Control of Office and Industrial Development Bill

Part of Ballot for Notices of Motions – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 14 April 1965.

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Photo of Mr George Darling Mr George Darling , Sheffield, Hillsborough 12:00, 14 April 1965

We had a very full discussion of these Amendments in Committee and it could be said that we covered every point made by the hon. Member for Southend, West (Mr. Channon) in moving it again. But I thank him for giving us notice of his intention to vote against the Third Reading, which has enlightened us about the recent activities of the Opposition Whips.

We cannot accept Amendment No. 12, largely because of the rigid time factor laid down. The hon. Member asked how we are dealing with the backlog of applications. An announcement has been made, in reply to a Question, that applications have been asked for from 3rd April. They are coming in, and being examined, but there are practical limits to our ability to come to decisions on all applications within two months. This is a new operation which puts new demands on the staff resources available in the Board of Trade, but there are two other factors apart from that. We are dependent on the response which individual firms make in reply to our request for information. We said in Committee that our experience of the I.D.C. control is that the first application often raises the need for additional information which the applicant is not always quick to supply.

I have been dealing with two I.D.C. applications today. In these instances the delays have been entirely due to the fact that the firms concerned did not provide the proper information in the first place. In both cases Board of Trade officials went to the help of the applicants so that the information could be prepared. These applications were for B.O.T.A.C. help in the development districts—loans, grants and so on. This is a service which the Board of Trade should provide and I am sure that all hon. Members are pleased that we do provide it.

If we laid down a time limit for all applications it would be difficult for the staff of the Board of Trade to give this sort of help in cases where help should be given. Another point to remember, when considering a time limit, is that for some of the major projects for comprehensive redevelopment schemes—where the plans may not be fully drawn up to begin with and about which the applicants themselves may ask for, and be glad to have, discussions with Board of Trade officials rather than merely put in a formal application—it would be extremely difficult to get the thing finished within two months.

We believe that the flexible control that has operated for I.D.Cs.—the same kind of flexible and helpful control which we want for office developing permits—would break down if the rigid form of control suggested were applied.

I do not know how much importance should be attached to a psychological factor involved here, but it should certainly be taken into account. If we laid down a time limit and pressure was placed on the Board of Trade to deal with the big applications within two months, there might be a tendency to hold up the smaller applications which should actually be dealt with quickly. Although these are the sort of applications which should be dealt with quickly under the I.D.C. procedure, they might be held up if a two months' limit applied.

I do not want to stress this psychological approach among Board of Trade officials, but I mention it because we want this procedure to be flexible. We want to deal with all applications as quickly as possible. Because in exceptional cases, where help must be given at the beginning because the information we want has not been submitted, and because some major comprehensive projects could probably not be dealt with within two months, we feel that the time limit suggested is too rigid.

Amendment No. 13 would put a statutory obligation on the Board of Trade to give a decision on an application within two months of the receipt of the application. The pressure which there would be on the Board of Trade to reach hasty decisions if a time limit were imposed would be intense, and large schemes which might have received permits had the cases been examined thoroughly would perhaps be in great danger of being turned down.

We consider that there would be no reason, in view of the way in which the Amendment is framed, for the applicant himself to allow the Board of Trade an extension of time to consider the application, for it is provided in the Amendment that the applicant could gain a permit by refusing to let the Board of Trade have extra time beyond the two months.

The hon. Gentleman called in aid, as did his hon. Friend the Member for Crosby (Mr. Graham Page) previously, the town planning procedure. As I suggested, in a rather Machiavellian way, one should consider the matter in reverse of what is provided in the Bill. The hon. Member for Crosby said that they did this because there is an appeal procedure in regard to planning, but none in the Bill. It is true that there is no formal procedure in the Bill for appeal, but there is a very effective appeal procedure through Members of Parliament up to the Minister. I must point out, as I did in the Standing Committee, that the time limit which applies to the local planning authority does not apply to the Minister. Therefore, to suggest that the thing has been granted if an application is not deal with within two months is something which, even with the well-deployed argument of the hon. Member for Crosby, we cannot accept, because we do not think that the two operations are in any way analogous.

The effect of Amendment No. 14 would be that if an application were turned down the Board of Trade would have to give full reasons for doing so. We know from experience of the industrial development certificate procedure that a decision can be influenced, and frequently is influenced, by the knowledge that other applications in the same area are under consideration. That might be a factor in the decision, but the Board of Trade could not disclose that other applications were being considered, and their nature. The Amendment says that "full reasons" must be given. It would be impossible for us to give the full reasons without breaking the confidence we must have in discussions of I.D.Cs.

The hon. Member for Southend, West said that he did not expect the Board of Trade to be unreasonable and, of course, it would not be unreasonable. The whole experience of the Board of Trade over the last 20 years with regard to control of industrial development has been to be reasonable, and I think that we should leave the rules of operation much as they are under the I.D.C. policy, and not attach the controls and limitations that are sought, because we propose to operate office control in exactly the same reasonable way as that in which the I.D.C. control has been operated.

In operating the I.D.C. control, we are under no statutory obligation to explain our decisions and there is no formal procedure, but it works extremely well, because there must be frank discussion to get the flexible control we want. In practice, our negotiations with applicants make the Board of Trade's views on the matter and its decisions perfectly clear.

As I said before, where an I.D.C. is refused the applicant can always raise the matter again with higher officials in the Board and with Ministers at the Board of Trade through his Member of Parliament. We think that the informality of the I.D.C. system has worked well, and that to change it now would do far more harm than good. I do not think that anybody would benefit at all by the rigid limits and rules and considerations and conditions and qualifications which hon. Members opposite seek now to impose.

I therefore ask the House to reject the Amendment.