Standing Order No. 40 (Committal of Bills)

Part of Procedure – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 6 December 1967.

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Photo of Mr Hugh Fraser Mr Hugh Fraser , Stafford and Stone 12:00, 6 December 1967

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that very valuable intervention.

What I have suggested is precisely what is done in many other countries where there is consultation. It would be valuable to have a Select Committee on Finance which could assist the Chancellor in the making of his Budget, like the Senate Committee assists in America in the formulation of financial policy.

But we have no such proposal here. There is just the same stale old thing, with one exception—the rights of back bench Members are being diminished. All we are getting is the same old-fashioned rigmarole and rattletrap with no new ideas from the right hon. Gentleman who considers himself to be a constitutional innovator. There is no innovation here other than the suppression of the freedom of speech of back bench hon. Members.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Boyd-Carpenter) dealt admirably with the suggestion that back benchers would have their rights protected by the Report stage. There is absolutely no chance of a back bench Member, on Report, having the same sort of right which he now has in a Committee stage on the Floor of the House.

Hon. Members opposite say that this does not matter, because much of what is said is tedious repetition. That may well be. The hon. Member for Conway was under a complete illusion about the point of the House of Commons, which is not to be efficient, not to be like a machine, not to be like a piece of steel made in Sheffield, or a huge press, or a giant engine; the whole point of the House of Commons is to be effective. Effectiveness rather than efficiency is what should balance our considerations. A serious constitutional issue is raised by the removal of the right of back benchers to intervene. As my right hon. Friend said, they will not have the same opportunities in a Standing Committee on the Budget.

Let us consider how that Committee will be appointed. One Scottish hon. Member has said that the appointment of Standing Committees was a mystery, and I agree with him. If we were to have such a Standing Committee on the Finance Bill, the economists in the House would be graded into Class 1 and Class 2. Those who were clever enough would be graded Class 1 and would be appointed to the Committee, while those who were not clever enough would be graded Class 2 and not appointed.

As a result, inarticulate Members who might know one important fact about the economies of their own constituencies—and such a knowledge is worth a thousand rigmarole speeches—would be inhibited from co-operating with the professional economists, and so on, who had been graded Class 1. In any event, grading economists of the House of Commons is a laughable concept in view of what the world thinks of House of Commons economist; it would be an impediment.

I speak from the back benches and I have no faith in the selection by either Front Bench of hon. Members to serve on a Standing Committee. Why should I have? The Government would appoint those they choose as Lobby fodder, those who would not open their mouths. The Opposition Front Bench would appoint the most articulate, the most difficult in opposition, the quick lawyers, with respect to my legal hon. Friends, those who could hold up debates and stop Bills from going forward. That is precisely what will happen. Such a Committee would have a very little value, not nearly as much value as the sort of debates which we have in Committee of the House. Hon. Members have mentioned the Selective Employment Tax of last year. How right were the comments of hon. Members on both sides of the House about S.E.T. If the Government had paid more attention to those comments, how much better off the country would be today!

In the House is a vast wealth of knowledge and, what is more, through contact with constituencies and through memberships, constituency Members keep in close touch with the finances and well-being and work of the people in the country. This proposal will break that link and do great damage to Parliament and to our financial future.