Supervision and Care of Persons Put on Probation or Released from Prisons, etc.

Part of Clause 27 – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 17 July 1968.

Alert me about debates like this

Photo of Mr Thomas Steele Mr Thomas Steele , Dunbartonshire West 12:00, 17 July 1968

I beg to move, Amendment No. 18, page 18, line 26, leave out 'and' and insert: (e) arrangements for the co-operation of the local authorities with each other regarding the performance of functions under this section; and. This Amendment adds a new paragraph to subsection (3) of Clause 27. Under that subsection it is necessary for local authorities to have a probation scheme to make provision for certain matters. These are then listed in subsection (3). My new paragraph includes another provision, indicating to local authorities that they must make: arrangements for the co-operation of the local authorities with each other regarding the performance of functions under this section … The first thing I imagine my hon. Friend will say is that this is unnecessary, that there is sufficient provision in present Statutes for the co-operation of local authorities with one another. I feel that it is insufficient in this case, and would like this mandatory provision included. The other reason why I put down this Amendment is because of an undertaking which my hon. Friend gave in Committee when he said: I said that I would make arrangements between Committee and Report to discuss combinations between one local authority and another, with the local authority Associations. …I shall be able to tell hon. Members at Report stage the outcome of that meeting."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Scottish Standing Committee, 18th June, 1968; c. 359–60.] I have therefore put this Amendment down to give my hon. Friend an opportunity to tell us what has been the result of these conversations. There is a wider wider purpose to the Amendment. We all want to make a success of the provisions of Part III of the Bill. We have to consider what conditions will be operating when the Bill becomes an Act. What will be the time-table for its provisions? Before it becomes an Act the Royal Commission will have reported and made new suggestions about the boundaries of local authorities. Therefore, it is clear that many local authorities which will be under an obligation to carry out the Bill's provisions will view them with some reluctance because they will have to engage new staff and to expand the work which they are doing. They will not be very enthusiastic about entering into such commitments in order to carry out the Bill's provisions.

6.0 p.m.

As a result of Clause 27, the probation service is to be disbanded. On Monday, we had a long argument in the House about the disbandment of a regiment for which the Government had no operational requirement. But it cannot be said that the functions of the probation service will disappear. A service provided by probation officers will continue, and if we want the things done which we feel should be done the functions carried out by them will increase. If the probation service is disbanded, as the Bill suggests, and the probation officers are frittered away among the local authorities, I cannot visualise the Bill being the success which the Minister expects it to be.

We shall have two things. The local authorities will be reluctant to enter into commitments, and the probation officers transferred to local authorities will have a grievance. Therefore, from an administrative point of view, I cannot feel that the Bill will be the success which we all desire it to be.

Is it necessary to disband the probation services as it exists? Would it not be possible to implement the Bill's provisions about the creation of children's panels and the abolition of the probation committee by the new social committees taking over the responsibility? Under this arrangement the provisions of the Bill would be carried out, but the probation service would remain as a unit, and then, through the work of the social committees, there could be co-operation between the probation officers and the social welfare officers. This would enable the probation officers, working as a body, to help the social welfare workers.

I am sure that hon. Members will agree that it is essential that the experience of the skilled probation officers should be available to help with the work to be done by the social welfare officers under the new panels. There is no reason why the Secretary of State cannot so arrange matters that the social workers and probation officers come under the social work committee, and there could be agreement between the large burghs and the counties on the utilisation of the probation service in giving assistance to the social welfare workers.

Whatever arrangements are made, they will be only interim arrangements until we carry into effect the reforms suggested by the Royal Commission on Local Government which we shall be receiving by the end of the year.

What I suggest would have the added advantage that it would satisfy the courts. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State gave an undertaking to the sheriffs that adequate provision would be made to ensure that the courts were served in the way that they are served now. I find it difficult to see how that would be done administratively if the probation service were disbanded and the probation officers were distributed among the local authorities. The implementation of this undertaking would be very much easier if there were acceptance of my suggestion to leave the probation service as it is and to make arrangements for co-operation between the probation officers and the social welfare workers.

There is no reason why something like this cannot be done under Clause 27. I know that it would not be all that satisfactory. However, it would be much more satisfactory than what is likely to happen when the Bill comes into operation and the probation officers are distributed among the local authorities, which will be reluctant to carry out the Bill's provisions because they do not know the future of each local authority. I believe that my solution would help the courts, the probation service and local authorities in the interim period before we receive the Royal Commission's Report.