Orders of the Day — Rural Water Supplies and Sewerage Bill

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 26 November 1965.

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Photo of Mr Alastair Harrison Mr Alastair Harrison , Maldon 12:00, 26 November 1965

I have been somewhat alarmed by the complacency of both Front Benches in to-days debate. The Opposition Front Bench was concerned with the achievements of the 13 years about which we hear so much—and I in no way want to belittle those achievements—while from the Government Front Bench we heard nothing but what is being done and how everything, the maximum possible, would be done. When these things are all said and done, we cannot get away from the fact that in many areas much remains to be done while in some areas virtually nothing has been done.

Consider an area like the South-East, with the tremendous influx of population. The amount of money spent so far on the important services which we are discussing has been increasing, but certainly not at a faster rate than the increase in population. It is interesting to look back to past debates in the House and to note that when the Rural Water Supplies and Sewerage Act, 1944, was introduced by the then Minister, Mr. Willink, a measure of what was hoped would be achieved by that Measure can be seen from the concluding words of the then Minister, who said: It will give handsome dividends in terms of human welfare, and we can properly claim, I think, that the enactment of the Bill will be the start of a great forward step in the health and happiness of our countryside and of our country people."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 18th May, 1944; Vol. 400, c. 372.] That may have been the case at that time, but I agree with my hon. Friends that the hopes expressed on that occasion have by no means been achieved universally and that benefit to the country people has not come about generally, because there is still a serious hard core of people who have neither water nor sewerage. As the years go by it becomes increasingly expensive to provide them with either, because primarily they live in the remoter areas.

May we be given information about the plans which are being made to deal with what one might call the small pockets of development in rural areas? With the influx of commuters into parishes which were previously able to look after the requirements of the population with cesspools, great difficulties must now be faced. On heavy land, because there is now piped water in many of these areas, there is often a total failure of the sewerage service because of the greatly increased amount of effluent and sewerage which seems to find its way out of the cesspools. As the populations of these areas increase, unless adequate sewerage services are provided the problem of emptying the cesspools becomes almost insoluble. Bearing these problems in mind, may I ask whether any work has been done on what one might call a prefabricated, small, compact sewerage system to deal with a dozen or so houses? In any case, will the Minister consider utilising grants to encourage this sort of technical improvement?

How many hon. Members are aware that we are currently voting about £1½million to be spent not far from this place, just a little way down Victoria Street? I say that because a percentage of the money made available by Measures of this sort go to the consulting engineers who draw up these schemes. If the Minister is as keen on modernisation as one would believe, there is a strong case for looking at the way in which the fees paid to the various consulting firms and other professional bodies with which local authorities must deal are calculated. At present they are calculated on a percentage of the costs of the schemes. In other words, the more expensive the scheme the bigger the fee.

Hon. Members who have read the model clauses and model forms of agreement will have seen that every possible contingency is covered. Even if the engineers make a mistake they receive an extra percentage. To quote a hypothetical case, if in a water scheme a bore hole is drilled below the floodline of a river and it is realised before the work is completed, and a further bore hole must be drilled above the floodline, the additional fees required for drawing up the plan to do this extra work are covered tinder the model terms of agreement and an extra 5 per cent. to 6 per cent. is added to the consulting engineer's fees.

To give another example, not a completely hypothetical one, concerning a public works scheme or building initially estimated to cost about £4 million. If eventually it is discovered that, because of a mistake, the price will escalate to, say, £8 million, the consulting engineers take their fees based on the top figure. If ever something should be referred to to the First Secretary's Prices and Incomes Board it is the way in which fees are calculated by professional bodies employed by local authorities in receipt of Government grants under this type of Bill. I hope that there will be some for of investigation. I will not bore the House with the details of how these fees are calculated, but no doubt the Parliamentary Secretary is familiar with them. They cannot be touched by the Monopolies Commission, because professional fees are excluded, but there is a strong case, when so much money is being made available from Government funds for public works, for the way in which these fees are calculated to be carefully considered.

Having said that, I must admit that I welcome the Bill. I hope that it will enable local authorities in rural areas to fulfil their obligations—and they have sweeping obligations—to provide both water and sewerage in those areas where they are not now provided, in the more remote villages and especially in areas where development is going on and where there are small pockets of development which are causing great problems which are a definite threat to public health in the countryside.