New Clause. — (Release on Licence of Those Sentenced for Murder.)

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 25 June 1965.

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Photo of Mr Charles Fletcher-Cooke Mr Charles Fletcher-Cooke , Darwen 12:00, 25 June 1965

The trouble with that argument is that it proves too much. It proves that one should give a life or an indeterminate sentence for all serious crimes of violence whether they result in death or not. It is the argument for the indeterminate sentence so ably advanced by the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Hooson), but it is one that is not before us now, nor is it likely to be before us for a very long time. We have to deal with the structure of sentencing by the criminal courts as it is today, and as it is likely to be for many years ahead. I say that this Amendment fits into that pattern far more logically—and, I think, far more humanely—than an attempt to start indeterminate sentencing now.

It is right that a judge should give a life sentence if he thought that there was any danger of the man committing a second murder. I have no doubt that he would do so, and that public opinion would demand it. Judges are sensitive to public opinion in these matters, but public opinion works both ways. One of the great reasons advanced by the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne over the years for promoting his Bill is that public opinion would not stand the sight of the black-capped judge condemning to death a woman whom everyone knew would be reprieved. Why should public opinion now stand to see a man or a woman condemned to a sentence of life imprisonment that the public know perfectly well he or she will not serve?

If the hon. Gentleman asks, "Why did you not say that in 1957?" the answer is that we were wrong then and are right now, and why can we not have the manhood to admit it? I am quite sure that in the present structure of sentencing this Amendment is correct. I remember from my own experience many occasions on which it was quite clear that a sentence of one or two years would have been imposed for some actions which were charged as murders.

I know perfectly well that it is virtually impossible for the Home Secretary to let people out under four or five years at the minimum, because there are political consequences in exercising the power of mercy which would not arise with a judge, and which would not put him under any pressure. There are men and women in prison today who, if this discretionary sentencing power had been with the courts, would not be in prison now, because they would have had a sentence of one, two or three years.

As a result of either a capital sentence in the old days which has been commuted by the prerogative of mercy or as a result of the 1957 Act, these wretched men and women have to stay in prison far longer than I believe they should. For that reason, I think that of all the debates I have listened to on the Bill—I have listened to a great many, although I have not taken part in them—I feel strongest about this, because I am sure that this proposal is on the side of humanity and public opinion and that without it the Bill will be a bigger blot than it is already.