Part of Ballot for Notices of Motions – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 14 April 1965.
These two Amendments may appear at first sight and when moved, I thought humbly, by my hon. Friend the Member for the City of Chester (Mr. Temple)—and that is the sort of definition I would give to the word "humbly" which has been used in another connotation in this debate—not to have quite as much importance as some of the other Amendments we have been dealing with throughout the day. But I think there is no doubt in anybody's mind that the aspects of the Bill as it affects local authorities are particularly matters which concern the efficiency of the local authorities.
I would answer directly the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Mr. Ogden) by saying that we on this side of the House believe that the best people to decide about local problems are the local people, and this I have reiterated more than once during the Committee stage. We believe also that where efficiency is concerned, the local people and the local authority are better judges of this than the Ministry, and it is specifically at this point where we want to hold exactly to the principles which we present at any time when we are concerned with local government. We are being quite consistent in holding to our general views.
If I may also answer the other question of the hon. Member about the Association of Municipal Corporations, I believe that it is quite normal practice, when matters concerning boroughs and the Association as such come up, that the Association gets in touch with its vice-presidents, and of course my hon. Friend the Member for the City of Chester is a vice-president. This would probably explain the slight difficulty in the mind of the hon. Member for West Derby. I am sure that neither he nor my hon. Friend the Member for the City of Chester would suggest that the A.M.C. is political about this. It is only trying to ensure that the views of local authorities are expressed in this House.
Turning to the two Amendments, I find that the first of them has an important aspect in that specifically we are trying to ensure that we do not embarrass the Government by causing one Minister to have to override a decision already made by another Minister. That is all that the Amendment does.
11.15 p.m.
When the Ministry of Housing and Local Government has given permission—in other words, has given loan consent—it seems nonsense to us on this side that another part of the Government should say, "Sorry, old boy, we do not quite agree with your decision. We will override it." That is not the sort of co-operation which we heard stated blandly from both the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government and the Minister of State when they said that they were in perfect co-ordination during the Committee stage. We thought, therefore, that the Amendment would get the Government out of a difficulty and we were delighted to do that.
It has been suggested that Amendment No. 15 is, perhaps, slightly better than No. 11. We notice that the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Crosby (Mr. Graham Page) appears to No. 15 and not No. 11. I do not know whether that is fortuitous, but as so many compliments have been paid to my hon. Friend's drafting, there is something in that.
Amendment No. 15 sets out quite clearly that for the purpose of administration within its own area, a local authority should be able to have the powers to build. I found very strange the example used by the Joint Parliamentary Secretary in saying why this power should not be given.
If, when we say that applications for certain O.D.Ps. were being refused, we wandered through a town and saw a new hall being built, we would consider this unreasonable. I am not under the impression that a new hall is covered by the Bill. May we know, before we leave the Amendment, whether that is so? As I read the definitions in Clause 12(5), I do not think that a hall is included. If a local authority wished to build only a hall for itself without any offices, I do not think that it would have to get Government permission.