Orders of the Day — Clean Rivers (Estuaries and Tidal Waters) Bill

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 27 November 1959.

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Photo of Mr Cledwyn Hughes Mr Cledwyn Hughes , Anglesey 12:00, 27 November 1959

I rise with some diffidence to speak from the Dispatch Box for the first time, but I am fortified in so doing by the knowledge that I speak upon a Bill which is widely supported by hon. Members on both sides of the House. 1, too, offer my sincere congratulations to the hon. Member for Harrogate (Mr. Ramsden) upon his good fortune in the Ballot and also upon his choice of subject. The Bill, which is an extension of the Labour Government's Act of 1951, deserves to be supported, and I was extremely glad to hear the Parliamentary Secretary say that he and his right hon. Friend proposed to give it their support.

I am sorry that I cannot agree with the conclusions of my hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr. A. Brown). He speaks with experience and knowledge on this subject, and I thought that he made some extremely useful suggestions, which he may be able to enlarge upon in Committee. But I could not agree with him that the work of the river boards has not been satisfactory. I should have thought that there would be general agreement in the House that they have worked well and have proved themselves to be effective agencies. There is evidence from all parts of the country to support the contention. They have achieved good results with the 1951 Act.

I can give one illustration from Wales. The condition of the River Tawe, flowing through Swansea in the area of the South-West Wales River Board, has been so improved that last year and this year, for the first time in 60 years, sea trout were able to proceed upstream from Swansea Bay to a point above Pontardawe. This and many other examples can be adduced to prove that the boards are effective agencies, which can safely be entrusted with extended jurisdiction.

This debate has shown the urgent need for some action along the lines of the Bill. Hon. Members on both sides of the House have quoted some appalling examples of pollution in tidal waters. The Tyne at Newcastle has been mentioned several times, and it is a notorious example. Such rivers are little better than open sewers, and it is a sad commentary, in this year of grace, when so much attention is paid to high standards of health and hygiene, that large sections of our people have to live near these filthy rivers. We are told officially that it is not yet possible to establish a connection between water pollution and poliomyelitis, but it is extremely difficult to accept that there are no dangers to health from these heavily polluted rivers.

I was very impressed by the reference which the hon. Member for Gosport and Fareham (Dr. Bennett) made to this point, and with the evidence that the adduced. I repeat his question and ask the Parliamentary Secretary if he can indicate when the report of the Public Health Laboratory Service on the question of water pollution on health is likely to be published.

As the hon. Member for Harrogate indicated, we should consider "tidal waters" and "coastal waters" separately, although as at present drafted the Bill provides for control over both. No one has yet mentioned the Hobday Report, which inspired the 1951 Act. Although it was not particularly forthcoming on the question of tidal waters and estuaries, it acknowledged that it had received much evidence to the effect that the pollution of tidal waters and rivers was increasing. It then said that it envisaged "difficult technical problems" and "heavy financial burdens." The river boards, with their considerable experience, do not foresee such problems, because they support the Bill. It is clear that the Bill refers only to new or altered outlets. We are not dealing with existing discharges.

We know that many existing discharges are highly unsatisfactory, and we must hope that with the maximum co-operation between the boards, local authorities and industry there will be progressive improvement. I was hoping that the Parliamentary Secretary would say something about existing discharges. We should bear in mind that in paragraph 120 the Hobday Report mentioned an estimated expenditure of £100 million in connection with the reorganisation and disposal of domestic sewers alone, and that was a 1949 estimate. However, that is outside the scope of the Bill.

My hon. Friend the Member for Wood Green (Mrs. Butler) made an important point in connection with local authorities. If the Bill becomes law, the water boards will quite properly set more stringent standards, and this will involve local authorities in greater expenditure. I hope that this will in no way inhibit the Parliamentary Secretary or his right hon. Friend from giving the maximum support to the Bill and subsequently giving local authorities suitable financial encouragement, because there is no doubt that they will need it.

As the hon. Member for Harrogate said, as we proceed down the estuary and on to the coast we find ourselves in very deep waters. We are up against formidable legal complications because of the difficulty of finding a precise legal definition of the word "estuary". I trust that the Bill will not be lost because of a drafting complication. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary and his Ministry will be able to bring all the resources of his Department to bear so that a solution may be found and a satisfactory and acceptable Schedule drawn up. If there is any doubt about the ability of the Minister of Housing and Local Government to solve the problem we know that the Parliamentary Secretary can turn to the Minister for Welsh Affairs, who will undoubtedly be able to cope with this difficult question!

I hope that the Bill will succeed. Section 6 of the 1951 Act, although well meant, was a failure. It has resulted in only four orders, and all the evidence shows that river boards have found the procedure too slow, cumbersome and expensive to operate. The hon. Member for Harrogate paid a tribute to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government, but I am afraid that I cannot be quite so generous. The House should remember that at one stage the Ministry actively discouraged boards from submitting draft orders. Given Government support and close and friendly co-operation between river boards, local authorities and industry, we believe that the Bill can help to remove what is a great danger to health and can restore a glory that has been tarnished for far too long.