Murder (Abolition of Death Penalty) Bill (Committee Stage)

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 18 March 1965.

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Photo of Mr Michael Foot Mr Michael Foot , Ebbw Vale 12:00, 18 March 1965

I want to apply myself directly to the arguments advanced by the right hon. Member for Rushcliffe (Sir M. Redmayne) in his speech from the Opposition Front Bench at the beginning of the debate. First, I want to reply to what I suppose are the two main arguments presented by the right hon. Member for Ashford (Mr. Deedes). He said that there was something impertinent or intolerant about the way the Government have behaved in this matter. I think he said that partly because of the way the Government had behaved on the original Motion as to where the Bill should be committed and partly because of their subsequent action.

Taking, first, the question of how the Government behaved immediately after the Bill was accorded a Second Reading, I must say that I do not think that the Opposition have presented a very powerful argument. They have claimed—the right hon. Gentleman himself claimed—that this was indisputably a constitutional Bill. Herbert Morrison's hook was quoted to substantiate the case that constitutional Bills should nearly always be taken on the Floor of the House. Anyone who has been in the House for any length of time knows that there has always been discussion, often between Opposition and Governments, as to what constitutes constitutional Bills. I have heard the late Herbert Morrison himself arguing on that point. Therefore, it is no good right hon. Members opposite being so dogmatic on the subject and saying that, because they say so, because they put their imprimatur upon the Bill as a constitutional Bill, therefore it is one.

One of the examples which slipped out in the course of the debates illustrates my point very well, because the right hon. Gentleman told us that in the last Session when the Government of the day introduced the Commonwealth Immigrants Bill they sought to have that Bill dealt with by a Standing Committee but were thwarted by the House of Commons, which did not agree with them. As between the Commonwealth Immigrants Bill, which deprived Commonwealth citizens of rights which they have held ever since there has been a British Commonwealth, and the Bill which is under discussion now, I should have thought that the Commonwealth Immigrants Bill was incomparably more certainly a constitutional Bill than is this Bill.

After all, important though this Bill is—I do not diminish its importance; my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Sydney Silverman) has every right, more perhaps than many hon. Members, to stress its importance—it is also the fact that the consequences of the Bill for large numbers of people are not so great as were the consequences of the Commonwealth Immigrants Bill. I know that hon. Members have different views on the matter. There are hon. Members opposite, who are bitterly opposed to the Bill anyhow, who say very strongly that in their view this is a constitutional Bill.

My opinion and, I am glad to say, the opinion of many of us who were in the House of Commons at the time was that the Commonwealth Immigrants Bill was a constitutional Bill. We have been told by the spokesman for the Opposition today that, in his opinion, the Commonwealth Immigrants Bill was not a constitutional Bill. I say that to illustrate the fact that it is not easy for anybody to determine what are constitutional Bills and what are not. There is a powerful argument at least for saying that a Bill which is to decide that two or three people who would be hanged if the Bill were not passed will not be hanged is not a great constitutional Bill, important though the Bill may be. That is my answer to the right hon. Gentleman.

The right hon. Member for Ashford got himself into great difficulty when he was trying to describe, in answer to an intervention, what other course he would recommend. It must be remembered that the accusation of the right hon. Gentleman against the Government was that they have acted in an intolerant manner. He argued that the intolerance of the Government is such that they are inviting the House of Commons to agree that the proposition passed by the House on Friday, 5th March, should be carried out. That is the measure of their intolerance.

There have been much more intolerant Leaders of the House in days gone by. I am not quite sure whether the right hon. Member for Ashford was in the House during the war. In the latter years of the war there was a vote against the Coalition Government which Sir Winston Churchill, the then Prime Minister, found awkward and irritating. The remedy which was adopted by the Government at that time was not to tell the House, "We will allow this Measure to go through" or "We will allow further time for its discussion". The attitude of the Government of the day was to say, "We require that the House of Commons shall turn a somersault and that many of those who voted for the original proposition should go into the Lobbies and vote against".