Business of the House

– in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 16th July 1964.

Alert me about debates like this

Mr. H. Wilson:

May I ask the Leader of the House whether he will state the business of the House for next week?

Photo of Mr Selwyn Lloyd Mr Selwyn Lloyd , Wirral

Yes, Sir. The business for next week will be as follows:

MONDAY, 20TH JULY—Supply [24th Allotted Day]: Committee.

Debate on the Cost of Living. We propose to facilitate consideration of the Lords Amendments to the following Private Members' Bills.

  • Scrap Metal Dealers,
  • Riding Establishments, and
  • Trading Stamps;
and the remaining stages of the New Forest Bill [Lords].

TUESDAY, 21ST JULY—Supply [25th Allotted Day]: Committee.

Debate on Trade and Industry in Scotland.

At 9.30 p.m. the Question will be put from the Chair on the Vote under discussion and on all outstanding Votes, under Standing Order No. 18.

Remaining stages of the Divorce (Scotland) Bill [Lords].

WEDNESDAY, 22ND JULY—Second Reading of the John F. Kennedy Memorial Bill, after which we shall ask the House to take the remaining stages.

Debate on the Report from the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries on the British Overseas Airways Corporation.

Second Reading of the Statute Law Revision Bill [Lords], and of the Statute Law Revision (Scotland) Bill [Lords].

Motions on the Double Taxation Relief Orders for Malawi and Northern Rhodesia.

THURSDAY, 23RD JULY—Supply [26th Allotted Day]: Report.

Debate on the Family Doctor Service, until seven o'clock, and afterwards on Concessionary Fares.

At 9.30 p.m. the Question will be put from the Chair on the Vote under discussion and on all outstanding Votes, under Standing Order No. 18.

Motions on the Thames Conservancy Orders, and the Police Pensions Regulations.

FRIDAY, 24TH JULY—Remaining stages of the following Bills:

  • Diplomatic Privileges [Lords].
  • Education [Lords].
  • Criminal Procedure (Insanity) [Lords].
  • Staute Law Revision [Lords].
  • Statute Law Revision (Scotland) [Lords].

Afterwards, consideration of any Lords Amendments to Bills which may be received.

MONDAY, 27TH JULY—The proposed business will be: Second Reading of the Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill.

Mr. Wilson:

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that I have asked him for five weeks running when we are to get a statement from the Minister of Aviation about the VC10? Is he aware that we were given to understand that he would make a statement today; that this was printed in the Press? In view of the fact that almost daily we read in the Press, in the most intimate details, a statement of what the Minister of Aviation is going to tell his Cabinet colleagues to do—about the numbers affected and all the rest of it—will the right hon. and learned Gentleman either tell us what the rest of the Cabinet think about the Minister of Aviation or, at the very least, tell us whether we are to have this statement before the debate on civil aviation next week?

Photo of Mr Selwyn Lloyd Mr Selwyn Lloyd , Wirral

The right hon. Gentleman must not always believe what he reads in the Press. A statement will be made on Monday

Mr. Wilson:

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that I do not always believe what I read in the Press about the Minister of Aviation; that all I believe is that this is what the Minister of Aviation wants the Press to believe, and not what the Cabinet has decided?

Photo of Mr Selwyn Lloyd Mr Selwyn Lloyd , Wirral

A statement will be made on Monday.

Photo of Sir Arthur Harvey Sir Arthur Harvey , Macclesfield

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that many of us appreciate the magnitude of the problem regarding the past mistakes of the administration of B.O.A.C., and that we want to be as helpful as possible, but will he convey to his colleagues in the meantime that a great many hon. Members, certainly on this side of the House, would not be prepared to accept a cancellation of the VC10 project?

Mr. Lee:

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that up till now the minutes of evidence of the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries in regard to its Report have not been published? Can we have an assurance that they will be made available to us in ample time so that we may study them before the debate on civil aviation takes place on Wednesday?

Photo of Mr Selwyn Lloyd Mr Selwyn Lloyd , Wirral

I will look into that point.

Photo of Mr Angus Maude Mr Angus Maude , Stratford-on-Avon

In view of certain Press statements, can my right hon. and learned Friend say whether he now expects, before the House rises, the Report of the Lawrence Committee on the remuneration of Ministers and hon. Members, and whether he himself has made any official proposals to that Committee?

Photo of Mr Selwyn Lloyd Mr Selwyn Lloyd , Wirral

The answer to the first part of my hon. Friend's question is "No, Sir". In view of what I had read in the Press, I asked Sir Geoffrey Lawrence about this matter and he wished me to make it clear that it was never expected that the Committee would report before the General Election and that it has not yet come to any decision on the matters referred to it.

In reply to the second point raised by my hon. Friend, I had no authority to make any proposals.

Photo of Mr Arthur Woodburn Mr Arthur Woodburn , Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire

Can the Leader of the House say when a statement will be made about the situation of the new Scottish university, since it was understood that such a statement would be made today? Can he give the date when that statement will be made about where the university will be placed?

Photo of Mr Selwyn Lloyd Mr Selwyn Lloyd , Wirral

Not without notice.

Photo of Mr Lawrence Orr Mr Lawrence Orr , South Down

Do I take it from the fact that my right hon. and learned Friend did not mention it in the business for next week that the Vestures of Ministers Measure is not being taken next week? If not, would my right hon. and learned Friend represent to the hon. Member who may be in charge of this Measure that there is a very large body of opinion in the House which thinks that it should not be—

Photo of Sir Harry Hylton-Foster Sir Harry Hylton-Foster , Cities of London and Westminster

That is not a question which the Leader of the House can be asked on the business statement.

Photo of Mr Leo Abse Mr Leo Abse , Pontypool

Is it the intention of the Attorney-General to make a statement next week about the directive by the Director of Public Prosecutions on the subject of homosexuality? Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman, in particular, realise the need for the House to have such a statement, since as recently as 1962, when I attempted to put this matter in legislative form, it was rejected by the Home Office? The House would like to know what are the circumstances which have caused this volte face.

Photo of Mr Selwyn Lloyd Mr Selwyn Lloyd , Wirral

I will see that my right hon. and learned Friend is made aware of what the hon. Gentleman has asked. I am not certain, but it is my impression that there are some Questions on the Order Paper about this subject.

Photo of Mr John Arbuthnot Mr John Arbuthnot , Dover

When does the Leader of the House expect to be able to find time for the Vestures of Ministers Measure? Does he expect that it will be at a reasonable hour of the day, so that it can be fully discussed?

Photo of Mr Selwyn Lloyd Mr Selwyn Lloyd , Wirral

The answer is not next week, but I will bear in mind what my hon. Friend says.

Photo of Mr Lawrence Orr Mr Lawrence Orr , South Down

On a point of order. A moment ago, Mr. Speaker, you ruled that when I asked my right hon. and learned Friend to bear something in mind about business, it was out of order. You have now allowed a question from my hon. Friend the Member for Dover (Sir J. Arbuthnot) asking that time should be allowed. I was merely asking almost the same question—that time should not be allowed, to meet the wishes of many hon. Members who feel that the matter should not be brought forward in this Parliament.

Photo of Sir Harry Hylton-Foster Sir Harry Hylton-Foster , Cities of London and Westminster

If I fell on the hon. and gallant Gentleman too soon, I much regret the matter. It seemed to me that the business aspect of the question was getting a little equipped with vestments.

Photo of Mr Donald Wade Mr Donald Wade , Huddersfield West

Will there be a statement tomorrow, or early next week, on the subject of the Post Office workers' dispute? Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman consult his right hon. Friend the Postmaster-General on a problem which is causing some concern? A number of pensioners, including public service pensioners, receive their pensions by post. Could a statement be made as soon as possible about whether postal packages of that nature could be expedited, so as to avoid unnecessary hardship?

Photo of Mr Selwyn Lloyd Mr Selwyn Lloyd , Wirral

I am certain that my right hon. Friend will be aware of that matter.

Photo of Miss Irene Ward Miss Irene Ward , Tynemouth

Does my right hon. and learned Friend know when we are to have a statement about a nuclear ship, as promised, by the Minister of Transport, and, if so, whether we will be able to have a debate on it when we have it?

Photo of Mr Selwyn Lloyd Mr Selwyn Lloyd , Wirral

The answer to the first question is "No, Sir", and, until I know the answer to that, the second question does not arise.

Photo of Miss Peggy Herbison Miss Peggy Herbison , Lanarkshire North

Will the Leader of the House consult the Secretary of State for Education and Science and the Secretary of State for Scotland to ensure that a statement is made next week on the siting of the new university in Scotland? Is he aware that a telegram was handed to me only a few minutes ago from one of the leading Scottish educationists saying that the shilly-shallying of the Government over this matter was intolerable, since it might mean the loss of a whole academic year?

Photo of Mr Selwyn Lloyd Mr Selwyn Lloyd , Wirral

I will certainly discuss the matter with my right hon. Friends.

Photo of Mr Charles Loughlin Mr Charles Loughlin , Gloucestershire West

Reverting to the question by my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypool (Mr. Abse), did I understand the Leader of the House to refer to Questions on the Order Paper? If so, when he is considering what can be done to meet this situation next week, will he bear in mind that although some of us have Questions on this subject on the Order Paper, we cannot possibly reach them, and it is, therefore, essential for the House to have a statement?

Photo of Mr Selwyn Lloyd Mr Selwyn Lloyd , Wirral

I will certainly bear that in mind.

Photo of Mr William Yates Mr William Yates , The Wrekin

Would the Leader of the House be good enough to read the Motions in the names of my hon. Friend the Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior) and myself?

Am I correct in saying that there will be no time for a further foreign affairs debate in this Session? If so, can the Leader of the House make certain that the Foreign Secretary makes a statement about the situation in South-West Arabia and the Yemen, because our businessmen do not wish to get unnecessarily involved in further complications in that part of the world?

Photo of Mr Selwyn Lloyd Mr Selwyn Lloyd , Wirral

There is no doubt that there will not be time for another foreign affairs debate, but I have no doubt that my right hon. Friend will note what my hon. Friend has said.

Photo of Mr James Prior Mr James Prior , Lowestoft

On a point of order. I have signed some curious Motions in my time, Mr. Speaker, but I am not aware that I have signed the Motion which my hon. Friend mentioned.

Photo of Sir Harry Hylton-Foster Sir Harry Hylton-Foster , Cities of London and Westminster

We can refer to the Notice Paper in due course. Meanwhile, I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will be acquitted.

Photo of Mr Michael Foot Mr Michael Foot , Ebbw Vale

As the communiqué from the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference says that the future of Southern Rhodesia is a matter for the British Parliament, will not the Leader of the House either rearrange the business for next week, or guarantee to the House that there will be a full opportunity for a debate on Southern Rhodesia, and, in particular, the Prime Minister's reports about the representations made for the release of prisoners there, before the House of Commons rises at the end of July?

Does not the Leader of the House think that the best way to deal with this would be to have a debate next week, in view of the great urgency of this situation and of the necessity of the House hearing what representations the Prime Minister has made to Southern Rhodesia about the imprisonment of people without trial?

Photo of Mr Selwyn Lloyd Mr Selwyn Lloyd , Wirral

No, Sir. There are three Supply days next week and one day on which will be debated the Reports on the nationalised industries, so that no time for another debate is afforded.

Photo of Mr Arthur Lewis Mr Arthur Lewis , West Ham North

As the business on Monday week is the Second Reading of the Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill, is it not the case that, subject to your Ruling, Mr. Speaker, the matter raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypool (Mr. Abse), concerning the Home Secretary's statement on homosexuality, police investigations into alleged bribery and corruption and illegal practices of various sorts, the action of the Home Secretary in the Kenneth de Courcy case, and other subjects, can be raised during that debate? As many hon. Members are anxious to raise the Spanish issue, is not that possible, too?

Photo of Mr Selwyn Lloyd Mr Selwyn Lloyd , Wirral

It is not for me to say what is in order.

Photo of Mr William Ross Mr William Ross , Kilmarnock

Is the Leader of the House aware that one of the most successful aspects of his leadership of the House has been the respect which he has gained from the Scots by his willingness to be helpful about Scottish business? Is he aware that he is beginning to lose his touch?

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman have another look at Tuesday's business? He will be aware that on that day the Scottish Grand Committee is meeting at half-past ten to deal with Estimates and that we shall then come to the House to hear Questions to the Prime Minister, fresh from his morning labours in the Committee. We are then to have a debate on Scottish trade and industry, the most important Scottish debate of the year, from half-past three to half-past nine and we are then to start on the Scottish Divorce Bill, which, when it was last in Committee, was discussed from half-past ten in the morning until two o'clock the following morning. Is it fair to take important Scottish business of this kind at half-past nine after a full day's work has already been done?

Photo of Mr Selwyn Lloyd Mr Selwyn Lloyd , Wirral

I am certainly in the hands of the House in these matters and I try to do my best to help Scottish Members, but the alternative might have been Friday and I thought that that might be even less convenient.

Photo of Mr Jon Rankin Mr Jon Rankin , Glasgow Govan

A few moments ago, the right hon. and learned Gentleman said, in reply to my right hon. Friend the Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire (Mr. Woodburn), that he would require notice of a question about the new university for Scotland. A little later, in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Lanarkshire, North (Miss Herbison), he said that he would discuss with his right hon. Friends the question of giving an answer next week. Does he not appreciate that the House will rise in a fortnight? Can he assure me that we will get a statement about the siting of the new university before the House rises at the end of July?

Photo of Mr Selwyn Lloyd Mr Selwyn Lloyd , Wirral

I can answer only the question put to me, and the question was whether a statement was to be made next week, or whether I could announce the date of the statement, and I replied that I could not do so without notice.

Photo of Mr John Leavey Mr John Leavey , Heywood and Royton

While not wishing to encourage racial prejudice at all, may I ask my right hon. and learned Friend whether he agrees that these last questions are an indication that we are spending a disproportionate amount of our time on Scottish affairs?

Photo of Sir Harry Hylton-Foster Sir Harry Hylton-Foster , Cities of London and Westminster

This is a Supply Day, and the House will not like if if we use too much of it now.

Photo of Mr Laurie Pavitt Mr Laurie Pavitt , Willesden West

With regard to the debate next Thursday on the family doctor service, can the right hon. and learned Gentleman say whether we will get a report, or an interim report, from the Fraser Committee prior to that debate? If not, can the right hon. and learned Gentleman give us an assurance that any information or evidence which the Minister may wish to use with regard to that Committee will be available to hon. Members on the back benches?

Photo of Mr Selwyn Lloyd Mr Selwyn Lloyd , Wirral

Once again, I cannot answer that question without notice, but I shall tell my right hon. Friend about it.

Photo of Dr Alan Glyn Dr Alan Glyn , Wandsworth Clapham

Is there any chance of my right hon. and learned Friend giving further consideration to Private Members' Bills, in particular my Bill entitled Civil Proceedings (Registration of Change of Address), which has reached its Third Reading stage?

Photo of Mr Selwyn Lloyd Mr Selwyn Lloyd , Wirral

I sympathise, not necessarily with the principle of my hon. Friend's Bill, but with the purpose of facilitating private Members in their legislative endeavours, but I cannot hold out much hope.

Photo of Mr Tom Driberg Mr Tom Driberg , Barking

Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman say whether next week, or before the House rises, there will be a statement and a debate on the constitutional and economic future of Malta?

Photo of Mr Selwyn Lloyd Mr Selwyn Lloyd , Wirral

I cannot answer that today.

Photo of Mr Norman Pentland Mr Norman Pentland , Chester-le-Street

Has the attention of the Leader of the House been drawn to a Motion on the Notice Paper in my name, about the General Election?

[That this House urges the Prime Minister to make an announcement forthwith about the date of the General Election in order to clear up the uncertainty created by the statement made by the Vice-Chairman of the Conservative Parry on this matter.]

In view of the fact that the Prime Minister specifically invited me to raise this matter, can the right hon. and learned Gentleman tell me whether it is the intention of the Government to have this matter debated before the House rises for the Summer Recess, or are we to understand that the Prime Minister will announce the date of the General Election within the next fortnight, bearing in mind that it has already become public knowledge that the Vice-Chairman of the Conservative Party has referred to 5th October as coming within the General Election time?

Photo of Mr Selwyn Lloyd Mr Selwyn Lloyd , Wirral

This is a matter which affects all hon. Members who may be submitting themselves again for election to this House. There are certain consequences of an official announcement of the date of the election, of which I think most hon. Members will not be unaware.

Photo of Mr Tam Dalyell Mr Tam Dalyell , West Lothian

In the light of the clear and categorical statement on 2nd July, HANSARD cols. 1673–4, by the hon. Lady the Member for Aberdeen, South (Lady Tweedsmuir) concerning the location of the Scottish University, that it would be announced by 16th July "at the latest", will the right hon. and learned Gentleman also make time for a personal statement by the hon. Lady so that she can say why she has not fulfilled this promise?

Hon. Members:

Answer.

Photo of Mr Willie Hamilton Mr Willie Hamilton , Fife West

May I press the Leader of the House to answer that question in view of the great concern in Scotland as to the location of the new university? May I further raise two matters with him: first, my right hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) referred to the Divorce (Scotland) Bill which is to come on on Tuesday. Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that during the Committee stage the ostensible sponsor of the Bill withdrew the two principal Clauses of it, one of which includes three additional grounds for divorce?

My hon. Friend the Member for Pontypool (Mr. Abse) subsequently has sought, and will seek again next Tuesday, to put back that Clause with those three new grounds for divorce. I propose to add four more new grounds for divorce. There will, therefore, be no prospect of getting the Bill next Tuesday night, if at all.

Secondly, has the right hon. and learned Gentleman's attention been drawn to Motion No. 160 in my name, about the Prime Minister's dereliction of duty, not only in transferring Questions, but in making speeches in the House?

[This House strongly resents the contemptuous and arrogant way in which the Prime Minister deliberately evades his duty, as evidence by the facts, that in the last two months alone, up to 9th July, he has transferred to other Ministers 98 Questions addressed specifically to him, without giving any reasons for so doing, and that in nine months of office he has made only five speeches in the House, none of which has been on any major domestic issue, a record of comparative silence unequalled in British Parliamentary history; and calls on the Prime Minister, in the very brief time left to him, to show more enthusiasm in presenting his policies to the elected representatives of the people.]

Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman say whether the Prime Minister will be making a speech next week, or ever in this Parliament? His is the nearest approach to a Trappist monk that we have ever had.

Photo of Mr Selwyn Lloyd Mr Selwyn Lloyd , Wirral

The hon. Gentleman's desire for punishment seems to be obsessive.

Photo of Mr Paul Williams Mr Paul Williams , Sunderland South

Amidst the superfluity of Scottish business, is there any prospect of North-East business being debated today?

Photo of Mr Marcus Lipton Mr Marcus Lipton , Lambeth Brixton

May I ask the Leader of the House when the pledge that was given to the House by the Home Secretary is to be implemented? I refer to the further amendment to the Police Widows Pension Regulations.

Photo of Mr Selwyn Lloyd Mr Selwyn Lloyd , Wirral

I would refer the hon. Gentleman to my statement on the business for next week.

Photo of Mr Stephen Swingler Mr Stephen Swingler , Newcastle-under-Lyme

While the right hon. and learned Gentleman is considering his answer about the Scottish university may I ask you, Mr. Speaker, when you will be in a position to give your ruling on the transfer of Questions and questions about transfers?

Photo of Sir Harry Hylton-Foster Sir Harry Hylton-Foster , Cities of London and Westminster

On either Monday or Tuesday. I am sorry that I have not done it already, but to be frank I have been under heavy pressure of business during the last 72 hours, and I have not had time to do it.

Photo of Mr Hector Hughes Mr Hector Hughes , Aberdeen North

May I make a constructive suggestion—[Laughter.]—which does not merit the levity which the Government's supporters are showing? I wish to support the constructive suggestion made by my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross) about Tuesday's business and the difficulty which he has pointed out will occur if the Scottish business planned for Tuesday is taken on that day.

My suggestion is that the Leader of the House should transpose the business for Tuesday and Wednesday, and take the Kennedy Memorial business on Tuesday, and the Scottish business on Wednesday. That would be suitable to all parties. It is a constructive suggestion which I ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman to consider favourably.

Photo of Mr Selwyn Lloyd Mr Selwyn Lloyd , Wirral

I have some Scottish business for Wednesday night already.

Photo of Mr William Yates Mr William Yates , The Wrekin

Earlier, when I referred to a Motion I mentioned my hon. Friend the Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior). I was mistaken. I was referring to an important Motion standing in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Yarmouth (Mr. Fell):

[That this House, in view of the continued presence of large numbers of Egyptian forces in the Yemen, in contravention of the Security Council resolution of 11th June, 1963, and of the increasing threat to international security and to British life and other interests in the Middle East, urges Her Majesty's Government to take effective measures to secure the withdrawal of Egyptian invasion forces.]

to which I have tabled an Amendment:

Line 2, leave out from Yemen, to end and add "urges Her Majesty's Government as a great international power, to forget all passed and trivial differences with the United Arab Republic and to endeavour to implement without question Resolution 1949 of the General Assembly of the United Nations of 11th December 1963 as the basis of discussion at the South Arabian Constitutional Conference now being held in London, and invites Her Majesty's Government to propose to the United Nations the creation of a small neutral United Nations Zone in North Yemen to become the state of the Iman, and, at the same time, to recognise the Republic of the Yemen following the example of members of the Commonwealth, and recommends that President Nasser should be invited to London at once to discuss any differences which might affect Great Britain's oil supplies and full employment in Great Britain or any other British Commonwealth interest in the Middle East.

I would be grateful if that could be noted.

Photo of Mr William Ross Mr William Ross , Kilmarnock

I hope that the Leader of the House will look again at the business for Tuesday. There is far too great a concentration of very important business on that day. It will probably be nearer ten o'clock before we start to discuss the Divorce (Scotland) Bill, because of all the Votes, and so on, which have to be put. The Bill started in life as a Private Member's Bill, but the only person in the Scottish Office who is pressing it is the Lord Advocate, who is not a Member of the House. Will the Leader of the House think about this again? There is no reason why it should not be delayed. Why not let the Church of England come in that night and have "a bit of a barney"?

Photo of Mr Selwyn Lloyd Mr Selwyn Lloyd , Wirral

I shall consider any representations that are made to me, but I do not think that I am being unreasonable.