Orders of the Day — Family Allowances and National Insurance Bill

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 8 November 1967.

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Photo of Mr Charles Loughlin Mr Charles Loughlin , Gloucestershire West 12:00, 8 November 1967

The chief objection is that we estimate that it would be nine years before we could put it into effect, because of the administrative technicalities. This is a substantial objection.

The question of the offsets is strictly a Committee point. I assure the noble Lord that I am correct in stating that it is 6s. and not 3s. for a two-child family.

The increases we are giving in family allowances are part of the package deal. I have referred to the weekly increases. There will be additional benefits for larger families, because it is the Government's intention to ensure that fourth and subsequent children will get free school meals, a benefit worth 3s. 8d. a week spread over the whole year, although I would not suggest that every family of four will get the straight 3s. 8d., because there will be offsets in that some of the other children will pay increases. When it is worked out, there is an additional benefit in the package deal for fourth and subsequent children.

I come to the vexed question of selectivity. In the last debate on family poverty the hon. Lady the Member for Melton (Miss Pike) spoke from the Opposition Front Bench. I echo my right hon. Friend's expression of regret that the hon. Lady no longer speaks in these matters from that position, although this does not in any way detract from the welcome I have extended to the noble Lord. In that debate the hon. Lady referred to Professor Titmuss. Others—she could have referred also to the noble Lord, had the speech he made today been made prior to that debate—have tried to confuse the whole issue of means tests. The hon. Lady said that she was a North Country woman and called a spade a shovel.

I wish members of the Opposition would accept that advice, because the country has a right to know precisely how far the Tory Party is prepared to extend means testing of a direct kind. If the Tory Party suggests extending means testing to social security monetary payments, as the noble Lord rightly pointed out it is equally important to consider social services which are in kind. The means test cannot possibly be applied to social security monetary payments unless it is accepted, equally, that means testing will be applied to services supplied by the State.

The whole concept of means testing as now advanced by the Opposition is based upon the principle that in the affluent society the individual ought to make greater provision for his and his dependants' needs. I am surprised that the Tories have bothered to produce various odd terms to cover their intentions, because I well remember the publication which came from the Conservative Political Centre in February, 1961, which was a classic examination of the whole question of means testing, particularly the article by Godfrey Hodgson.

This is the dangerous situation in which hon. Members opposite will find themselves if they adhere to their present argument based upon the individual provision in a period of affluence. This is the logical conclusion that one reaches. Now that the hon. Gentleman is speaking under this umbrella term of means testing, it would be interesting if he could tell us whether in his examination of this problem he has reached the point to which Godfrey Hodgson was driven in logic, namely that there should be means testing and there should be an individual contribution for children in primary schools whereby parents would pay £5 a term in senior schools and £3 a term in primary schools. It would be interesting if hon. Members opposite would let the people know precisely what they intend to do. I know that the Tory Party want to apply means testing to the Health Service, to housing and social security. There is only one other social service left—education—and we ought to know whether they are prepared to extend means testing to that service.