Clause 1. — (Local Education Authority Awards for First Degree Univer Sity Courses and Comparable Courses in United Kingdom.)

Part of Orders of the Day — EDUCATION (Recommitted) BILL – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 21 February 1962.

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Photo of Mr David Eccles Mr David Eccles , Chippenham 12:00, 21 February 1962

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman the Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey) for putting his three questions in his clear and brief manner. The other institutions are those where the course is something which is really of the same kind of level as one gets in a university, but is in fact given in a specialised institution. Music and art are two obvious examples. I think that the whole Committee would wish that students who are going to take these courses in the Royal College of Music or the Royal Academy of Arts—institutions of that level—should be treated as though they were at universities. We shall have to look carefully at this, and of course we shall have to publish a list of other institutions which qualify under this Clause.

The hon. Gentleman asked me what happens about students admitted to such courses who have not got two A levels. Will any of them by eligible for the grant? I think it is pretty clear—in relation, for example, to an art student, a young man or girl who has got great artistic talent but not two A levels. Will any of them be eligible for case like that we should not wish to stand by the two A levels, and special arrangements will have to be made.

We would all feel that in an institution of university level the willingness of the academic staff to accept a student—in the case of a student of music or art—goes to show that the student is worth giving the course to. I do not want to see everything written down in the regulations. I should have thought a certain amount of discretion was in the best interests of our young people.

10.45 p.m.

The third question was a fairly important one: what hopes are there of abolishing the means test? Hon. Members know that as a matter of principle I would prefer to see no means test, but as a matter of practical finance at this moment, as I have explained before, the £8 million—£10 million—I do not know the exact figure; it depends on the number of students and how the new means test works out—which the Bill will cost per year seems to us, having regard to the very large number of families which will be excluded altogether as a result of the Bill—at least 10,000—about as far as we can go.

Hon. Members who have studied the relaxed means test will agree that it is a very great improvement on what we have had before. We should like to go the whole way, but we cannot. Also, this is not a question which could be remitted to the Advisory Committee because it is manifestly part and parcel of the financing of the education service. We have a great many demands to improve the education service in different places. I say that none is more urgent than expanding our universities, and in this field that would come first. But let us hope that our affairs as a nation go well enough, within not too long a time, so that we may be able to propose to the House of Commons that we abandon the means test.