Murder (Abolition of Death Penalty) Bill (Committee Stage)

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 18 March 1965.

Alert me about debates like this

Photo of Mr Herbert Bowden Mr Herbert Bowden , Leicester South West 12:00, 18 March 1965

I was saying that this debate has been pitched rather high. Charges and words have been thrown about which, I am sure, on reflection in calmer moments, hon. Members opposite will regret. My right hon. Friend the Chief Whip and myself have been accused of breach of faith. We have been accused of being slick and of petulance and arrogance—all these things. The hon. Member for Carlton (Sir K. Pickthorn) was the only Member on the apposite side of the House who has had a kind word to say about me.

I would remind the House that it does not really matter. After all, this is the House of Commons, and we all understand each other. What is said out of kindness, or of a derogatory character, does not matter very much. I am not in the least concerned about what Members say about me personally in the House, and I am concerned outside only if they are worth suing. In defence of my right hon. Friend the Chief Whip and myself, it might interest hon. Gentlemen opposite to know that we are referred to as "Merry" and "Bright" on this side of the House. I would not like to have to differentiate.

The right hon. Member for Rushcliffe (Sir M. Redmayne) dealt with one or two procedural points which I should like to take up. 1 have great respect for the right hon. Gentleman's knowledge in this field. I am sure that no one has a greater knowledge of procedure than he has, but one or two of the things that he said were somewhat "off beam".

First, he said that in his view this was a complete break with precedent in that the House of Commons was considering a new procedure introduced by the Government which had not previously at least been considered by the Select Committee on Procedure. The right hon. Gentleman will recall that there are about 117 Standing Orders, that 89 of them have been changed in some way or other since the war, and that most of them have been changed without any reference whatsoever to the Select Committee on Procedure.

The right hon. Gentleman asked what action we on this side felt we could take about referring this particular matter to the Select Committee on Procedure. I think that it was his view that it ought to have gone there before we brought it here today as a Motion. I do not think that this is the point at all. This is a very simple, narrow, point. This is a point which deals with one, simple, plain issue, and it has been built up to mean all sorts of things.

It was the right hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) who said that "this specific matter has not been referred to the Select Committee". Of course it has not. Nor can we refer many others. I might be asked what examples there are of occasions on which the House has approved matters of procedure and adopted new procedures which have never been before a Select Committee on Procedure. There are many examples.

Older Members will recall that in the days of the "Boothby harriers" we used to be kept up all night discussing Prayers. The Prayer procedure was altered so that we no longer discussed them beyond half-past eleven. I am not certain on this point, but I have done some research, and I think that it was the Government of that side who ended that procedure and brought the discussion on Prayers to an end at half-past eleven without any reference to the Select Committee on Procedure. I am not disputing this. This is the sort of thing that should be done.