Clause 1. — (FINANCES OF RAILWAYS BOARD, WATERWAYS BOARD AND LONDON BOARD, 1962 c. 46.)

Part of Orders of the Day — Transport Finances Bill – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 20 May 1966.

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Photo of Mr David Webster Mr David Webster , Weston-Super-Mare 12:00, 20 May 1966

I am full of thanks to the Parliamentary Secretary for a speech which is about the most illuminating one since the Oracle of Delphi went out of business. About the only thing that he said came at the end, when he referred to this as a stop-gap Measure. If £366 million is what he regards as a stop-gap, it is the biggest gap in any form of bikini that we have ever seen, politically or otherwise.

It is the job of the House of Commons, whether in Committee or in the full House, to scrutinise these things thoroughly. The Parliamentary Secretary misunderstood the problem when he said that we must vote the money at once but we must wait until later for the answers. We are willing to give the urgent money to deal with this year's deficit.

Two days ago and again today, the hon. Gentleman spoke about wasting the time of the House by over-using it. He certainly did not over-use it the night before last, which was why the House got into difficulties. Both in his tone today and in his earlier speech, he gave the impression that, if we resist the Bill, we will stop the railwaymen's pay after next month. That is not true. All along, we have said that we are willing to give the money to pay for the balance of the deficit which is not already provided for. But we should like to know how much that is. That is one matter at least on which we might have an answer.

We resist giving further money until we see the plans. It is an abuse of the House of Commons that it should be asked to rush through such a Measure. The Bill was presented to Parliament only recently. It was introduced for Second Reading on Wednesday, and I understand that it is to be rushed through another place next week. We have to vote this immense amount of money at great speed, but we are not allowed to see the slightest illustration of policy. We have never had the courtesy from the Minister of being allowed to see the Statement of Accounts of the Railways Board. Last year, the Accounts were published on 18th May. Why have this year's not been produced?

Our job is to protect the taxpayers' money. When we talked about that earlier on, I heard many jolly laughs on the other side. The taxpayers' money means nothing to hon. Members opposite. [Interruption.] Yes, it is still amusing to them, but it is something about which we have to be very careful, and theirs is an attitude which is causing resentment in the country. By sheer coincidence. I received a long letter on the subject this morning.

We also wish to know, and I hope that the Joint Parliamentary Secretary can tell us, the estimated deficit for the British Railways Board for next year. What is the Board's estimated deficit for 1968? We should like to know when the liner trains are to have free access. We should like to know the estimated expenditure on investment in the liner trains. I have attempted to find out what percentage of liner train capacity is the break-even point, but on every occasion we find resistance to giving information to the House.

Is it intended to spend a vast amount of money on the electrification of the line from Carlisle to Glasgow? How much will this cost? As has been said in an excellent article in the Financial Times, there cannot be very much more than marginal merit in this line because its use is not intense enough to make it a viable proposition. Because of the immense capital investment which would be required, the view of many experts is that this lightly used line would be better maintained for diesel operation rather than being electrified, and we should like to know what the taxpayers' money is being spent on.

What scrutiny is there of the efficiency of the British Railways Board? What scrutiny is there of the attempt to give satisfaction to the customer? When people talk about a service to the country, surely the way to serve the country is to give satisfaction to the customer?

One of the many letters which I received today tells of what happened when the summer timetable was due to operate in the Western Region on 18th April. At no station in Bristol, or in my constituency, was that timetable published or posted at the stations, with the result that customers did not know when trains were due to leave, and when they were due to arrive. This is the dismal type of complacency which we are asked to accept and to subsidise. This fearful complacency must stop at once. I am not against the railways, but I think that this complacency is doing the railway system a great deal of harm, and giving it a foul reputation in the country. I think that the people responsible for this state of affairs are letting the railways down.

What projection is there of freight and passenger revenues for last year? May we be given the figures of freight and passenger revenues for the year which has just ended? I am told that the Statement of Accounts for the year ended 31st January, 1965, has been delayed by printing problems, but surely the House could have been given some of these figures so that hon. Members would get some idea of the way things are going? The only answer which we get from the Joint Parliamentary Secretary when we ask these questions is, "What would you do, chum?" The hon. Gentleman is a member of the Government, and it is his job to have the cutting edge of dynamism about which the Prime Minister talks. It is his job to tell us what he is going to do.

The only way to change the hon. Gentleman's attitude is to resist this proposal and to scrutinise it very carefully. I suggest that we should provide the money for running the railways this year, but that we should find out what is likely to happen next year and consider the matter again, because far too much money is being voted away far too glibly and this is a most unsatisfactory state of affairs.

The other day my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr. Peter Walker) said that he thought it would be a good thing if we could pinpoint the deficit of the railway system by having a railway deficit stamp. I am reminded of the words of my favourite author, Lewis Carroll, in "The Hunting of the Snark" where he said: They sought it with thimbles, they sought it with care;They pursued it with forks and hope;They threatened its life with a railway-share,They charmed it with smiles and soap. I think that the Joint Parliamentary Secretary's life is being threatened by a railway deficit stamp, and that it would be better if we were to pinpoint where these deficits lie.

The hon. Gentleman talked about the sifting procedure being of little consequence in causing the railways to lose money, but on 4th January the Chairman of the Railways Board said: The position would have been improved if the Board had not had to continue to bear the cost of maintaining unremunerative services where closures had been refused and if there had not been an accumulation of delays, each comparatively small in itself, which have prevented the Railways from pressing on with the reshaping plan. There has been delay because of the new sifting procedures introduced by the Minister of Transport, before cases can be submitted to the Transport Users' Consultative Committee … He does not think that it is a matter of little significance that these delays have occurred and that the deficits have increased as a result.