Orders of the Day — Coal Industry Bill

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 29 November 1961.

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Photo of Mr Thomas Fraser Mr Thomas Fraser , Hamilton 12:00, 29 November 1961

The whole purpose of the short and simple Bill we have been discussing today is contained in the one sentence: … to empower the Minister to advance, up to the end of 1962, not more than £50 million towards financing the Board's accumulated deficit. There has been no serious criticism of the purpose of the Bill and I should imagine that by this time the Minister will be firmly convinced that it will receive an opposed Second Reading. However, the House has properly taken the opportunity to consider the affairs of the mining industry and why there has been a deficit accumulating over the years which has necessitated, at this time, the introduction of the Bill.

In his opening speech the Minister made it clear that the reason for the announcement yesterday of the proposals to increase certain coal prices was that hon. Members would be having a debate today. I think the Minister is now in the position where he must await the representations that might come to him from the Industrial Coal Industry Consumers' Council and then he may either approve or not approve the Coal Board's proposals.

My hon. Friend the Member for Ash-field (Mr. Warbey) said many things about the probable effects and consequences of these proposals. His remarks greatly pleased me. I was delighted that he said what he did about the dangers of returning to district agreements, since my hon. Friend represents one of the districts which would be likely to do rather well out of any war being waged between the divisions of the National Coal Board. But I happen to come from a division which would come worse out of any renewal of the old conflicts between different districts or divisions in the British coalfields. In the statement issued by the Coal Board yesterday, I find these words: The effect of increasing the prices of Scottish and North-Western Divisions' coals will be to bring the proceeds of these coalfields more into line with their cost of production. This is in conformity with the Board's long-term policy. This could mean that sooner or later—and perhaps sooner—efforts would be made to restrain the miners in those two divisions when increased wages are being sought, while granting increases elsewhere. Or it could mean that the Minister and the National Coal Board would be perfectly happy to lose the markets for the coals produced in those divisions and then to proceed with large-scale closures. I wonder if the Parliamentary Secretary, in his reply, could say what the Government understand to be the Board's long-term policy here referred to.

It seems that the policy is more calculated to bring about a rundown in manpower rather than to affect wages, because the following paragraph in the document reads: If the alternative course of a general increase in the prices of all coals were followed, this would mean higher prices for coals got cheaply and efficiently in the Midlands and Yorkshire, possibly leading to a loss of markets for these coals. So the Coal Board was determined not to have a general increase because to do so would have meant a loss of markets for the coals which are the cheapest at the present time. I think the Minister will not deny that these are the cheapest coals, and that the Coal Board was not willing to have a general increase because it would have led to a loss of markets for the cheapest coals. These two divisions where there has been this further selective increase are the divisions which at present have the dearest coals. This policy set out in yesterday's statement must be calculated to lose markets. The purpose of this price increase announced yesterday must be to lose markets for coals produced in the Scottish and North-Western Divisions.

This is a policy matter upon which Her Majesty's Ministers ought to declare themselves, for I think it is a serious business. This is writing off Scotland and the North-West. That is how it seems to me, and I think the Minister is obliged, before we conclude our discussion this evening, to tell us how he sees it and whether he has construed this document as I have done.

The Minister went on in the course of his speech to tell us that he appreciated that there was an application for a wages increase made by the National Union of Mineworkers to the National Coal Board and that he had communicated to Lord Robens the Government's pay pause policy. I think it was very proper that the Minister should do that, and I do not think that any of us would quarrel with anything that he said in this regard this afternoon. But, as he knows full well, he was followed a little later by some of his more irresponsible hon. Friends who demanded that he should instruct Lord Robens that in no circumstances was there to be any wages increase so long as the pay pause continued.

The hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Nabarro) talked about the sanctity of the pay pause and said that even if this goes to arbitration and arising out of arbitration there is an award in favour of a wage increase, the Minister should say today that this would not be honoured. He asked that this award should be dishonoured as other awards have been dishonoured by the Government. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will reply to this proposition put by his hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster and say that he will give no such instruction to Lord Robens and his colleagues at the National Coal Board.

In any case, I was somewhat relieved to be informed that some remarks of Lord Robens were quoted on the tape a little while ago and I went along to check it for myself. I will give to the House what appeared on the tape at 8.24 p.m. Lord Robens, having been told about the Minister's statement, was asked what the position was and he is reported as having said: I have certainly been advised of, and thoroughly understand, the Government's views with regard to the pay pause—as does every employer and trade union leader. I have received no instructions from the Minister or the Government in connection with the present wage negotiations with the miners. If in fact I had been instructed as to my course of action, then I would have had to inform the union accordingly, and I have no doubt that they would then want to transfer their negotiations to the Government. And quite right, too. That must be the position, and I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will assure us that that is the position, that the National Union of Mineworkers will sit down with the National Coal Board to discuss this wages application, and will be able to discuss this matter freely and frankly with the National Coal Board, at the end of the day, reaching its decision, bearing in mind all the relevant considerations including what the Minister has said about the pay pause. But, equally, I hope that account will be taken of the situation in the mining industry, the loss of manpower and all the rest.