Murder (Abolition of Death Penalty) Bill (Committee Stage)

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 18 March 1965.

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Photo of Mr William Deedes Mr William Deedes , Ashford 12:00, 18 March 1965

I shall be touching on some of the things which were said by the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Mr. Blackburn) but first I must take him to task for the suggestion that some hon. Members on this side of the House who took part in the debate on 5th March were particularly concerned to disrupt the Government programme. That is simply not true. I do not think that the hon. Member was present during the debate, but if he rereads some of the remarks which were made on that occasion—I do not think that the Leader of the House will dispute this—he will see that some of us had quite different motives in mind from that. As for the hon. Member's wider observations about the proper use of the Floor of the House, that is more a matter for the Leader of the House than for me and I will leave others to answer the hon. Gentleman. When the Select Committee reports on the subject, we shall look forward to hearing more from the hon. Gentleman.

This Motion and the need for it is one more chapter in the most unhappy history of the Government's handling of this Bill. It is a history of miscalculation, and that is putting it very moderately. Having started on the wrong road, as I believe they did from the night of the Second Reading of the Bill, the Government have been consistently taking wrong turnings, and getting no nearer to the ultimate destination of the Bill. As a result of the decision we shall take finally tonight, the Bill is back where it was on the night of 21st December. The Leader of the House has acted in a manner in which, on occasions, we all act when travelling along a road, when we ask the way and, having been clearly informed that we should go back a mile or two and then turn right, we consider that the better way is to go on and take as many turnings as we can find in the belief that ultimately we shall get back on the right road. That never happens. The positive refusal to take the course which some of us recommended from the start has been largely responsible for the difficulties which the Leader of the House referred to today.

I am not affected by the decision to have morning sittings in this Chamber on Wednesdays. For me, with my hon. Friends and hon. Members opposite who are members of the Standing Committee, this decision will mean, in effect, that we shall conduct our business in this Chamber instead of in a Committee Room on the Committee corridor between 10.30 a.m. and 1 o'clock on Wednesdays. It will make no difference in terms of time or conditions. I make no complaint, but I would point out to those hon. Members who have been taking part in the Standing Committee discussions that one effect of this decision will be to nullify five full days and 121 hours of work in the Standing Committee, and that we shall have to start again from the beginning.

The people who will be affected by this decision will be the Ministers. I cannot believe that, in resorting to what I think some hon. Members opposite regard as a clever manoeuvre, the consequences have been sufficiently considered in their effect on Departmental Ministers. It is an illusion to think that this will hurt hon. Members on this side of the House more than the Ministers. Nothing could be further from the truth. It may well aggravate some of my hon. and right hon. Friends, but it will positively embarrass a great number of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen on the Government Front Bench. Every hon. Member knows that a large number of Ministers are called on to work throughout Wednesday mornings at some distance from this House and, however the Divisions may be contrived during the Committee stage discussions, those Ministers will have to be on call. Anyone who knows the routine of a Ministry knows that it will seriously disrupt a great deal of routine business.

It is fair that I should add now, in this context, that a number of hon. Members on this side of the House support the Bill and abolition and, frankly, it will not be so easy for right hon. Gentlemen opposite to arrange pairs and to absent themselves on official duties. I hope that we shall not be told later, if difficulties do arise for Ministers, that hon. Members on this side of the House are deliberately trying to make life difficult for them. There are some circumstances here which I hope will be noted now and not later.