level of unemployment in the area. The local authority and Alderman Braddock gave an assurance that we, as Liverpool people, would make certain that all facilities and finance would be available, that the Liverpool ratepayers would make money available for the establishment of the Ford factory. That was done. Whiston local authorities at that time knew that the factory was being established as a result of the efforts primarily of the Liverpool local authority and people such as Alderman Braddock. There is no constituency interest in this matter. My hon. Friend says one must fight for one's constituency rights. I do not have any constituency interest. I have a Liverpool and a Merseyside interest.

If we look at the map issued by the Department of the Environment it will be seen that District 11(b) is drawn in such a way that Halewood was a natural part of 11(b). There is no reason whatever why Halewood should be excluded and placed in (c). It will not enter into the arguments about whether (c) should be split. My own view is that it should not be but I will not go into that because it is not my prime reason for speaking. The point is that Halewood ought to be part of the Liverpool district.

I would like to answer that point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Widnes (Mr. Oakes). He said that he had a petition signed by almost 50 per cent. of the people in Halewood. That must mean that over 50 per cent. did not sign it. Why? It may be that if someone went round with a petition for going into Liverpool more than 50 per cent. would sign it. We do not know. I have taken petitions round doors and I have heard it said that it is not easy to get people to sign them. My experience is that people are only too willing and happy to sign petitions just to get rid of the person at the door. They consider that person to be a damned nuisance and it is easy to sign the petition to get rid of him. That is not a serious argument and I do not honestly believe that my hon. Friend believes it to be.

He says that he thinks that if it is put in the Liverpool area sooner or later it might come out of his constituency. We all face this problem. Sooner or later there will be another change in parliamentary boundaries. No one knows what the future holds in that direction and we ought not to mix the argument about parliamentary boundaries with the local government issue. It is clear that Halewood is naturally part of District 11(b). I understand my hon. Friend's view about Hale village. It is a very salubrious area and I cannot afford to live there. It has nice thatched houses. When it comes to Halewood, it has council houses, built by the Liverpool City authority, owned by that authority and sustained by it. If anyone believes that those people have no interest in retaining their links with the people of Liverpool then he does not understand the situation.

Photo of Mr Gordon Oakes Mr Gordon Oakes , Widnes

My hon. Friend's argument could apply to Huyton, Cantril Farm and Kirkby. Does he seek to bring all those into District 11(b)?

Photo of Mr Eric Heffer Mr Eric Heffer , Liverpool, Walton

That is true. I was about to make that point. The hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Mr. Tilney) talked about the tribal nature of the area. If we were being octopus-like we could say that we ought to take the lot in because they all come from Liverpool, anyway. The constituency of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, Huyton, and Kirkby, all these areas are primarily made up of people from Scotland Road. That is why they are good Labour areas. They come from Liverpool, nowhere else. They are our people. We are not saying that all of them should come in but we are saying that the natural ones, those closest in affinity, should be part and parcel of District 11(b).

I cannot understand why the Government have suddenly decided that they have a great deal of sympathy for my hon. Friend's Amendment. I understand that this is so. I do not know whether it is true, but the Liverpool Daily Post, which I read from time to time, has said this. I do not know why they should have gone back on this decision any more than I know why they should have gone back on the Ellesmere Port decision. I am asking the Minister not to accept this Amendment but to continue with the original proposals that were contained in the Bill.

10.15 p.m.

Photo of Mr Frank Marsden Mr Frank Marsden , Liverpool Scotland

I will be as brief as possible because many people wish to speak and it is going to be a long debate. I wish to speak on Amendment No. 15.

As far as this debate is concerned the Minister should perhaps have represented Ross and Cromarty. As it is, he reckons he is the Member of Parliament for the Crosby constituency, and I know because I have heard him say so. He knows the area like the back of his hand, so it is no good trying to pull the wool over his eyes.

Henry Ford never brought his huge factory to Hale wood in order to do a favour for the workers of Liverpool. He did it because of the financial incentives offered by the Government of the day and because of the pressures of the Liverpool City Council. That council has always been a very great authority on Merseyside. It built a huge council estate to house the Ford workers. That was built with Liverpool money, and now the Minister seeks to take this estate away from us and to take away the huge factory with its high rateable value.

I just want to record the fact that my constituents are firmly of the opinion that the boundaries of District (b) should remain as recommended in the report.

Photo of Lieut-Colonel Dick Crawshaw Lieut-Colonel Dick Crawshaw , Liverpool Toxteth

I propose to speak for only two or three minutes. It has been said that we cannot understand why Halewood is being taken out of the Liverpool area. I think it is fairly clear that this is being done in order to make the subdivision of District (c) viable. I would like to ask the Minister, when he replies, whether he would have taken Halewood out—I understand he is in agreement with this Amendment—if District (c) had remained one district instead of being subdivided.

My difficulty is that unless one is completely selfish and says "We want to grab everything for ourselves", once one accepts the subdivision of District (c) I do not believe that one can make out a case for retaining Halewood in Liverpool instead of putting it in the Huyton area. It is difficult with a population of 700,000 and our rateable value. So if the Minister agrees with the subdivision of (c), why has he decided to do this?

It has been suggested that there is a growing population, but even if it increased 100 per cent. it would still not be as large as the Liverpool district itself; so what is wrong with keeping (c) as one complete district instead of subdividing it? The argument has been put that the people on one side are completely different, from those on the other; yet a short time ago we heard the argument about Southport being put in with Bootle. If that argument is true so far as (c) is concerned, surely the argument should be that Southport should be different from Bootle if one goes on the type of people in the particular areas.

I do not believe that these arguments hold water. One can take every argument that the hon. Member for Widnes (Mr. Oakes) put forward for subdividing District (c) and show at least another dozen instances where these are completely countered.

I believe that the orginal plans which were put forward may have been, in many cases, arbitrary, yet had some logic behind them, and because (c) was going to be one area Halewood naturally came into the Liverpool area. Because the Government have now decided that (c) will be divided, in order that it remain viable it is necessary to take away that rateable value of Halewood and put it into the Huyton area. That is where the Government are making a mistake. In a few years' time they will come to the conclusion that the two areas will not be viable, but the damage will have been done.

If it is decided to divide District (c) into two districts, unless I want to be completely selfish I cannot make out a case for keeping Halewood within Liverpool, because Huyton has a greater need for the increased rateable value than has Liverpool, but that is no reason for dividing District (c) into two. That is where the mistake is being made.

Photo of Mr Eric Ogden Mr Eric Ogden , Liverpool, West Derby

My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Toxteth (Mr. Crawshaw) suggested that one reason why the Government should accept Amendment No. 15 is that they have already made up their minds about the division of District 11(c). My view is that the Minister should first decide the boundaries of the larger area. Let him first decide whether Halewood is to be inside or outside Liverpool and then go on to decide what division he will or will not have to make of the other areas. Let Halewood and this Amendment come first and then let the Minister make his dispositions in the light of that decision.

By the time we have completed the Report stage some days, weeks or months ahead, it may be thought that we shall have discussed every county, region, city, town, hamlet and lamp post in the country. It is right that that should be so. Equally, I hope my hon. Friends will think it right that on this first day we should be discussing the problems of Merseyside.

I support my hon. Friend the Member for Bootle (Mr. Simon Mahon) on Amendment No. 385. I support my hon. Friend the Member for Widnes (Mr. Oakes) on Amendment No. 17, but he will not be surprised if I oppose him on Amendment No. 15. It is not unusual on this side of the House to say little where we are agreed and to say more when we disagree. I strenuously oppose Amendment No. 15.

The Government White Paper of February, 1971, "Local Government in England", outlined their objectives, proposals and principles for the reform of local government. On page 6 in paragraph 7 is set out a fundamental part of those proposals: If local authorities are to provide services effectively and economically, their areas should be large enough in size, population and resources to meet administrative needs including the maintenance and development of a trained and expert local government service: boundaries should be drawn so that areas take account of patterns of development and travel: and services which are closely linked should be in the hands of the same authority. I will take the phrase: maintenance and development of a trained and expert local government service and see how it applies to Halewood and to Liverpool. Whilst there is some private development in Halewood, most of the development is in council houses and the people look towards Liverpool for services, rents, rates, maintenance and so on. The Ford Motor Company complex is important. Its rateable value either to the Widnes area or to the Liverpool area is important, but we should look at wider things than the local area.

Photo of Mr Gordon Oakes Mr Gordon Oakes , Widnes

The Widnes area would not gain in rateable value; it is, in fact, the Whiston rural district.

Photo of Mr Eric Ogden Mr Eric Ogden , Liverpool, West Derby

I apologise. I am using Widnes in the sense of the "Greater Widnes Authority" to which my hon. Friend has referred. The patterns of travel and development are towards Liverpool rather than the other way up the river. Rateable value is important, but it should not be the first priority.

The paragraph then said that services which are closely linked should be in the hands of the same authority. In all the services in this area Liverpool is surely not dominant but predominant. We have seen from discussion on earlier Amendments that in respect of South-East Lancashire, North-East Lancashire, South-West Lancashire and the Merseyside the Government have abandoned the principles laid down in their White Paper.

I am afraid that I have to say to my hon. Friend the Member for Widnes that the Government seem to be using his intervention and initiative for their own purposes. My hon. Friend spoke of his conviction that he should speak on behalf of his constituents and his local authorities, and added "especially when one thinks they are right". Looking at the narrow issues, my hon. Friend's Amendment may be right, but every Member of Parliament has a duty not only to his own local constituents and his local area authorities but also to the region and to the county as a whole. My hon. Friend's suggestion would be detrimental to the area as a whole.

It is a tragedy that this Amendment has come forward since it is an example of a failure of consultation, co-operation and discussion between like-minded organisations in an area. I am sorry to say that this is the unfortunate result when one hon. Member decides that he must "go it alone" with the minimum amount of co-operation from his colleagues in the area. I must tell my hon. Friend that his good intentions and support for his local authorities and the people of his area are being used by the Government for purposes which in the long term will not be of any real value or worth for either his constituents or for the people of Merseyside as a whole.

Photo of Mr Robert Parry Mr Robert Parry , Liverpool Exchange

I intend to be brief and to speak in opposition to Amendment No. 15.

I am particularly interested in this Amendment because many thousands of my constituents, or former constituents, have been rehoused in Halewood. I have many contacts in the Halewood area and recently attended a wedding there. During the evening I had a number of conversations with people living in Halewood who asked me about the reorganisation of local government in the area. I assure my hon. Friend the Member for Widnes (Mr. Oakes) that all the people to whom I spoke that night were in favour of continuing their links with Liverpool.

My hon. Friend has tended to exaggerate the support he received from people in Halewood. I tend to go along with my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) in the view that if petitions were distributed asking for support for the retention of links with Liverpool a completely different picture would emerge.

I wish to quote from a letter from the town clerk of Liverpool which deals with the Ford factory. The letter says: Apart from the original small village of Halewood, the Parish essentially consists of Liverpool Corporation housing estates and the Ford factory. At the time Ford's came to Halewood it was made clear by the Whiston authority that Ford were coming in the context of Liverpool's unemployment problem, a problem which did not exist to anything like that degree in Whiston, and that Liverpool's ratepayers should accordingly pay for the local government services which were required.… The Ford motor factory at Halewood which was brought to the area by the Liverpool City Council, with the support of hon. Members from Merseyside, and it pays a small amount of its rates to Liverpool and the larger part to the Whiston Rural District It may interest hon. Members to know the figures given me this morning by the town clerk of Liverpool, which show that the present rates paid to Liverpool amount to £49,560. A proposed small extension will increase the figure to £53,000 per annum. The rates paid to the Whiston authority amount to £659,650. A proposed further extension will increase the amount slightly to £661,320 a year. The grand total paid to both authorities, including the two additional amounts in respect of the proposed extensions, is approximately £715,000.

10.30 p.m.

The reason why I quote the figures of rates paid is that, due to the policy of Liverpool Corporation over the years of rehousing people from Liverpool's slums in the suburbs and neighbouring overspill authorities, the city has lost a lot of rate support grant. Figures provided by the city treasurer only this morning show that the estimated loss in rate support grant due to the drop in population is £1·5 million in each of the years 1971–72 and 1972–73. I am also advised by the city treasurer that, of the recent increase of 17p in the £ in rates, it is estimated that no less than 13p is because of the loss of rate support grant.

I feel strongly that Liverpool ratepayers, who have borne the cost of providing services to the Ford factory and of building thousands of houses and flats for Liverpool citizens, should now lose Halewood from District 11(b). The case has not been made out for maintaining the present position under the Bill on either social or economic grounds.

Liverpool City Council has protested at the area split which is now proposed. The opposition comes from both major political parties and has the support of the minority Liberal Party. That shows the strong feeling of the authority. On 29th June, the Liverpool Echo carried a report to this effect, quoting the Liberal leader on the council, Councillor Cyril Carr, as saying that it would be an absurdity to split Halewood from Liverpool in an effort to make the original St. Helens district into two viable districts.

Photo of Mr Gordon Oakes Mr Gordon Oakes , Widnes

I again make the point that I made to my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer). The argument of my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Exchange (Mr. Parry) could apply to Kirkby, Huyton, Cantril Farm and possibly Runcorn and Skelmersdale. What is the difference?

Photo of Mr Eric Heffer Mr Eric Heffer , Liverpool, Walton

Because it was not the original plan.

Photo of Mr Robert Parry Mr Robert Parry , Liverpool Exchange

My hon. Friend the Member for Walton has given the answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Widnes.

I am glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Walton pointed out that the Amendment in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Widnes is a private one. I understand that the Labour Party's temporary co-ordinating committee for the reorganisation of local government on Merseyside has considered the Amendment and decided to vote against it.

The recent visit to this House by the leader of Liverpool City Council, who had discussions with a number of my right hon. and hon. Friends and possibly with the Minister, shows the strong feelings of the people of Liverpool about Halewood being taken from District 11(b). Therefore, I fully support the opposition to the Government's proposal outlined by my right hon. and hon. Friends.

Photo of Mr Michael McGuire Mr Michael McGuire , Ince

I have a constituency interest in District 11(c) I have successfully argued why part of it—namely, Skelmersdale and Holland Urban District Council—should be taken out, but a small part still remains in the old District 11(c).

We have had representations today from my right hon. Friend the Member for Newton (Mr. Frederick Lee) that we should further carve up District 11(c). This district probably has the knottiest problem in the whole of the metropolitan areas. To find a natural unit based on the St. Helens district poses tremendous problems, and I support the Amendments moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Widnes (Mr. Oakes).

I will deal with the argument which Liverpool City Members, particularly my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer), have been trotting out. It is claimed that because of the social and housing investment by Liverpool City Corporation in Halewood, which has been outside the city boundary for as long as anyone can remember, and the fact that it was mistakenly included in the earlier proposals, Liverpool should retain Halewood. My hon. Friend the Member for Widnes dealt with that argument most effectively.

I appeal to my hon. Friends, if they are Socialists, particularly my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Mr. Ogden), who said that we should detach ourselves from our constituency interests here and think of the greater good—

Photo of Mr Michael McGuire Mr Michael McGuire , Ince

I will give way to my hon. Friend, but not yet. I have not got steam up yet. He suggested that we should detach ourselves from our narrow-minded parochial constituency interests and think of the great Edmund Burke concept. I agree entirely, but my hon. Friend did not advance that argument. The greater good and the greater need is for the new District 11(cc), or whatever we are to call it. As my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Toxteth (Mr. Crawshaw) pointed out in a most pertinent speech, the greater need still is for the old District 11(c) because it had social and dereliction problems to overcome which, considering the rateable value, posed a bigger problem for the old District 11(c) and for both of them now than it did for Liverpool. My hon. Friend pointed out that if Halewood is taken out of the Liverpool Metropolitan District it represents infinitesimal terms, the fraction of a penny, for Liverpool, but it means a considerable amount to the new and old District 11(c) to help it overcome the social problems it will have. I will give way to my hon. Friend.

Photo of Mr Eric Ogden Mr Eric Ogden , Liverpool, West Derby

I was waiting for my hon. Friend to come to a temporary full stop. I should like to put two quick points. First, Liverpool Members were not trotting out arguments. We were putting forward serious reasons, which we thought would be accepted, for opposing the Amendments.

Secondly, my hon. Friend, who came from the same background, the same union and the same coalmines as I did, might be doing my hon. Friends and me an injustice by suggesting "if we are Socialists". We proved our Socialism long before coming here and since we have been here.

Photo of Mr Michael McGuire Mr Michael McGuire , Ince

I am sorry that my hon. Friend should take it in that light. He does not need to tell me that I know his background and he knows mine. We have shared the same office for many years. In fact, he wanted to link up with his reorganisation when we moved to another office. My hon. Friend has taken it rather badly. I am used to stating an argument forcibly. I apologise if I hinted he has lost his Socialism.

I was trying to remind my hon. Friends that we are talking about a jam pot which Liverpool naturally wants to keep. Liverpool has adduced arguments to show why Halewood should be included within its boundaries. I am arguing that if we are talking about reorganisation and about viable units the greater need is that of new District 11(c). The amount may be only a fraction of a penny from Liverpool's point of view, but for District 11(c) it is a great deal.

Photo of Lieut-Colonel Dick Crawshaw Lieut-Colonel Dick Crawshaw , Liverpool Toxteth

Does my hon. Friend think that District 11(c) would be more viable as one district? If he does, would he like to put forward arguments in favour of that? If he does not, would he like to put forward arguments against its being one district?

Photo of Mr Michael McGuire Mr Michael McGuire , Ince

I do not follow that.

Photo of Lieut-Colonel Dick Crawshaw Lieut-Colonel Dick Crawshaw , Liverpool Toxteth

The suggestion is to divide District 11(c) into two. Would it not be a more viable district if it were left as one district instead of being divided into two? Would my hon. Friend like to put forward arguments against that being done?

Photo of Mr Michael McGuire Mr Michael McGuire , Ince

I shall make my speech in my own time, and I am coming to that.

I want to deal with the question of Halewood remaining in Liverpool. Most of the opposition from this side of the House has been against this carve up. It is said that the district of Halewood, although it has never been in the Liverpool City boundary, should now be included in the city. I have tried to show why it should not be.

Would it be right to carve up this area? It would be a more viable district if it were left as the original District 11(c) to include Huyton, Kirkby, and so on. The White Paper gives the answer to this problem. The Minister knows that the most difficult district in any of the metropolitan counties is the St. Helens District, and it has been from the word "go".

Prescot puzzles me a little. I know the area. I live only a few minutes walk away from there, but I consider myself a St. Helens man, living as I do in the Eccleston Park part of the town. I cannot understand Prescot wanting to get away from St. Helens, but apparently that is what it wants to do.

All these authorities have one thing in common, but they are different in character. I do not say that in the worst sense of the word, but just that they have a different outlook on life. They do not play the same games. Unfortunately, Liverpool people are plagued with watching Liverpool and Everton football clubs. They do not play rugby league football.

St. Helens did not want them to leave, but the areas made the case right from the beginning that they were not St. Helens' oriented and were attracted by habit and tradition towards Liverpool. It said that this unit does not have the harmony that is required, that it does not have the necessary community of interest.

I regret that the area is to be carved up. I listened with interest to the speech of my right hon. Gentleman the Member for Newton (Mr. Frederick Lee). I refer to his area not as Newton-le-Willows but as Earlestown as it is better known to St. Helens people, I dispute what my right hon. Friend said about people looking not to St. Helens but to Warrington. St. Helens has some attraction but they are more oriented towards Warrington for many of the essential services including, probably, shopping. However, the community divide is nothing like as great as the community divide between Prescot for some part but mainly Huyton and Kirkby under the old District 11(c).

10.45 p.m.

I regret, too, that the Minister has to listen to so much special pleading from hon. Members who are forgetting the Edmund Burke concept. I, like many hon. Members, receive letters explaining why a certain manufacturing concern or activity should be excluded from the operation of value added tax. Similarly, everybody wants to be excused from District 11(c). It is rumoured that there will be a split, with the Liverpool end going on its own and the St. Helens district going on its own.

I hope that the fears about financial viability which are casting a doubt in respect of both suggested districts are unfounded. The miners have a saying "Samson was strong and Solomon was wise, but neither of them could pay Beawt Brass".

I know why the right hon. Gentleman has taken Halewood out of Liverpool and put it where it should have been in the first place—the old District 11(c). If the district is split that is the natural home for it, because it will need the money for it more than Liverpool. I support the Amendment, and, if it comes to it, I shall vote for it.

Photo of Mr Graham Page Mr Graham Page , Crosby

To go back to the beginning of this series of debates—it started rather a long time ago—the hon. Member for Bootle (Mr. Simon Mahon) proposed that Southport and Bootle should be hived off from the present district consisting of Bootle, Crosby and Southport.

I must, as the Member for Crosby, declare an interest, but I am sure that the House will forgive the hon. Member for Bootle and me for having a squabble about our constituencies on the Floor of the House.

If it had not been for the obvious sincerity with which the hon. Member for Bootle put forward the case, I should not have thought that he could be serious in suggesting the break-up of the district all of the components of which want to be in that district together. There was nothing from Bootle, after Southport had said that it wished to join the district, to say that Bootle did not want to be in it. I entirely deny that Southport does not want to be in the district. It came in voluntarily and willingly and is working very well with it, a fact which my hon. Friend the Member for Ormskirk (Mr. Soref) and my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Southport (Mr. Percival) will endorse.

I know of no stresses which could endanger the district. The co-ordinating committee has been getting on well with the work. This is an absolutely model district—a balance of industry, commerce, residences; a balance of work and leisure, a balance of recreation, holiday and conference centres, and so on; a broad spectrum of social organisation. I cannot advise the House to accept the hon. Gentleman's Amendment, which would break the district up.

Photo of Mr Simon Mahon Mr Simon Mahon , Bootle

If that is so, why did not the Government include Southport in the original proposals? When did Southport suggest that it would come in? Why did it make the change? Will the right hon. Gentleman take it from me that, on the best authority in the whole of that district, there are tremendous stresses already betraying themselves between officials and councillors which will take a great deal of getting over, though they are not insurmountable?

Photo of Mr Graham Page Mr Graham Page , Crosby

Of course there are stresses, particularly between officials, when four or five districts have to be combined and their officials have to sort out the very difficult problem of who shall do what in the new district. We are getting that sort of discussion and stress throughout the country. It is nothing unusual, and it will be sorted out, particularly with the help of the Staff Commission.

The people and elected representatives of Ellesmere Port have expressed their wish to be in Cheshire. I do not say that this has been a guiding factor in all cases, especially when that wish has been indicated by a PRO firm conducting a referendum in the district. But it has been much more freely given in the case of Ellesmere Port, and it was a fairly decisive factor in this case. Ellesmere Port is a part of the same belt of development as Runcorn, Widnes, Chester and Ince. In the case of Chester there have been planning studies in operation and the link with Runcorn new town on the other side of the water is very close.

Those links are likely to grow in future. For example, Helsby and Frodsham are fast developing as residential suburbs of Ellesmere Port. The green belt between Ellesmere Port and Chester will be maintained, of course, and it is more of a link than a separation between the two. Therefore, we wish to retain Ellesmere Port within the County of Cheshire.

The main point of the debate concerns the movement of Halewood from the position in which we placed it in the Bill. I must correct what has been said time and time again in the debate about the Amendment taking Halewood away from Liverpool. Halewood has always been a part of the Whiston rural district since 1894. The fact that a large town invests in a rural district does not give it the right to deprive that rural district of that area.

Photo of Mr Eric Heffer Mr Eric Heffer , Liverpool, Walton

The Minister knows very well that what was being said was that it was being taken out of the proposals originally made by the Government in the Bill. Everyone knows that it has never been a part of Liverpool, but it was in the Government's original proposals. We want to know why it is now being taken out when it was obviously and naturally accepted by the Government as part of the 11(c) grouping.

Photo of Mr Graham Page Mr Graham Page , Crosby

The hon. Member said all that before.

Photo of Mr Graham Page Mr Graham Page , Crosby

I will give the hon. Member a reason. The hon. Member for Widnes (Mr. Oakes) put the case for the proposal very well but at that time I was not convinced that the boundary was wrong. Buton re-examining it I considered that the area which created the growth should be in the same local government area as that which has to support the infrastructure for that growth. In this case Halewood has created the growth for Whiston rural district. It has created it by the Ford factory. Whiston has to support the infrastructure, the sewage disposal, the refuse collection and so forth. Therefore, to apply that principle makes sense of the proposal that the hon. Member for Widnes has put forward.

This was a separate consideration to that of the division of Huyton from St. Helens. In that case there was consultation with all the local authorities concerned; and I pay tribute to the Leader of the Opposition and the hon. Member for Widnes for acting as the go-between for the local authorities and for helping me to understand the opposition of the local authorities on the matter. When I found that every local authority in the area was in favour of the division it was a matter we had to consider seriously.

I accept the argument of the hon. Member for Widnes and the hon. Member for St. Helens (Mr. Spriggs) for the creation of the two metropolitan districts of Huyton and St. Helens. They make sense in local government. I have only one worry about them, and that relates to the hospital service, where there could be problems. We shall be looking into them, but meanwhile I do not think it would be right to allow this consideration to be the main determinant of the new local government pattern.

I come to the problem at the eastern end of these two new local government areas of Huyton and St. Helens—the problem of Newton-le-Willows. I was shaken by the argument of the right hon. Member for Newton (Mr. Frederick Lee)——

Photo of Mr Eric Heffer Mr Eric Heffer , Liverpool, Walton

Before we come on to that, may I ask whether that was really the only argument the Minister will put forward for taking Halewood out of the Liverpool area? If it is, I have never heard anything more disgraceful. It is no argument at all. The right hon. Gentleman has not made out a case.

Photo of Mr Graham Page Mr Graham Page , Crosby

I do not intend to put forward any other argument, because that was an extremely strong argument. The only argument the hon. Gentleman put forward for his proposition was that Liverpool wanted the rateable value, the value of the factory at Halewood—that it wanted to deprive Whiston of something that belonged to Whiston.

Photo of Mr Graham Page Mr Graham Page , Crosby

That is not a sound argument.

I was touching on the proposition of the right hon. Member for Newton. As on his previous Amendment, he put points with some force, with which I do not at present agree. I find great difficulty in arguing from my no great knowledge of Newton. Though I have been there many times and know the district, the right hon. Gentleman has greater knowledge. The whole urban district lies on the hinge of Merseyside, Greater Manchester and Cheshire. It is a distribution centre, and, therefore, has its contacts with all three. But I thought that the links with the metropolitan county were stronger than those to the south. The decisive factor was the physical location, which makes it more reasonable for the conurbation boundary to run along its southern rather than its northern boundary, and the fact that the western part of Newton-le-Willows shares common problems of rehabilitation with the Haydock and Ashton-in-Makerfield areas, both of which are now in Merseyside, in St. Helens. I had thought that the contacts were greater in that direction than towards Warrington. I am prepared to give the same assurances as I gave on the previous occasion, that I should like to look into the matter again with the right hon. Gentleman and see whether it can be solved. I believe that what the hon. Member for Ince (Mr. McGuire) said is true, that there is an affinity between St. Helens and Newton, but I should like to discuss that again with the right hon. Gentleman.

Photo of Mr Michael McGuire Mr Michael McGuire , Ince

Does not the Minister agree that to include Burtonwood in the new District 11(c) would make more sense than its exclusion? The case for the exclusion of Newton is stronger because Burtonwood is in the Warrington district.

Photo of Mr Graham Page Mr Graham Page , Crosby

That is the sort of thing I should like to discuss further.

We have had a long discussion on the Amendments. At one time I thought that I should have drawn the boundary to divide between those areas which play Rugby Union and those which play Rugby League. In my own district we play Rugby Union. We provide all the professionals for St. Helens and Wigan and all the rest. We are the nursery. That is a diversion from local government, but it sometimes shows an indication of the communities and their interests. Perhaps it shows the difference between Huyton and St. Helens.

11.0 p.m.

Photo of Mr Harold Wilson Mr Harold Wilson , Huyton

I hope I shall be accorded such indulgence as is appropriate to someone making a maiden speech on this Bill. It is axiomatic that anyone who speaks on local government reform who does not have to wants his head examining.

Any Government embarking on local government reform are likely to make more enemies than friends, both within their own party and on the opposite side of Parliament. That was the case when we set up the Maud Commission. That is the case in respect of this Local Government Bill.

Both sides are agreed that local government reform, including changes in boundaries, is urgently necessary. While we would perhaps have preferred a rather differently orientated scheme, not so much on a county basis working inwards but on an urban basis working outwards, we recognise that the present Government are entitled to put forward this proposal, this Bill and this Schedule.

I must declare that I have constituency interests in this matter, as the right hon. Gentleman has just declared his interest. I hope, in part at least, to be speaking about the wider Merseyside area because most of those who have spoken are Merseyside Members of Parliament.

I have lived on the other side of the Mersey for many years. I can speak with some sympathy about the problems of Ellesmere Port and the area represented by Mr. Speaker.

I propose not to go into the points raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Bootle (Mr. Simon Mahon), nor to take up the question of Ellesmere Port, nor the question raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Newton (Mr. Frederick Lee), of the Newton-le-Willows/Earlestown district. I wish to confine myself to two separate subjects. One is the division of District 11 (c) into the new areas of 11 (c) and 11 (cc).

My hon. Friend the Member for Widnes (Mr. Oakes) and I led a deputation to the right hon. Gentleman on the question not of Halewood but of the division of 11 (c) and 11 (cc). We were most courteously received. The right hon. Gentleman listened very carefully to what we were saying. We made it plain to the right hon. Gentleman that we would not discuss the interests of any area that was not represented in the deputation; for example, if there was to be any question of the future boundaries of St. Helens we were not competent to speak on that. We were concerned with the area which we represented.

The arguments for separation have been well put by a number of my hon. Friends, though not all have agreed, and also by the right hon. Gentleman. In part we have heard the arguments about sport which the deputation urged on the hon. Gentleman. We have rugby league in Huyton. Most of my constituents are divided between Liverpool and Everton. St. Helens has different loyalties. But there is more than that.

In so far as what has been called, for shorthand purposes, the ethnic difference, there is a very big different between those who are essentially Liverpool-based and those who belong to the old Lancashire, summarised by some of us as the difference between scouse and black pudding. That is the ethnic difference somewhat simplified.

Photo of Mr Eric Heffer Mr Eric Heffer , Liverpool, Walton

I never did like black pudding.

Photo of Mr Harold Wilson Mr Harold Wilson , Huyton

I know that my hon. Friend never did like black pudding. That is why some of my scouses do not want to be with St. Helens, with respect to my hon. Friend the Member for St. Helens (Mr. Spriggs), who likes black pudding. I happen to like both.

There was a very serious argument on this matter going far beyond the ethnic difficulties. The area in the proposed area 11 (cc) is mainly characterised by the Liverpool overspill, the highest birth rate in the country and the highest school population and potential school population in the country. The recent census—and many of my hon. Friends have seen the figures published by the Lancashire County Council—show that Kirkby, Huyton and Halewood, for example, are only a little behind the area with the highest proportion of under 15s in the population in the county, probably in the country. This means there is a high cost for this 11(cc) area for educational provision of county schools and denominational schools.

On the other hand, St. Helens has a different problem. It has a high birth rate but an enormous problem over urban renewal. With 11(cc) as it stands there would be a big education burden in the newer areas, the urban renewal and the older areas, particularly when we remember that, contrary to our view, education is a second-tier authority responsibility, not a first-tier authority responsibilty. That is one good reason for splitting the two.

I pay tribute to the right hon. Gentleman for the courtesy with which he received the deputation and for his decision.

I come to the much more difficult problem of Halewood, and here I find myself at odds with my hon. Friend the Member for Widnes, who is wearing his Freeman of Hale tie tonight. We have some little problems here. I shall probably be massacred or lynched in my constituency for what I am about to say, but I am trying to look at the problem in the interests of the wider Merseyside as a whole. I know my hon. Friend will disagree and can produce powerful arguments in his favour. Nevertheless, if we had remained as 11(c) with our educational costs and our urban renewal costs, it would have been essential to press for Halewood to come in. I know my hon. Friend disagrees, for reasons he has already urged, and I do not depreciate them.

With the separation, despite the enormous burdens on the Huyton-Kirkby-Prescot-Whiston 11 (cc) area, we have to consider the question of Halewood. It is a powerful argument used by my hon. Friend. He is the Member for Halewood, and he has told us what the people of Halewood want. This is something which should not be lightly disregarded, and I do not disregard it. We know it has been the Whiston Rural District Council and the Lancashire County Council which have borne, mainly through a rate burden falling on the people outside Halewood, what the right hon. Gentleman called the infrastructure. I do not underrate that. I do not think that there are any politics in this. I do not believe that the numbers on the register in Halewood will make all that much difference to the Labour or Tory balance, whether in Liverpool or anywhere else. It is a question of rateable values, and in a sense that has to be set against the argument used by my hon. Friend.

Studying the interests of wider Merseyside as a whole, I feel some regret that we could not have achieved 11(cc) in another way which did not involve the Halewood decision. I would have hoped—I know great consideration was given to this—that we could have looked elsewhere to make up the vital numbers. The right hon. Gentleman is in great difficulties. He has to face pressures from hon. Members in all parts of the House, from all parts of the country, pressing for smaller authorities, and he has rightly resisted these. It is a fact that if we had taken 11(c) and split it into two, one or other part of it would have been too small to be viable in the terms he has laid down. We understand his difficulty.

I would have preferred that when consideration was given to the idea of bringing in Aintree, parts of Netherton and Thornton into the area that the right hon. Gentleman had made the Huyton area viable with some transfer from the Huyton area to the other. I would have preferred that to the proposal to take Halewood away. I hope it has not been done just to balance up the figures. On balance in the wider interests of Merseyside, despite my constituency interests—and I shall have a rough time when I go there next—I consider that Halewood should have remained as it was in the Bill.

The Minister refers to what he calls the St. Helens area or the Huyton area. I do

not know whether that means that the Government have decided that 11(cc) is to be called Huyton? This is a matter which can be left to the local authorities concerned. There is some jealously between Huyton and Kirby, as the Minister knows. There is the historic area of Prescot which is part of it, and, indeed, the postal address of Liverpool used to be "Liverpool near Prescot"250 to 300 years ago. I hope the Minister will leave the people to choose their own title. Some are canvassing Knowsley for one and St. Helens for the other. I hope that the Minister will not prejudge this.

Photo of Mr Graham Page Mr Graham Page , Crosby

Throughout the Bill where names are concerned we have relied entirely on local areas, and if the area which I have for shorthand purposes called St. Helens come forward with another name we shall try to meet local wishes.

Question put, That the Amendment be made:—

The House divided: Ayes, 48; Noes 95.

Division No. 272.]AYES[11.12 p.m.
Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)Forrester, JohnMilne, Edward
Ashton, JoeGilbert, Dr. JohnOgden, Eric
Atkinson, NormanHeffer, Eric S.O'Halloran, Michael
Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)Horam, JohnPalmer, Arthur
Castle, Rt. Hn. BarbaraHughes, Mark (Durham)Parry, Robert (Liverpool, Exchange)
Clark, David (Colne Valley)Irvine,Rt.Hn.SirArthur (Edge Hill)Pentland, Norman
Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)Jeger, Mrs. LenaPrescott, John
Cohen, StanleyJohnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)
Concannon, J. D.Judd, FrankRoper, John
Crawshaw, RichardKaufman, GeraldSheldon, Robert (Ashton-under-Lyne)
Crossman, Rt. Hn. RichardLatham, ArthurSkinner, Dennis
Dalyell, TamLyons, Edward (Bradford, E.)Spriggs, Leslie
Davis, Terry (Bromsgrove)McNamara, J. KevinUrwin, T. W.
Dell, Rt. Hn. EdmundMarsden, F.Vickers, Dame Joan
English, MichaelMarshall, Dr. EdmundTELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)Mellish, Rt. Hn. RobertMr. James A. Dunn and
Foot, MichaelMikardo, IanMr. Simon Mahon.
NOES
Adley, RobertCrowder, F. P.Hornsby-Smith,Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia
Astor, JohnDean, PaulHunt, John
Atkins, HumphreyDrayson, G. B.Kaberry, Sir Donald
Beamish, Col. Sir TuftonEdwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)Kimball, Marcus
Benyon, W.Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)King, Tom (Bridgwater)
Berry, Hn. AnthonyElliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne,N.)Lane, David
Biffen, JohnFenner, Mrs. PeggyLegge-Bourke, Sir Harry
Biggs-Davison, JohnFidler, MichaelLloyd,Rt.Hn.Geoffrey (Sut'nC'field)
Bossom, Sir CliveFortescue, TimLoveridge, John
Bowden, AndrewFowler, NormanLuce, R. N.
Bray, RonaldFox, MarcusMcCrindle, R. A.
Bryan, Sir PaulGibson-Watt, DavidMather, Carol
Buck, AntonyGoodhew, VictorMawby, Ray
Burden, F. A.Gray, HamishMaxwell-Hyslop, R. J.
Butler, Adam (Bosworth)Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)Meyer, Sir Anthony
Chapman, SydneyGummer, J. SelwynMiscampbell, Norman
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)Gurden, HaroldMoate, Roger
Cockeram, EricHaselhurst, AlanMonks, Mrs. Connie
Cooke, RobertHawkins, PaulMontgomery, Fergus
Cordle, JohnHolt, Miss MaryMore, Jasper
Cormack, PatrickHordern, PeterNeave, Airey
Normanton, TomSinclair, Sir GeorgeTurton, Rt. Hn. Sir Robin
Onslow, CranleySpeed, KeithWaddington, David
Owen, Idris (Stockport, N.)Spence, JohnWalker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)
Page, Rt. Hn. Graham (Crosby)Stanbrook, IvorWalker-Smith, Rt. Hn. Sir Derek
Percival, IanStewart-Smith, Geoffrey (Belper)Wall, Patrick
Pym, Rt. Hn. FrancisSutcliffe, JohnWeatherill, Bernard
Ramsden, Rt. Hn. JamesTaylor, Frank (Moss Side)Wilkinson, John
Redmond, RobertTebbit, NormanWinterton, Nicholas
Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)
Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)Mr. Michael Jopling and
Shelton, William (Clapham)Trew, PeterMr. Oscar Murton.

Question accordingly negatived.

Amendment proposed: No. 15, in page 194, leave out lines 5 and 6.—[Mr. Oakes.]

Question accordingly agreed to.

Amendments made: No. 966, in page 194, leave out lines 7 to 20 and insert:

'District (c) The county borough of St. Helens—In the administrative county of Lancaster—

Question put, That the Amendment be made:—

The House divided: Ayes 101, Noes 36.

District (cc) In the administrative County of Lancaster—the urban districts of Huyton-with-Roby, Kirkby and Prescot;the rural district of Whiston except the areas in district (c) and Cheshire.In the rural district of West Lancashire, the parish of Simonswood'.

Question accordingly negatived.

Photo of Mr Graham Page Mr Graham Page , Crosby

I beg to move Amendment No. 19, in page 195, line 15, column 1, leave out 'Tyneside' and insert 'Tyne and Wear'.

Amendment proposed: No. 17, in page 194, leave out line 24 and insert: 'the boroughs of Bebington and Ellesmere Port'.—[Mr. Armstrong.]

Question put, That the Amendment be made:—

The House divided: Ayes 55, Noes 96.

No. 94, in page 202, line 21, column 2, leave out 'Tyneside' and insert 'Tyne and Wear'.

No. 911, in page 204, line 3, at end insert: '3AB. The boundary dividing the borough of Whitley Bay referred to in Part 1 of this Schedule shall be such as the Secretary of State may by order determine on or near the general line of the access road to Hartley West Farm, Hartley Lane, West End, the northern boundaries of Ordnance Survey parcels 0057, 2657 and 4156 and then north-eastwards to the boundary of the borough'.

No. 114, in page 204, line 27, leave out 'Tyneside' and insert 'Tyne and Wear'.

Photo of Mr Graham Page Mr Graham Page , Crosby

This is an Amendment to change the name of Tyneside to Tyne and Wear, in accordance with local wishes.

Photo of Mr Frederick Willey Mr Frederick Willey , Sunderland North

I wish to thank the Minister for the Amendment. The change was proposed by the Borough of Sunderland and we appreciate the Minister's action.

This is a matter that is not unimportant to us. The North-East has always been an area easily recognisable and to designate, but it has always been difficult to designate its constituent parts. Some years ago, Sir Sadler Foster tried to overcome the difficulty of attracting industry to the region by suggesting that it should be called "The Three Rivers Country", but the suggestion did not prove sufficiently popular to be adopted.

Our proceedings might be even further expedited if the Minister would correct something in later Amendments. The Secretary of State's name has been put to Amendment No. 459. I cannot believe that that is correct, as the County Borough of Sunderland has not been consulted about that subject. I hope that the Minister will be able to set our minds at rest by assuring us that no such view as might be expressed by the name of the Secretary of State appearing on that Amendment will be pursued until Sunderland has been afforded an opportunity to consult him.

11.45 p.m.

Photo of Mr Edward Milne Mr Edward Milne , Blyth

I wish to make two points in connection with Amendment No. 910, which is supported by the hon. Member for Tynemouth (Dame Irene Ward), who is unable to be present. The first is that it is possibly a unique Amendment in the sense that a referendum was held in the village to decide its contents. Secondly, and possibly even more important, it covers the area in which I live. I can give no higher commendation for the Amendment.

Amendment agreed to

Further Amendment made: No. 910, in page 195, column 2, leave out line 27 and insert: 'the borough of Wallsend; so much of the borough of Whitley Bay as lies south of the boundary referred to in paragraph 3AB of Part III of this Schedule'.—[Mr. Edward Milne.]

Photo of Mr Norman Pentland Mr Norman Pentland , Chester-le-Street

I beg to move Amendment No. 275, in page 195, leave out lines 36 to 38.

Photo of Mr Selwyn Lloyd Mr Selwyn Lloyd , Wirral

With this Amendment, it will be convenient to discuss Amendments Nos. 276, in line 47, leave out 'Hetton'.

No. 1041, to leave out 'Houghton-le-Spring'.

No. 459, in line 48, leave out 'Seaham'.

No. 277, to leave out 'and Washington'.

No. 20, in line 52, column 2, at end insert: 'and also so much of the said parish of Harraton as lies west of that designated area and north of the boundary referred to in paragraph 3A of Part III of this Schedule'.

No. 1040, in line 54, leave out 'Dalton-le-Dale, Seaton with Slingley', and

No. 105, in page 204, line 3, at end insert: '3A. The boundary in the parish of Harraton referred to in Part I of this Schedule shall be such as the Secretary of State may by order determine on or near the general line of the link road C8 between Western Highway and Vigo Lane'.

Photo of Mr Norman Pentland Mr Norman Pentland , Chester-le-Street

The purpose of Amendment No. 275 is to have the parishes of Birtley and Lamesley retained in the County of Durham and not included in new District 2 of the Tyne and Wear metropolitan authority.

The Minister is aware of the depth of feeling existing in my constituency about the proposals embodied in the Bill affecting the parishes of Birtley and Lamesley. From the outset, everyone concerned has requested me to impress upon the right hon. Gentleman and the Government their intensely strong feelings about the proposals and their desire to retain their long-established and historic identity with the County of Durham. I happen to have lived in my constituency all my life. I know the area, and it goes without saying that I share the concern of my constituents about the Government's proposals. They have my complete support in their objections to the proposals affecting the areas to which I have referred.

The Minister knows that Durham County Council, the Chester-le-Street rural district council, the Chester-le-Street urban district council and the parish councils of Birtley and Lamesley have made the strongest representations to him. They have made them without emotion, but with logic and realism, facing what is in the best interests of sensible planning and realistic local government administration.

My hon. Friend the Member for Durham, North-West (Mr. Armstrong) and I have met the Minister and his officials at his Department on two occasions. We have had lengthy discussions with him about all the issues involved. I have also presented to the right hon. Gentleman petitions in which the people of Birtley and Lamesley by an outstanding majority—80 per cent. of the population having signed the petitions—have expressed in no uncertain terms their desire to retain their identity with Durham County. In addition, scores of personal letters have been sent on to the right hon. Gentleman from individuals and organisations.

It seems very strange to me and my constituents that the Minister has simply brushed aside these strong feelings, because all along the line he has indicated that the Government would be guided in their proposals by the reaction of the people affected by such proposals. Here is an area where 80 per cent. of the population have expressed their feelings about the Government's proposals. I challenge the right hon. Gentleman to cite any other area of the country where 80 per cent. of the people have indicated their desire to remain in a certain local government unit and he has not accepted it. In other cases, the right hon. Gentleman has accepted people's opposition when only 20, 30 or 40 per cent. of the populations have signed petitions and sent them to him.

On 18th January, during the thirteenth sitting of the Standing Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Durham, North-West (Mr. Armstrong) moved an Amendment standing in both our names. In an excellent speech he explained to the Minister the logic behind our proposal to have Birtley and Lamesley removed from the Tyne and Wear Metropolitan County and retained in the new Durham non-metropolitan county. Like myself, my hon. Friend was completely astonished that at that stage the Minister was not prepared even to accept that reasoned Amendment.

I do not propose to cover the technical issues dealt with so effectively by my hon. Friend on that occasion; nor do I intend to go over the question where realistic boundaries should be drawn for Birtley and Lamesley, because the Minister and his Department are fully aware of the case which has been advanced by my hon. Friend and I, by Durham County Council, by the Chester-le-Street Rural District Council and the other councils involved in my area on the boundary issue. In brief, the Minister knows, probably better than anyone else, that the boundary proposals suggested in the Bill are absolutely disgraceful in terms of realistic local government planning.

However, since the Committee stage something else has happened. The House will be aware that the Local Government Boundary Commission has submitted draft proposals to the Minister for new districts in the English non-metropolitan counties. The Commission proposes that seven new districts should be established in the new Durham County area. It is proposed that Chester-le-Street Rural District Council and Chester-le-Street Urban District Council should amalgamate to form one of these districts. This is acceptable to us. It is also acceptable to Durham County Council.

However, looking at the population strength of this new district we find that it is only 49,919. This means that this district is completely under strength. Indeed, looking at the other six new districts the Commission proposes for Durham County, we find that the population strength of the Chester-le-Street district is 31,680 less than the smallest of these six new districts. It goes without saying that the rateable value of this new district is also most inadequate.

Therefore, we submit that the case we have put forward all along the line to have Birtley and Lamesley retained in the new Durham County has been justified and strengthened very much by the draft proposals that have been submitted to the Minister by the Local Government Boundary Commission.

What are the facts? The facts are that if Birtley, with its population of 12,800, and Lamesley, with its population of 4,200, are excluded, the rateable value for the district will be reduced by almost 50 per cent. and the population by a quarter. In my view, if the Government insist that the parishes of Birtley and Lamesley should be retained in the Tyne and Wear Metropolitan County based on Gateshead, they are guilty of turning the principles embodied in the Bill upside down.

We are advised, and the Minister has advised on more than one occasion, that the object of this reform is to give better government at local level. That aim is completely denied to my constituents if Birtley and Lamesley are taken out of Durham County.

I want to impress upon the Minister that his proposal to transfer these two parishes to Gateshead is based on a false premise. He must know that Birtley is now fully developed and in that context would be of no value at all to Gateshead. Furthermore, the addition to Birtley and Lamesley to Gateshead would only increase the population and the rateable value of the new Gateshead district by a very small amount, whereas if the two parishes were retained in Durham County and formed part of the new Chester-le-Street County district they would be of tremendous value in providing a sensible, realistic and viable unit of local Government.

Like every other hon. Member who feels deeply about the issues involved in the Bill, I could speak at great length about the many aspects involved for my constituents. However, in dealing with the Birtley and Lamesley aspect I want to conclude by again trying to impress upon the Minister that he should recog- nise above all else the strength of feeling that exists among my constituents in the parishes of Birtley and Lamesley about the Government's proposals.

Every organisation, all political parties and the churches are unanimous in their desire to remain in the County of Durham. Like myself, they are dismayed and angry that their long history and traditions as citizens of the County of Durham is to be broken by the Government proposal which makes neither sense nor logic of realistic local government reform.

I appeal to the Minister and to the Government to honour their promise in the White Paper, because they say there that power should go to those people who would exercise decisions locally and ensure that local government is given every opportunity to take that initiative and responsibility effectively. We agree with that and we accept it, but that can be done in this case only if Amendment No. 275 is accepted.

I turn briefly to Amendment No. 277, because the Bill also proposes that Washington will be taken out of Durham County and transferred to District 2(e) in the Tyne-Wear metropolitan area based on Sunderland. Here again I emphasise most strongly that all sections of the population of Washington wish to retain their long historical and traditional links with the County of Durham.

The Washington Urban District Council has convened special meetings on the Government's proposals and the people of Washington have made known their dismay about the Government's intentions. Washington has a distinct and separate identity and is clearly recognisable as a community. Furthermore, it is not linked by continuous development with the Tyneside-Wearside conurbation and as far as I am aware there are no proposals to bring that about.

The facts are that the urban district and the new town of Washington have practically no affinity with Sunderland County Borough or with any of the other communities in the conurbation. The development of Washington new town, the greater part of which lies within the urban area, is a significant factor in the case for excluding Washington Urban District from the metropolitan area.

As long ago as 1961 Washington Urban District Council and Durham County Council initiated a proposal for a new town, and prior to the establishment of the Washington Development Corporation in 1964 it had been agreed that if necessary they would go ahead with such a project as a joint effort between the county council and the urban district council.

12 midnight.

Another fact that cannot be denied is that the co-operation that has existed between the new town development corporation and Washington Urban District Council and Durham County Council has been largely instrumental in securing the successful progress of the new town. The Government's proposals, if implemented, will be detrimental to this progress.

The Minister for Local Government and Development, who has visited Washington New Town, will agree that remarkable progress has been made in industry in the new town. Most of the land allocated in eight main areas has already been developed or is in the process of being developed. The Government have granted further land for industrial expansion. National and international companies are successfully established in the new town. In addition, a long-established chemical company and two large coalmines operate in the area. Unfortunately, one of the pits has to close in October.

The Minister knows also about the considerable progress that has been made in the provision of housing by the Washington Urban District Council and the new town development corporation. A start has been made on the construction of Washington town centre, which will provide the main shopping facility for the new town and the surrounding area. The development corporation is ensuring that almost 1 million sq. ft. of land is made available for the building of commercial and professional offices, a health centre, with regional hospital board and industrial health centre facilities, restaurants, public houses, a police station, a library, and a sports centre which will include eventually a swimming pool.

It should be obvious to the Minister and all others concerned that Washington will become in a very short time more and more self-sufficient as regards indus- try, housing, shopping and other commercial requirements and will be less reliant on other areas.

So I could go on. Once again, I impress upon the Government the strong feeling that the entire population of Washington have about the proposals in the Bill. The people of Washington have historic and traditional connections with the county of Durham which they passionately believe should not be broken.

I therefore appeal again to the Government to accept the traditional and historic links that the people of Washington have with Durham County. If my Amendment is accepted the Government will be acknowledging that sensible and realistic local government administration will continue in the years ahead at Washington.

Photo of Mr Bernard Conlan Mr Bernard Conlan , Gateshead East

I oppose Amendment No. 275. My hon. Friend the Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Pentland) opposed the Amendment with his usual fairness, with sincerity, and with a deep conviction of the Tightness of his case. Although I sympathise with my hon. Friend, I ask the Minister not to accept my hon. Friend's case. My hon. Friend claimed that the areas of Lamesley and Birtley have natural traditions and connections with the county area. Nobody can deny that these areas have for a long time been associated with the Durham County area. That is not to say that this is an ideal arrangement for local government.

The reorganisation of local government gives the South Tyneside area a chance to arrange a system which is sensible and realistic. The areas we are discussing have a greater affinity and a closer connection with the conurbation of Tyneside than they have with the county area. The areas of South Tyneside and Tyneside as a whole have a social and economic attraction to the areas of Lamesley and Birtley. One of the largest industrial estates in the country is situated in the Team Valley and one-fifth of the Team Valley trading estate is situated within the area.

It follows that the area of Lamesley and Birtley is very much dependent economically and socially on the Tyneside area as a whole. A few years ago an independent survey was made by the Universities of Newcastle and Durham in which were analysed the possibilities of local government reorganisation in the Tyneside area. The conclusions of the analysis were that not only Lamesley and Birtley should be part of the Tyneside conurbation, but so also should Chester-le-Street. We are not going that far tonight. If my hon. Friends the Members for Gateshead, West (Mr. Horam), and Blaydon (Mr. Woof) and myself had our way we might be proposing this evening that the Gateshead District (c) should not be of the proposed size but should be even larger. We might even propose that it should take in the whole of Chester-le-Street as well. However, in deference to the very strong feelings of other of my hon. Friends, we do not propose to go that far.

In a good British way I think the proposal now before us is a decent compromise. Even though District (c) will have a population of about 220,000 it is still very low compared with the districts in the rest of the metropolitan areas in the country. If the Amendment is accepted it would mean the hiving off of about 20,000 people and that would reduce the population of the area to about 200,000. I believe that to be too small by any standards, including those of the Minister. All the other districts in the metropolitan areas have populations far higher than 200,000. Rather than hive off those 20,000 in Lamesley and Birtley we should be increasing the number of people in area (c) but I shall not argue that tonight. We shall go for the good old-fashioned compromise and tell the Minister that we believe that his proposals are about right.

Photo of Mr Norman Pentland Mr Norman Pentland , Chester-le-Street

When my hon. Friend talks about compromise, does not he realise that the Minister obviously is compromising by bringing one area into County Durham at the expense of Birtley and Lamesley? Some of us would like to know why.

Photo of Mr Bernard Conlan Mr Bernard Conlan , Gateshead East

I am merely arguing about Lamesley and Birtley being part of area (c). As for compensation where County Durham is concerned, the Minister will have to justify his own case. I cannot do it for him.

I was about to say, in conclusion, that this area of Lamesley and Birtley has for many decades been part and parcel of the conurbation of Tyneside, and it would be wrong if this opportunity were missed to put right a situation that should have been put right long ago.

Photo of Mr William Hughes Mr William Hughes , City of Durham

I should like to make a few short comments on the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead, East (Mr. Conlan). It was as long ago as 1070 that the people of Gateshead showed their disrespect to the county of Durham by murdering its bishop, and what my hon. Friend proposed in his speech is little short of homicide on a similar grand scale. His arguments in favour of transferring Birtley and Lamesley to Tyneside against the wishes of their inhabitants is as brutal as the harrying of the North by William the Conqueror, and as undistinguished and unprincipled.

Nothing that my hon. Friend suggested about the historic presence of the Team Valley and Birtley and Lamesley in the conurbation of Tyneside has any reality in economic history. It is a fiction, conjured up out of the warped minds of Gateshead men.

I turn to the most appalling affair the Bill has yet produced. Under Amendment No. 459, Seaham, that creation of the third Marquess of Londonderry and John Buddle between 1820 and 1836, is to be returned, as is quite right, to County Durham, and yet apparently that on which Seaham was created, Hetton, Easington Lane and East Renton, is to be golloped up in the maw of a great Tyneside. The Minister has already suggested that Tyne and Wear should have its boundaries so closely drawn as not to include one acre that has no right to be considered as metropolitan. He has already accepted that the only conceivable reason for keeping Hetton inside such a metropolitan area is that there is to his mind a defective boundary between Hetton-le-Hole and Hetton-le-Spring. As one who perhaps knows the boundary between Hetton-le-Hole and Hetton-le-Spring rather better than many hon. Members do, I say that that is a fiction of an Ordnance Survey map which has no basis in reality. As I suggested on Second Reading, to propose to the people of Hetton-le-Hole and Easington Lane that they belong to Tyne and Wear rather than County Durham is to show a marvellous incompetence in understanding the reality of the feelings of real people that is beyond my comprehension.

12.15 a.m.

There is no political advantage in adding Hetton-le-Hole to one part or another. It is 98 per cent. Labour. It has not had a non-Labour councillor for 70 years. There is no advantage in adding that area to either side. No one on either side of the boundary believes that putting Hetton-le-Hole this way or that would upset the political balance of power. The reality is simple. Whichever way Hetton-le-Hole goes is Labour. It does not matter.

We are faced with the fact that the heartland of East Durham—for that is what Hetton-le-Hole is—should be sent off to some Cloud Cuckoo Land dreamed up in a Ministry but which has no basis in the minds of the people living there. The people living there have not indulged in a public relations campaign. They have relied—like the members of the Durham Light Infantry, of whom they have formed a major part for many centuries—on knowing they are right. To assume that Rommel, any more than the Minister, can stand in the way of the people of Hetton-le-Hole and suggest that they belong to Tyne and Wear is an aberration of which the Minister shall be guilty very soon. To pretend that an area such as that is not part of County Durham on the feeble grounds that there is an inadequate boundary, and to pretend on that ground that Hetton-le-Hole should be transferred to alien country, is a total foolishness.

I urge the Minister to look again at this problem.

We accept there is a great difficulty in finding a satisfactory southern boundary for the metropolitan area in Hetton-le-Hole and Silksworth. No one with a detailed knowledge of that area could pretend there is not. But to pretend that Seaham in Durham, Coldheseldon in Durham, and Easington Lane in Tyne and Wear makes any sense is to show a total misconception of the reality of human occupation, the movement of population, economic activity and everything else which—if this Bill passes through all stages—would make the Government the laughing stock of County Durham.

Photo of John Horam John Horam , Gateshead West

I should like to return the House of Commons from the blood curdling backwoods of Durham to the shining, modern rationality of Gateshead.

I understand why the hon. Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Pentland) has put forward this Amendment. I understand and admire the efforts of the Birtley and Lamesley Action Committee. It said it would "fight like hell for B and L" and like hell it has fought. Supposing the Minister has not withered and disappeared under the avenging finger of my hon. Friend the Member for Durham (Mr. Mark Hughes) before a vote is taken, if a vote is taken, I hope that reason will prevail and the Amendment will be defeated. I believe that it should be, because I believe that to include I amesley and Birtley in the new District (c) of the new metropolitan county of Tyne and Wear is a good, sound local government structure, and good for the citizens of Lamesley and Birtley.

I say that for three reasons. First, Lamesley and Birtley are more naturally linked with Tyneside than with Durham. The people of these places, if they do not work in Lamesley or Birtley, go further north to Team Valley and Tyneside to work. When they want to go shopping on Saturday morning they go to Tyneside. When they want major entertainment, other than television, when they stay at home, they go to Tyneside. While it is true that historically there are strong connections between Lamesley and Birtley and Durham these connections are based firstly on the mining industry which we must accept is in decline and secondly on the Church and the traditional links with the See of Durham. The day has long passed when local government boundaries must coincide with diocesan boundaries.

In the Labour Party we have always striven for wider urban areas. People at the heart of our cities have long been constrained in the narrow straitjackets of urban living and we want to give them freedom to expand in a wider urban setting. That is why, fundamentally, we must include Lamesley and Birtley and areas like that in areas such as the new metropolitan country of Tyne and Wear. In particular we have one great jewel, the Team Valley trading estate, a most important area in the economy and environment of southern Tyneside which should logically be planned as one. If Lamesley and Birtley do come into Tyne and Wear this will be planned as one and that must be right.

The new District (c) is small by any standards. To take away Lamesley and Birtley would make it smaller still. My hon. Friend the Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Pentland) would naturally say that to include Lamesley and Birtley would make Chester-le-Street smaller and that is right. But the fact must be faced that whereas with county areas the major responsibilities are with the top tier, in the metropolitan counties the major responsibilities are with the districts. Therefore it matters a great deal more if we lose out on total population with a district in a metropolitan county than it does with Chester-le-Street, because Durham has the responsibilities for providing services to local authorities.

Photo of Mr Edward Leadbitter Mr Edward Leadbitter , Hartlepools, The

I am following closely what my hon. Friend is saying about Lamesley and Birtley, and why they should be in this metropolitan district. What is the extent of the population he is talking about and what is the rateable value?

Photo of John Horam John Horam , Gateshead West

I do not know the rateable value, but the population is 17,000 I am told. The remaining population in Chester-le-Street would be 49,000 and the total population of Gateshead is 220,000.

Photo of Mr Edward Leadbitter Mr Edward Leadbitter , Hartlepools, The

If the hon. Member has come to this conclusion, is he aware that a number of metropolitan districts in metropolitan counties have considerably less population?

Photo of John Horam John Horam , Gateshead West

Yes. District (c) of the metropolitan county is the fifth smallest of those created, and if Lamesley and Birtley were subtracted, that would make it the second smallest. Three of these small districts are in the Tyne and Wear county and we can ill afford small districts which have to struggle to maintain education. There is fierce controversy over education, and these authorities must struggle to maintain education at its best.

This is why I believe that reason is opposed to the historic links and suggest that we should reject this Amendment.

Photo of Mr Gordon Bagier Mr Gordon Bagier , Sunderland South

I rise to oppose Amendments Nos. 277, 459, 1040, 1041 and 276.

I am satisfied to leave the other arguments to my hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead, West (Mr. Horam), but the effect on Sunderland, District (e), would be catastrophic if these Amendments were carried.

Photo of Mr Thomas Urwin Mr Thomas Urwin , Houghton-le-Spring

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I have your guidance on these Amendments? Is it in order for my hon. Friend to debate Amendments which have not been moved? My hon. Friend the Member for Chester-le-Street, (Mr. Pentland) moved, I understood, an Amendment, and I understood that we were moving to a Division on it.

Photo of Mr Selwyn Lloyd Mr Selwyn Lloyd , Wirral

I think I called the hon. Member for Chester-le-Street to move Amendment 275 and said that it would be in order to consider the Amendments to which the hon. Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. Bagier) has referred. These are for discussion and not necessarily for Division.

Photo of Mr Gordon Bagier Mr Gordon Bagier , Sunderland South

Yes. That is what I understood, that we could speak to the Amendments listed immediately after Amendment No. 275.

If those Amendments were carried it would entirely destroy the concept of Sunderland area, section (e) of the new Tyne and Wear area, and having listened to the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Durham (Mr. Mark Hughes) I am not sure whether he was speaking as a historian or on this Bill. He sounded like a prophet of doom, but many residents of Hetton and Seaham and those other places he referred to would come to Sunderland, in the Tyne and Wear area and find that the natives there were friendly.

My hon. Friend the Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Pentland) spoke on the Birtley and Lamesley argument which I am happy to leave to my hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead, West, but on the question of Washington, under successive Governments, it has been pointed out that for its growth point, Sunderland would look to Washington.

12.30 a.m.

Washington is a new town, one of the best in the region if not one of the best in the country. It has grown and provides employment for the whole Wear Valley. We have repeatedly asked for new industries in the knowledge that Sunderland could not grow sufficiently to provide jobs and we had to look to Washington. In considering the growth of Washington we had to take into account the dormitory aspect of Sunderland.

I know my hon. Friend the Member for Chester-le-Street feels strongly about this. He is as proud of Washington as I am. The Government's proposals for the district of Sunderland to include Washington are much more sensible than the Labour Government's proposals in which Washington was not included with Sunderland. The growth point of Washington will be an important factor in determining the growth of District (e).

I suspect that the Amendments in the name of Mr. Secretary Walker are likely to be accepted by the Government. I am alarmed by this because the Amendments concerning District (e) to which he has appended his name