Orders of the Day — Education

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 17 May 1962.

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Photo of Mr Fergus Montgomery Mr Fergus Montgomery , Newcastle upon Tyne East 12:00, 17 May 1962

I hope that the hon. Lady the Member for Cannock (Miss Lee) will forgive me if I do not follow her in all the points she raised. With one point I agree; I would rather be taught in a ramshackle place by a first-class teacher than by a very poor teacher in a marvellous glass palace. I certainly agreed with the hon. Lady when she expressed those sentiments because it is the teacher who really does the educating and who is far more important than any building.

I regret that the hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. G. Thomas) is not at present in his place because he taunted my hon. Friends about there being a great number of public school boys on this side of the Committee. I do not think that anyone would suggest that my hon. Friend the Member for Petersfield (Miss Quennell) is a public school boy, and in fact 100 per cent. of the men who have spoken from this side of the Committee went to elementary schools, because both the Parliamentary Secretary and myself did so.

I recall that on one occasion I went to Wales to give an address. The lady who was my chairman gat rather carried away by the occasion and said, when introducing me, "Mr. Montgomery was educated at Harrow". I replied, "Not Harrow, dear, but Jarrow". I felt that I had to make that clear lest the impression got abroad that I was an old Harrovian.

This is the first education debate in which I have spoken for some time and I wish to thank the Minister for giving some recognition to the National Association of School Masters and allowing it to be represented on the Burnham Committee. I cannot say that I feel that the number of places allocated to it is at all generous, but the main thing is that it is now on that Committee and this is one of the things I have fought for since I came to the House of Commons. I could never understand the reasons advanced against that body having some representation on the Committee. Its presence on it will mean not only that it will have some say in the salary negotiations but, equally important, that its representatives are now able to be on what are called "committees on the Burnham pattern". The representatives of the National Association of School Masters who are now on these committees will be able to give valuable service and information to assist in the work. This will be all to the good of education and I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his decision.

It is obvious that we must increase the number of teachers. Unfortunately we still have far too many oversize classes and our first priority in education should be to reduce their size. I am pleased, therefore, that we shall have more day training colleges because this is certainly the way to attract more recruits into the profession. The Parliamentary Secretary made a number of suggestions and I should like more information about them before committing myself. It appears, however, that hon. Gentlemen opposite object to them although my hon. Friend made it clear that they were suggestions thrown out so that we could now discuss them. We have been given a chance to put forward other schemes or to suggest what we consider to be wrong with those that have been put forward. It is useless for hon. Members merely to criticise if they do not also make constructive suggestions.

The most urgent need at present exists in the primary schools, and I wonder whether my right hon. Friend would consider having more specialisation in teaching in the primary schools? I have taught in both primary and secondary modern schools and too often a teacher will have the same class with him throughout the day. If it is a bright and well-behaved class then life is reasonably pleasant, but if it is not well-behaved life becomes rather dull by four o'clock, and that time on Friday becomes the most welcome hour of the week because, at least for the weekend, one can relax a little.

In a primary school one must be a Jack-of-all-trades. In a secondary school one has the advantage of specialising in subjects in which one is particularly interested. This is all to the good of both the children and the teachers. As I say, being a Jack-of-all-trades in a primary school is not the most pleasant of tasks. Among the things I had to teach was handwork and art. I have never been classified as an "arty type" and I found the work extremely irksome. However, it had to be done. These jobs become blots on the timetable and make one dread each week. Specialisation in subjects like the arts, music and handicrafts in the primary school would release other teachers to concentrate on teaching arithmetic, English, geography and history and would so improve primary school life that it would become more attractive to recruits.

I remember that in 1954, when teaching in a secondary modern school, there was a shortage of primary school teachers in Newcastle. Because I had previously taught in a primary school I was told to go back to primary school teaching. This was rather depressing because I thought that I had waved a fond farewell to it. If improvements could be made I am sure that more people would want to teach in our primary schools.

Also in connection with the shortage of teachers, I wonder if we are doing sufficient to help the mature students, especially those with families, for many of them have tremendous financial difficulties. I have raised this problem with the Minister at Question Time. I have received a report from Newcastle, where the governors of the training college have been seriously concerned at the financial difficulties experienced by some of their mature students, particularly those who are just married or who have dependants. Many of them have taken on mortgages, and on the level of grant that they receive life is extremely difficult for them. Recently, one of the people on the course had to withdraw because he could not manage on the grant allocated to him.

Students who drop out of these courses represent a loss to the teaching profession. Many of them already have experience of industry or commerce before they decide that they would like to take up teaching. But, because of their family circumstances, many cannot attend a teacher training college or university. I hope that we can do something to assist people of this type.