Murder (Abolition of Death Penalty) Bill (Committee Stage)

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 18 March 1965.

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Photo of Mr Herbert Bowden Mr Herbert Bowden , Leicester South West 12:00, 18 March 1965

—the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, West (Mr. Hendry) introduced a Private Member's Motion to bring the Bill from Committee upstairs to the Floor of the House. I said when we discussed that Motion that there was nothing improper about this, although it was certainly unusual. There cannot be many occasions when Private Members' Motions have been used for this sort of purpose.

After five hours' debate and one or two long speeches with a great deal of detail, the Motion was carried. Having reread the debate—and I sat here through the whole of it—I think that the only argument carrying any weight in favour of bringing the Bill to the House is that repeated on a number of occasions by the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, West himself and the right hon. and learned Member for Epsom—that on a Bill of this sort there should be an opportunity for more hon. Members to take part in the Committee stage. This seems to be the only valid argument put forward during the whole of that day. If I may say so with respect to the Chair, we seem to have got out of order on many occasions and were debating the content of the Bill.

The fact that certain Members are excluded from debating a Bill in Committee happens with every Bill which goes upstairs to Standing Committee, and it could be an argument that no Bill should ever go upstairs but that they should all be taken on the Floor of the House. This is an argument which anyone who has had anything to do with government on either side of the House knows is completely impossible because no Government could get their business through.

We were told by hon. Members who spoke that Members were muzzled if the Bill remained upstairs. I cannot see the validity of that argument. The hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, West said that the fresh air of democracy could be brought into the matter,"— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th March, 1965; Vol. 707, c. 1722.] only if it were taken on the Floor of the House. It is a strange doctrine, particularly coming from the former Chief Whip, that the Standing Committee procedure of Parliament is undemocratic. We have to accept and appreciate that much of our procedure will have to undergo some change at least and many things will have to be discussed in Committees upstairs.

The right hon. and learned Member for Epsom said that the sending of this Bill upstairs to Committee was a "shabby political manoeuvre" on the part of the Government. Apparently, his argument was that the Government sent the Bill upstairs with the object of hiding it. If the Government wished to hide it, we need not have given any time whatever for it. Not only did we provide time for the Second Reading, but we are providing time on the Floor of the House for the Report stage, however long that may take—and I hope that it will not be too long—and for the Third Reading. Therefore, the argument that we sent it upstairs simply with the object of hiding it is absolute nonsense, and I am surprised that hon. and learned Gentlemen of the calibre of the right hon. And learned Member for Epsom used such an argument.

After the decision on 5th March, the Government could have taken a number of courses. First of all, we could have dropped the Bill altogether [Holy. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear".] Now we see the real objective. I thought that this was the case the whole way through. The object of the exercise of 5th March was not to bring the Bill to the Floor of the House, but to destroy it once and for all. But the House may do well to remember that the abolitionists are not all on one side. The Second Reading of the Bill was carried by a very large majority. It is clear from what happened on 5th March and the cheers which we have just heard that the object of some right hon. and hon. Members was to kill the Bill rather than to deal with it at all.

As I say, we could have dropped the Bill. The Government decided not to do so. We could, by decision of the House, which we might have got, despite a small majority, have put it back in Standing Committee at the point where it left off. But the view of my right hon. Friends and myself was that the House had taken a decision, and that was to bring it to the Floor of the House. The question then arose of how we should do this. In view of the Parliamentary time-table, and of the loss of three or four days which the Bill may take in Committee on the Floor of the House, the only possibility was to adopt the procedure which we are proposing in this Motion of bringing it to the Floor of the House on the same day and at the same times as it would have been taken upstairs in Committee.

I should like, as an aside, as it were, to remind the House of certain facts which every Government face. Under our present procedures, there are 50 to 60 days only of legislative time for any Government in a full Parliamentary Session. The Opposition have 32, and no one would wish to alter that. Therefore, to take three or four days out of Government time on the Floor of the House becomes a possible course. I do not dispute that there may be occasions in the dying months of a Government—we had this last year—when they are anxious to play out time and to prevent the sword from falling upon their head. Then they may be prepared to give time for debates applications for which they would normally have resisted had they been made in earlier Sessions.

That is not the position with this Government now, nor is it likely to be within the next five years, because we have a large enough legislative programme to last us for five years. Therefore, we must resist, and continue to resist, attempts of this sort to bring to the Floor of the House the Committee stages of Bills which can be taken upstairs.

The only way that we could honour our promise in the Gracious Speech, of providing time and, at the same time, noting the decision of the House on 5th March was to introduce the Motion to which I am speaking. Despite the fears which, I understand, are abroad, the Motion is straightforward. There is nothing sinister about it. It has no ulterior motive whatsoever. It is a proposal to bring the Murder (Abolition of Capital Punishment) Bill to the Floor of the House for the Committee stage, and the Committee stage only, and on the same day of the week and at the same time as it would have been taken in Committee upstairs.

It is not the first time that sittings have taken place in the morning, and I doubt whether it will be the last. This has happened before, and it may happen again. I would remind the House that in a very few weeks I, or someone from this Box, will be moving a Motion that the House will sit at eleven o'clock and take Questions until twelve o'clock and continue whatever the business may be until five o'clock that day purely for the convenience of Members on the day before we rise for the Easter Recess. There is nothing unusual in Motions to the effect that we adjust the times of sittings of the House to conform with the views and wishes of Members.

Therefore, this Motion is—and I repeat this—for this purpose and this purpose only and is without prejudice to any recommendations, if there are any recommendations, which may be made to the Select Committee on Procedure.