INDUSTRIAL EXPANSION [MONEY] (No. 2)

Part of Ways and Means – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 13 March 1968.

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Photo of Mr Tony Benn Mr Tony Benn , Bristol South East 12:00, 13 March 1968

No, I cannot give way. If the hon. Member wants to hear the answers he had better listen to me. Time and again at Question Time he has suggested that the British Government are in some way not supporting the Concorde project and that constituted a continual action designed to shake the confidence of the world's airlines in the likelihood of Concorde coming forward. I think he was trying to make political points and shaking confidence in the likelihood of its flying. [HON. MEMBERS: "Nonsense."] That is my interpretation of it.

I now come to the question—[Interruption.] I am answering the questions put to me. The hon. Member said I had not been forthcoming. I have said, whenever I have been asked about the project, that it was on time, and that I would provide the production finance. When, tonight, I bring forward the Money Resolution, the hon. Member asks me to be more forthcoming. I have been, to the extent of the Money Resolution.

It is infuriating to hon. Members opposite to find that their warnings and sniping have turned out to be wrong. Hon. Members have referred to the extent of the commitment and risk that the nation is taking on. Of course it is. The hon. Member for Gloucestershire, South (Mr. Corfield), who wound up for the Opposition, knows that where one has a project as big as this, with the technical difficulties inevitably associated with advanced technology, there is bound to be an element of risk. I have always made clear that one cannot, with a project of this kind, ever be absolutely certain and that is one reason why the Government have undertaken the responsibility for financing. There are all sorts of responsibility which may be affected by the complexities of production and the uncertainties of marketing which are connected with things over which the Government have no control which make this an uncertain project, and that is why the Government have to assume special responsibility for it.

My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, North-West (Mr. Ellis) said that some of the Press comment on the Concorde had not been helpful. There was a recent broadcast by the B.B.C., which was supposed to be funny but which was disgraceful and outrageous. It drew a comparison with the R 101, which other hon. Members as well as I will remember crashed in 1930 or 1931. We have not been helped by such comment.

This is a case where, if this country wishes to remain in advanced technology, it has to be prepared to support the engineers engaged in the production of this aircraft. Of course, in one sense, it is not private enterprise at all. As the hon. Member for Bristol, West said, the nation is taking the risk. This is not private enterprise but a national enterprise. We shall have, not only under the arrangements which the Chief Secretary negotiated but particularly in this case, full equality of information. I shall see that the books are open to us, because Government money is involved.

The hon. Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen) criticised the project, and much of his criticism was directed at his colleagues who signed the "unbreakable treaty" on Concorde. He asked, why Government loans? Because of the element of risk. Anyone who believes that advanced technology, whether the American space programme or anything else, can be entirely privately financed, needs to look at the realities again.

The hon. Gentleman also asked about interest rates. I have answered this before, but I will do so again. The answer is the going rate, which means that, in negotiations between the company and the banks, which are normally commercial negotiations, it would usually be Bank Rate plus a half per cent., but I cannot say what Bank Rate will be at the time that the loan is negotiated. Exchequer loans will be at the normal minimum rate under the National Loans Fund.

My. hon. Friend the Member for Bebington (Mr. Brooks) complained about the way that this has been handled, but he might have been more generous, because we have this statutory power without a special Bill under the Civil Aviation Act, 1949, under which I have already been financing production. Because it was so important, we wrote a special Clause into the Bill.

What are the opportunities for debate? First, there is this short debate on the Money Resolution; next the Committee stage; then Report stage; and then Third Reading on the whole Bill, although that might be a rather large instrument to use, and the fact that all the money will be provided by means of annual Votes by Parliament. The suggestion that this has been slipped in in some way is a misreading of the careful procedures involved.

The hon. Member for Woking asked why £100 million to £125 million. This is a common procedure, to come to the House and say that we believe that this is what will be necessary and to provide that, if it is, the Government will have to ask for an Order extending it. This safeguards Parliamentary procedures. Instead of saying £125 million immediately, we give the House a chance to consider the matter half way through. The £30 million for equipment is provided for under the 1949 Act.

The hon. Member for Woking also implied that it was the British Government who had insisted on this date being maintained which has led to the slippage. This is an alarming slippage, and could lead to a six months' delay—