Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 7 December 1964.
Mr Tom Driberg
, Barking
12:00,
7 December 1964
I was completely unaware, I say it frankly, of the resolution by the Guild Church Council which the hon. and gallant Baronet the Member for Worcestershire, South (Sir P. Agnew) had read out, and, of course, I naturally accept what he has said on that point. I was myself under the impression that what the Guild Church Council had agreed to was the scheme in general—for the offices, the chapel, and so on—but that it did not appreciate that this involved also the demotion, if that is the word, of its church from being a Guild church.
I quite see that what the hon. and gallant Gentleman has read out about the chaplain and the chapel rather confirms what he says, but I still cannot understand why it was thought necessary to do this. It is quite possible, in conformity with Section 27 and Section 20 of the other Measure, to appropriate a church or part of a church, and still allow it to retain Guild church status. If the bishop is to appoint a chaplain, anyway, I cannot quite see why there should be all this fuss, and why he cannot make that chaplain the Guild church vicar. Presumably, he would be the secretary of the Christian Stewardship Council, which is to occupy the offices. I cannot understand why they should insist on depriving the church of its Guild church status.
It was a very inconvenient time of year. The Church commissioners know as well as anyone that August is the time when many people are on holiday and is a a very awkward time to push something through, with 31st August as the last date for lodging objections. I wish that the hon. and gallant Baronet had been able to tell us that, as an act of grace—and they must know the meaning of that term—the Church Commissioners would take this Scheme back just for a few weeks to allow an objection to be lodged and considered in the ordinary way.
I cannot see why he could not have given us that assurance, since there is this definite grievance even if it is based, as he insists—and I accept his word—on a misunderstanding of the position, or on forgetfulness. I wish that he could have told us that. I do not know what the position is of trying to press the Motion to a Division—I do not know how many hon. Members are left in the precincts of the House, and it might be a farcical Division, to be frank—but I am sorry to say that I do not feel inclined to withdraw my Motion.
Matters concerning the established Church of England are dealt with at Question Time by a parliamentary representative of the church commissioners.
The church commissioner's role is to answer any parliamentary questions relating to the Church of England in the same way that a government minister may face questions about a particular government department.
The Second Church Estates Commissioner is appointed by the crown and is traditionally a backbench member of the party in government. The appointment lasts for the duration of the Parliament.
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