– in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 10 December 1964.
Sir Kenneth Pickthorn
, Carlton
I feel it necessary to say something more by way of protest if it is in order at this juncture. If it is not, I should like to be advised when I may.
Sir Harry Hylton-Foster
, Cities of London and Westminster
The Chair has always deprecated the debating of this Motion. Secondly, I venture to remind hon. Members that in the early hours of this morning, I understand, both sides were of opinion that we should complete the Bill by about 8 o'clock tonight.
Sir Kenneth Pickthorn
, Carlton
Nobody could be more fully conscious of those things than I am. I do not think I was out of the Chamber for 20 minutes yesterday and I have not been out of the Chamber for ten minutes today. The matters which excite me I drew to the attention of the Chair informally and in every way I could to the Treasury Bench from Second Reading onwards and even before.
7.15 p.m.
It is quite plain—I do not think that anyone who has heard the debates today doubts it—that with very few exceptions, there is no feeling of certainty on either side, either about what the law is which we are purporting to amend or about the effect of the purported Amendment.
Sir Harry Hylton-Foster
, Cities of London and Westminster
Order. I have told the hon. Member that the Chair deprecates the debating of this Motion. If, however, it is to be debated, the hon. Member must argue why we should or should not report the Bill, as amended, to the House. He cannot now talk about the merits of the Bill.
Sir Kenneth Pickthorn
, Carlton
I am arguing that we should not report the Bill, as amended, because I do not see how, if the Bill, as amended, is reported to the House, it will be possible ever to get any kind of justice or sense into this law. We are entangled here in a kind of incestuous intertwining of vicious circles in about 15 dimensions—
Sir Harry Hylton-Foster
, Cities of London and Westminster
Order. The hon. Member must not discuss the merits of the Bill. There have been opportunities for that and there will be further opportunities in accordance with Parliamentary procedure. What the hon. Member must seek to argue if he proposes to continue this debate—which, I have pointed out, the Chair deprecates—is reasons why the Bill should not be reported to the House.
Sir Kenneth Pickthorn
, Carlton
I will do my best, Dr. King. I have been thirty years in the House of Commons and no one has ever been more anxious than I have been not in any way to offend or even to cease to help the Chair. I am not arguing the merits of the Bill. I am arguing that the attempt to use the discussion of the Bill to get into the heads of Members of the House of Commons and others who study its debates any understanding of where we are, legally, has been completely muddled and wholly unsucessful.
Sir Harry Hylton-Foster
, Cities of London and Westminster
Order. The hon. Member will have an opportunity of making that kind of observation at a later Parliamentary stage of the Bill. What he has to seek to do now, if he proposes to continue the debate, which the Chair deprecates, is to urge a reason why the House should not perform the traditional procedure that it has followed for 100 years of reporting a Bill from Committee to the House.
Sir Kenneth Pickthorn
, Carlton
I will not endeavour to exercise my ingenuity further.
Mr Marcus Lipton
, Lambeth Brixton
None left.
Sir Kenneth Pickthorn
, Carlton
I do not know who interrupted or what he said. If the Chair does not want time wasted, I had better not be interrupted. I have no wish whatever to be tiresome to the Chair, or even to right hon. and hon. Members opposite or to my own front bench, but I believe this to be a mess of a kind which is unprecedented.
The House of Commons is one of the houses of parliament. Here, elected MPs (elected by the "commons", i.e. the people) debate. In modern times, nearly all power resides in this house. In the commons are 650 MPs, as well as a speaker and three deputy speakers.
As a bill passes through Parliament, MPs and peers may suggest amendments - or changes - which they believe will improve the quality of the legislation.
Many hundreds of amendments are proposed by members to major bills as they pass through committee stage, report stage and third reading in both Houses of Parliament.
In the end only a handful of amendments will be incorporated into any bill.
The Speaker - or the chairman in the case of standing committees - has the power to select which amendments should be debated.
The Second Reading is the most important stage for a Bill. It is when the main purpose of a Bill is discussed and voted on. If the Bill passes it moves on to the Committee Stage. Further information can be obtained from factsheet L1 on the UK Parliament website.
The first bench on either side of the House of Commons, reserved for ministers and leaders of the principal political parties.
