Murder (Abolition of Death Penalty) Bill (Committee Stage)

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 18 March 1965.

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Photo of Mr Martin Redmayne Mr Martin Redmayne , Rushcliffe 12:00, 18 March 1965

Hon. Gentlemen always make a great deal of that point, but it was not so arduous, although that happened on occasion and might happen again.

One last point—and these are all perfectly good and practical points: how many hon. Members make a point of having visiting parties here on Wednesdays because that is the best day to do so? It is all very well for hon. Gentlemen opposite to brush these points aside, but, none the less, for many hon. Members Wednesday is the best day for that. That particular part of the ordinary pattern of the House, too, is to be interfered with. If some of these points seem small in themselves, none the less some are of considerable importance. And we have to put up with this simply because Her Majesty's Government cannot face the inevitable and give time, at a proper and acceptable time.

After all, other Governments have faced this situation. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he recollects that he forced us, against our will, to take the Commonwealth Immigrants Bill on the Floor of the House—and much good it did him! But we got the programme for the Session, as we do in every Session despite accidents which intervene; and, despite the right hon. Gentleman's slighting remark about the last Session of Parliament, the legislation that went through in that Session was very nearly a record. and in the year before the amount was a record. We always get it.

How can the Government claim to be short of time? If they are, then is it anyone's fault but their own? All that this Parliament has had to consider has been a "pudding" of legislation left over from the pipeline of the previous Administration— with an exception. Why, therefore, should Parliament now be deprived of time which it has willed because the Government apparently cannot reach agreement behind the scenes on policy on their major Bills? It is really most extraordinary that Parliament is five months gone and we have hardly had a major Bill yet. What a way to run a Session! Sometimes our friends in the country complain that our opposition lack punch, but so far we have had very little but pudding to punch. I must tell the right hon. Gentleman quite seriously that if the Government are late with their Bills it is their worry. In the meantime, the House wants to take this Bill in Committee on the Floor, in the proper hours, and the Government should pay heed to the House.

I wish now to deal with the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman the Lord President of the Council when he referred to the deep suspicions excited by this Motion. Of course, I accept that his intention that only the Committee stage should be taken in the mornings. Indeed, that is clear from the preamble of the Motion, but if that is clear why is the Motion worded, in paragraph 2, in such a peculiar way, and why are we given the alternatives, whether Mr. Speaker should be in the Chair or if the House be in Committee? And in lines 11 and 12 it is stated that provided that if proceedings under Standing Order No. 31 (Closure of debate) be in progress at that hour Mr. Speaker shall not interrupt the Business, or, if the House be in Committee, the Chairman shall not leave the Chair, We are told that the House will be in Committee, and I accept the right hon. Gentleman's word on that, but if the House is in Committee the Chairman is fully competent to meet both provisions. Therefore, why is it necessary to include in the Motion the proposition that the House may not be in Committee? I would like to know the truth of this matter. Was it the Government's original intention that all stages of the Bill be taken in the mornings, or were they preparing a Motion which would come in handy on another occasion? Or is it just sloppy drafting and sloppy amendment?

It would be more respectful to the House if Motions put before the House were more precise in their intention. I am poacher-turned-gamekeeper and I know how such procedural Motions are drafted and the care and expertise with which words are chosen to give precisely the effect that the Government wish to achieve. Therefore, 1 believe that certain instructions were given to the draftsmen to achieve one objective and that they were not told that the Government had changed their mind, nor were they asked to approve amendments which were made.

There is another point on this Motion which is of some importance. There may be a trap for the unwary in line 10, which says: further consideration of the Business shall be deferred until such day as the Member in charge of the Bill shall appoint. This is a common phrase in our procedure and means commonly that any Minister or Whip on the Front Bench may say that business shall be deferred "until tomorrow, Sir," or "This day, Sir," or "Monday next," or, on very good occasions, perhaps, "until 20th October." But here we are in different circumstances. This Bill, though taken in Government time—or time at least produced by the Government from thin air like a conjuror producing an egg—and conjurors can frequently produce more than one egg, once they have learned the facility—still masquerades as a Private Member's Bill and the Government are not in charge except, as the Lord President of the Council explains, when it suits them.

The hon. Member in charge of the Bill will be the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne. He—if he will forgive me for saying so—is a downy bind; an old hand in Parliament. He is also a little short in Parliamentary temper. If he became dissatisfied with progress, being authorised by this Motion to name the day might not he fail to say, dutifully, "Wednesday next", and name Monday, or Tuesday, or Thursday?

I know that the Lord President of the Council will say that the Government would not place the Bill on the Order Paper until the following Wednesday, and that all would be well, but would the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne be satisfied? He could claim with justice that the powers given to him in paragraph (2) are every bit as strong as the intention to take the Bill on Wednesday, as is expressed in the preamble. If I know the hon. Member he would make that claim, and if I know the Government they might easily accept it.