Defence

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 26 February 1964.

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Photo of Mr Jo Grimond Mr Jo Grimond , Orkney and Shetland 12:00, 26 February 1964

I hope that the Government will be able to give the hon. Member for Louth (Sir C. Osborne) clear and precise answers to the questions posed in the earlier part of his speech. For myself, I wholly sympathise with his view about the need to help the hungry and raise the standard of life of the poorer countries. Like him, I would rejoice if Russia suddenly decided to join what he called Western Christendom. However, if his defence policy is to maintain expenditure on the British nuclear bomb but cut it elsewhere, then I must disagree with him.

I agree with the approach of the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hall Green (Mr. Aubrey Jones) to the nuclear deterrent. He is right in saying that this is a matter of considerable complexity. No one suggests that one can simply cast the British nuclear deterrent into the sea. Equally, I hope, no one suggests that the future of the British nuclear deterrent can be discussed apart from the general future of the Western Alliance.

The right hon. Member for Hall Green has an interesting history in this matter. He was the Minister who was at one time responsible for the provision of British nuclear weapons. I recall that when I was the only hon. Member in the House in a defence debate to suggest that such weapons were unnecessary, the Labour Party as well as the Conservatives were in favour of maintaining them. On that occasion the right hon. Member for Hall Green replied to the debate on behalf of the Government, although it became obvious that he did not agree with Government policy. Since then he has been out of step with the official view of the Conservative Party.

What interested me in his speech were some of the conclusions he drew, and I will later refer to his views about the danger of having two centres of nuclear power in the world. In his view, as I understood it, danger would arise from having a European as well as an American centre. He expressed the hope that the M.L.F. might form a basis for a new single centre.

To continue to hold out for the British independent nuclear deterrent streams from fundamental emotional attitudes. Who really wants to maintain the independent nuclear deterrent? Those who believe in their guts, so to speak, that Britain must, in her own right—independently of the world—remain a great Power. They go on to say that being a great Power implies having the biggest weapons one can lay one's hands on. Those who think that we must continue to keep the British independent nuclear deterrent also take that view partly from inertia and partly from the feeling that at some time it may come in useful although they cannot be precise about when that might be.

If that is denied, consider the arguments that are now being put up for it. It was said by the Prime Minister that it was our card of entry to the top table at conferences. The only conference it ever got us into was the Test Ban Conference in Moscow. It is a most extraordinary argument that one must keep nuclear weapons so that one can be present at conferences to make treaties to ban them. It did not get us into the consultations over Cuba and it has got us into no other high level conference.

The Minister of Defence stated the case for the deterrent when, as I understood him, he said that under no circumstances, even if there was an agreement between Russia and America to limit any further expansion of nuclear weapons, would we give up the right to the Polaris submarines or go back on our determination to have our own independent nuclear deterrent. This is to them a fundamental matter and, come what may, the Government feel that this has an intimate connection with the rôle of Britain in the world; as the Prime Minister has made clear. My party disapproves of that view of the basis of Britain's greatness and her rôle in the world.

The second argument put up in that White Paper—and the first one is not in the White Paper—is that the Russians may gamble on a belief that the Americans would not come to the rescue of Europe with their nuclear forces should an attack take place. This is an incredible argument. Is it really considered that Russia would risk launching war upon Europe as long as there were American soldiers and battlefield atomic weapons in Europe? Do the Government seriously believe that this is the Russian view? The Prime Minister has often said that the Russians are in a very pacific mood. Is it contemplated that that country, which is growing more pacific, would take such a risk—with the Americans and their troops in Europe? Is it thought that the Russians believe that those troops would not react to a Russian advance?

It is also assumed, for some reason, that the Russians would believe that the British would react if the Americans did not. Supposing there was a threat to West Berlin. Is it thought that the Russians would be more likely to think that the British would react and begin a first strike nuclear attack on Russia than would the Americans? I do not think that the arguments in favour of the independent deterrent now stand up to examination nor that they are seriously relied upon by the Government.

But the whole of this controversy about nuclear arms is moving into a new stage. Within the next few years it will be possible for any country which wants to to open up again the whole question of the N.A.T.O. Treaty. In Europe, there will soon be a General Election in this country and one in Germany, and, further afield, in America there will be the Presidential election. It is not very likely, therefore, that this will be the right atmosphere for the public in either Britain or America to get a great deal of cal n guidance about the future of N.A.T.O.

In any defence debate we must of necessity discuss not so much the present condition of defence but the condition in which it may be in anything from two to 10 years hence, because decisions taken now will not take effect for a considerable time. We must therefore consider the impending changes which may come about in N.A.T.O. thinking and in the N.A.T.O. treaties. Great changes in the general situation have occurred since N.A.T.O. was set up and there is now widespread belief that the danger of a direct Russian attack in Europe is extremely small. This, after all, was the reason for the establishment of N.A.T.O. and, in this respect, I agree with the remarks of the hon. Member for Louth.

Secondly, there is agreement that the British have widespread responsibilities throughout the world of a type possibly not so clearly foreseen when the original treaties were signed. It has been assumed in the debate that these obligations will go on, and in much the same form. I think that they will go on, but I am not so convinced that they will go on in the same form. In the transition from Empire to Commonwealth it may be acceptable to Governments in Africa to ask the British to restore order within their country. They may have to move from that position, but what may happen is that there may be wars or dangers of wars among certain countries in Africa or in other Continents. This would be a different and extremely dangerous situation and one which the British will he much less able to handle on their own.

Furthermore, it is also assumed even in the present circumstances that when the British are called in, this is temporary and that they can be called out again by the substitution of some international force. We should, of course, use all our efforts to get a permanent United Nations force established. But there is not one capable of doing this sort of job at present, and I wonder how far we shall be able to withdraw our forces quickly from some of the places where they may become embroiled. Therefore, our responsibility outside the N.A.T.O. area is more important since N.A.T.O. was set up. It may change its nature but it may also increase in importance. Our prime purpose therefore is to fulfil it and we need more means of moving conventional forces to trouble spots for this purpose and we need more soldiers. I am told on good authority that there is a grave shortage of soldiers in Cyprus.