Vote a. Number of Land Forces

Part of Defence (Army) Estimates, 1965–66 – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 8 March 1965.

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Photo of Mr Norman Dodds Mr Norman Dodds , Erith and Crayford 12:00, 8 March 1965

I have quite a long connection with the House, but this is the first time that I have dared to speak on the Army Estimates. I was warned by the hon. Member for Beckenham (Mr. Goodhart) when he opened for the Opposition and referred to suggestions of a review of the Territorial Army; my impression was that he felt that, while there may be some room for review, heaven help anybody who seeks to make any change in the Territorial Army. Since then, however, I have been encouraged to make the remarks which I wish to make by the speech of the hon. Member for Ayr (Mr. Younger) and by the speech of the hon. Member for Leominster (Mr. Clive Bossom), both of whom admitted that there was something not right with the Territorial Army.

I was a little concerned when I heard the hon. Member for Ayr say that he had had 15 years in the Territorial Army. He told us a lot which I did not know. I followed him with great interest. Instead of it being an Army of old soldiers, he told us, there were many under 30 years of age, and many of them had never seen a weapon or been to war. He pointed out that the Army was not as good as it might be because of the limited number of days for training. He suggested four more days, and then said, "Let us see what they can do with the best military weapons".

That is a pretty tall order, and if that is his suggestion as to what is wrong with the Territorial Army and as to how it could be put right, I must tell him that there are many other things that are wrong and that much more will be needed to put them right. He may, of course, be right, and I am sure that, in view of his long experience, much attention will be paid to his proposition, although it does not seem a good proposition to me.

He agreed with his hon. Friend the Member for Leominster that much enthusiasm was being lost, and said that if it were proposed that the Territorial Army should be connected with Civil Defence many would leave the Territorial Army. I know many men in the Territorial Army—some of the finest men I have ever met; they are patriotic, not for what they can get out of it, but for what they can put into it. I imagine that they may feel that way if some decision is not made quickly which will encourage them and make them feel that what they are doing in the Territorial Army is for Britain in this modern age and is commensurate with the brains and with the energy they put into it.

I have in mind the comment of the hon. Member for Beckenham that reviews generally go on and on and on. A warning was given to my hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes), a regular who gets up from our benches during these and other Service debates. I subscribe to that. There is talk of changes in the rôle of the Territorial Army, and it should be considered as a matter of urgency that some decision is reached which will give these men the pride which they have always had in serving the nation and the people in this way.

I am concerned about the Territorial Army, if my recent experiences with the Ministry of Defence and the Territorial Association in the County of Kent are at all typical. I am informed that the Territorial Army has from the Regular Army 12 major-generals, 40 brigadiers, and 80 lieutenant-colonels. I should like to know whether they are being usefully employed. What I want to raise is largely in the administrative hands of two brigadiers at Maidstone, which is the head of the Kent County Territorial Association. If these are typical of other county associations, I am concerned whether the Territorial Army is in the right sort of hands. I think that any review would include this aspect.

Questions on this subject have been put on the Floor of the House in recent weeks. I propose to deal with two points. The first is on the limited basis which applies solely to the County of Kent Territorial Association and their policy of sub-letting 47 drill halls under their control. My hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire would be pleased to find on page 85 of the Estimates that, whereas a lot of public money is being spent, there are receipts from sub-letting Territorial Army and cadet force premises. It is hoped in the year ending 31st March, 1966, to raise £150,000 from the sub-letting of drill halls. This would be £15,000 more than the previous year.

I wonder whether the experience in Kent is typical of the rest of the country. I will limit my remarks to the effect of all this on the good will of the Territorial Army and its recruiting in Kent, but I would like to know how far these activities concerning the subletting of drill halls affects the rest of the country. It is interesting to note that last month the right hon. Member for Ashford (Mr. Deedes), in a supplementary question, asked my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Defence for the Army: Will the Under-Secretary have a very careful look at this matter? Is he aware that certainly in relation to the County of Kent the policy has made very little sense, particularly from the point of view of the Territorial Army, which counts tremendously on the good will of other organisations? A great deal of good will was forfeited by the way in which this policy was implemented"—[OFFICIAL RLPORT, 15th February, 1965; Vol. 706, c. 841.] The policy to which he was referring was the policy of the County of Kent T.A. Association which, for example, during the last Christmas holidays sent out notices to organizations—old-age pensioners, young wives' clubs, townswomen's guilds, the Bromley Liberal Association, the Dover Dog Training Club, the Erith Conservative Association, the British Legion and othes—with instructions about the hiring of drill halls. It should be remembered that these clubs—rifle clubs and similar organizations—are the bodies upon which the Territorial Army depends for its good will. It is on the relationship it has with these organisations that the Territorial Army increases or decreases in stature. As the right hon. Member for Ashford pointed out, a great deal of good will was forfeited as a result of the implementation of that policy. As a result of Questions in the House, a great deal of correspondence and a number of telephone inquiries, I have been amazed to discover how little control the Defence Ministry has over what is happening within the T.A. Association.

With few exceptions, the local drill halls have been built at colossal expense to the public. The Territorial Army Manual makes it clear that the T.A. Association has the job of subletting them to civilian organisations. Since, as a result of these casual sublettings, the amount of the Defence Vote is lowered, I urge that there should be a change in the present arrangements. Where it is proved that the Association has failed to carry out its obligations, to the detriment of the Territorial Army, action should be taken. In the County of Kent, for example, unless something is done the drill halls will become gloomier and emptier than ever before.

The drill halls are primarily for the welfare of the T.A. organisations, the cadet forces and so on. However, we have found in Kent that there is not very much work being done by these organisations in our drill halls, as a result of which the policy has been to sublet them for casual lettings. This letting policy does not interfere in any way with the activities of the Territorial Army or any affiliated organisations.