Employment (Disabled Persons)

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 21 July 1959.

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Photo of Hon. Richard Wood Hon. Richard Wood , Bridlington 12:00, 21 July 1959

I am grateful to the Committee for having allowed me, probably only too willingly, to keep my speech to the end of the debate when I can try to answer the many points that have been raised.

May I add my sincere congratulations to the hon. Member for Whitehaven (Mr. Symonds) on his maiden speech. I hope that he is not getting tired of being congratulated, but we were pleased to hear him and I hope that we shall hear him often. However, I do not share the hope expressed by the hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Dr. King) that the hon. Member's next speech will be from this side of the Committee. The hon. Member for Whitehaven represents a very beautiful county. The trouble with doing that is that the problems of remoteness there are such that training, rehabili- tation and Remploy facilities are apt to be rather sketchy, but I appreciated what he said and the interest that he showed in the rehabilitation and re-employment of these unfortunate people in his constituency who cannot find work.

There is natural concern in this Committee at any increase in the unemployment of the disabled. We are all grateful to those who arranged this debate for giving us a chance, which we get all too rarely, of looking at this matter and examining ways in which the position can be still further improved. In my remarks tonight I should like to deal with the question of disabled unemployment generally, then with the question of those who need sheltered employment, and, lastly, to talk about the part which I believe that the Government should play.

There are four main categories of the disabled. All Governments accept the obligation to assist those who are handicapped, though, in the knowledge of us all, there are many who are generally considered to be handicapped but who suffer no disadvantage whatsoever as far as employment is concerned. We know of a number of such people who are absolutely secure in their jobs, just as secure as any able-bodied person.

Secondly, there are those who, although considerably handicapped, have important abilities remaining and who are capable of highly useful work as long as care is taken in selecting the job. This is something in which doctors, almoners and D.R.O.s have a part to play, but a great deal depends on the attitude of the employer. Perhaps most depends on the attitude of the employer in the field which my hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle (Dr. D. Johnson) mentioned, the rehabilitation and resettlement of those who have been mentally ill.

The hon. Member for Paddington, North (Mr. Parkin) asked me what proportion of registered disabled people had received their disabilities through nervous origins. The figures given in the Ministry of Labour Annual Report for 1958 show that 2·8 per cent. of the total had a disability beginning in psycho-neurosis, and 1·4 per cent. in mental defects and disorders other than psycho-neurosis. Those two categories total 4·2 per cent. and amount to about 30,000 out of a total of 740,000 registered disabled people. That is a considerable proportion.

As I said, a lot depends on the attitude of the employer, whether his attitude is that any old job will do for someone who is disabled or whether he takes infinite care, as some of them do, to try and find the right job and adapt tools and environments to suit the particular circumstances of the disabled worker. Ever since I became interested in the subject I have seen a consistent improvement in the attitude of employers. Taken generally, their attitude has become consistently more helpful. I sometimes feel that it might be useful if a study could be made of successful attempts on the part of employers to fit work to the functionally remaining capacities of disabled people—attempts which have completely eliminated the effects of disability on the disabled workers' productivity.

In this connection, a most important matter is that of training, which the right hon. Member for Blyth (Mr. A. Robens) and other hon. Members have mentioned, because a great many of us know of men and women who, merely because of their disability and subsequent training, have eventually found themselves in much more satisfactory jobs than they had before they were disabled. That is a great example of the need for training the disabled and the immense potentialities that they still have if properly trained.

I was pleased to hear the references made by the hon. Member for Whitehaven (Mr. Symonds) to the value of voluntary service. Not only in the Government training centres but in the training colleges—with one of which the right hon. Gentleman and I have the pleasure of being connected—training of very great value is being undertaken. I listened with a sympathetic ear to the plea of the right hon. Member for Southwark (Mr. Isaacs) for more money in this respect. I do not think that he would expect me to answer him tonight, but I can tell him that his plea did not fall on deaf ears; the ears were only too ready to hear some of the things he said.

The third category of disabled, which is much in our minds tonight, comprises those who, for some reason or other, find their rate of production so slowed down that they have to work either temporarily or permanently under sheltered conditions. There are about 15,000 of these people, including about 4,000 who are at present unemployed. We are only too glad to hear from the right hon. Member for Southwark that over the years many of these people have graduated from Remploy and other sheltered industry into open industry, doing work on level terms with able-bodied people.

Lastly—certainly not to be lost sight of, but probably not a subject for debate tonight—are those so badly disabled as not to be in the employment field. The consideration mentioned by the right hon. Member for Blyth in respect of the earnings of the home-bound being allowed to rise to a higher level before they diminish other benefits is a question for some of my right hon. Friends. I will see that it is brought to their notice. The needs of these people, which are very great, are recognised both by the Government and by local authorities, who have taken great steps to try to meet them.

The right hon. Member for Blyth and other hon. Members mentioned the need to follow up the Report of the Piercy Committee—to see that the recommendations of the Committee are implemented and to watch over the progress of the service for the disabled. I am delighted to see here the hon. Member for Rossendale (Mr. Anthony Greenwood). since he and I had the pleasure of serving on the Piercy Committee. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, there is a standing committee on the rehabilitation and settlement of disabled persons which meets regularly and has issued three reports. It has been sitting under the able chairmanship of Dame Mary Smieton.

In my opinion this is the body, together with the National Advisory Council on the Employment of the Disabled, which can keep a continuous watch on the affairs of the disabled, and I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that I am in the closest touch with these committees. Any recommendation of the Piercy Committee which the right hon. Gentleman thinks is being lost sight of will come within the purview of both those bodies, and will be examined on the Floor of the House.

Regarding the unemployment of disabled generally, the present figure of Section I, those eligible for open industry, is 51,000, and that of Section II, those needing sheltered employment, is 4,000—a total of 55,000—against a total register of 715,000. I think I ought to make the point that the register has fallen in the last five years as was mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman, from nearly 850,000 to just over 700,000. Therefore, there is a smaller field for the placing work of the Ministry.

Lookng at the figures for disabled unemployment over the last ten years one finds considerable fluctuations which are not always possible to explain by the general employment situation. In June, 1949, the figure was 63,000. In June, 1951, it fell to 44,000. It rose again to 53,000 two years later and in June, 1955, it went down to 36,000 which was its lowest point. Last year it rose again, and in January of this year it was up to 63,000. I am glad to say that in the five months between January and June it has fallen to 55,000. There has been a decrease in each month of this year, but I will be frank with the Committee and say that while unemployment generally is lower than last year, unemployment among the disabled is higher all over the country except in the London and South-Eastern Region.

I feared that when the unemployment figure was rising the disabled would be among the first to suffer from the recession, but, in fact, the increase in the disabled unemployed was proportionately much smaller than the general increase. From January, 1958, to January, 1959, while the able-bodied unemployed figure increased by 60 per cent. the disabled figure increased by 28 per cent. Part of the reason for that is the quota scheme. I also think that part of the credit must be given to the improved outlook of employers because over the years the employers of disabled workers have become much more conscious of the competence of these people and are reluctant to discharge them.

My conclusion, which I think is borne out by the facts, is that, in general, disabled workers hold on to jobs more tenaciously than do able-bodied workers. On the other hand, when unemployment is falling the exact opposite seems to be true. It is more difficult then for a disabled person to recapture a job or find a new job than for an able-bodied person. This is partly because able-bodied people are more mobile, both geographically and industrially. Certainly in recent months, while the unemployment figure generally has fallen by 36 per cent. the disabled unemployed figure has fallen by only 13 per cent.

There is also a difference in the length of time taken by disabled persons who have lost their jobs to regain them. Two-fifths of the able-bodied who are unemployed have been out of work for less than six weeks. Only one-fifth of the disabled have been out of work for less than six weeks, four-fifths have been out of work for longer. Age is an important factor. Half of the disabled unemployed are over 50 and about 30 per cent. of the able-bodied are over 50, so that it is difficult for the D.R.O.s.—who have been complimented very often in this debate—to place older men and women who are disabled when younger able-bodied men and women are in competition with them. But I am confident that as the economy expands and vacancies increase, the employment situation generally will become easier, and I hope that the disabled who are at present unemployed will share in that general benefit.

The right hon. Gentleman mentioned some facts about the quota, and said that the percentage of disabled employed by Government Departments had fallen from 5·5 to 4·7 per cent. I think that is true, and one main cause of it, as he well knows, is that a great many of the 1914–18 war pensioners were employed in Government Departments, and a great many of them have retired in the last few years. That is the greatest single cause for the reduction in the percentage.

The right hon. Gentleman was also entirely right in saying that the overall average percentage employed by employers who have quota obligations has fallen, although it is still above the specific obligation of 3 per cent. I will, therefore, consider his suggestion about more frequent inspections to see whether there are not employers who are under the quota. On this matter we are advised from time to time by the National Advisory Council for the Disabled, and its advice is that it is not so much more frequent inspections that are needed as for the Department to return to its annual inquiry on quota obligations. For a time, when employment was very good, we dispensed with the annual inquiry and held one every two years, but, as my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham (Mr. Carr) asked, we have now returned to the annual inquiry, and we believe it will give us more of the information that we ought to have.

I should like to say something about the Section II disabled. These figures also follow the recent trend, but there is considerably less fluctuation, for the very obvious reason that most Section II disabled are employed in sheltered workshops and are, therefore, not so subject as the others to the ordinary uncertainties of unemployment. Here the average figures of the unemployed in Section II, requiring sheltered employment dropped every year in the last ten years, without exception, up to the time when they reached their lowest level in 1956–57 of 3,670. There was a small rise in June last year and in January of this year the figure was up to 4,250, but in June of this year, I am glad to say, it was down again to 4.160.

I should like to say frankly to the Committee that some of these 4,160 are, in my opinion, very unlikely to find work because, while there are more than 3,000 in areas which are served by existing Remploy factories or other sheltered workshops, there are, as we have been reminded several times today, a number, probably over 1,000, who are remote from such possibilities of sheltered employment. I understand that Remploy capacity could be increased by about 1,000 if the trading position and the work available allowed. There will, however, be a considerable number of these 4,000 Section II disabled whom it will be very difficult to help by Remploy, or other sheltered industries, because some happen to be so far away from them and because a great number of others are unsuitable for the work that happens to be available in their own locality. This problem of remoteness suggests the need for a greater number of smaller workshops.

Up to fairly recently it was very difficult for the Government to offer capital help, but I should like to tell the Committee now that the Government would be willing at the present time to consider suitable schemes for capital expenditure where the need is clearly established. Therefore, the hope for the disabled unemployed lies, first, in ordinary industry for all those who can work in it, and, secondly, in the provision of adequate sheltered employment facilities not only by the workshops for the blind but in other workshops and in Remploy.

Remploy has been much discussed tonight. It is important to examine the ways in which the Government might be able to help Remploy and other sheltered workshops to try to do the job for which they were created. My hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham, when he was Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour back in March, 1956, announced for Remploy his five-year plan which was to run from 1956 to 1961. The Government promised £1 million in capital expenditure for that time and up to 2½ million a year—I humbly say to the right hon. Member for Southwark (Mr. Isaacs) that his arithmetic was exactly right—to meet the net trading deficit. Both those sums would be subject to adjustment for inflation.

As was pointed out by the right hon. Member for Southwark, sales have increased during the past year, but at the same time the company has had much higher costs to contend with, in the way of wages, rents, rates, and so on, which have swallowed up the gains that it hoped to make from increased production. Partly because the total sales of Remploy have increased, and partly because Government contracts have decreased—they have been moving in opposite directions—the Government's percentage of total contracts is much lower than it was in 1955. Some hon. Members have pointed to this fact and have deplored it. I deplore it too, but I do not think it is wholly undesirable. There are certainly bright patches in the picture. One of them is the great credit which ought to be reflected on the directors of Remploy in developing other markets.

It is unlikely in the future that the Government's share of the total contracts will be as great as it was in the past. Nevertheless, it is important to examine the ways in which we might increase our orders. We must first get clear what function Remploy and other sheltered workshops should perform.

This is a matter on which several hon. Members have given their views tonight, with most of which I think I agree. Remploy and other sheltered workshops were never expected, as the right hon. Gentleman rightly said, to make profits, and the Government were always ready from the start to stand behind them in support. The hon. Member for Padding-ton, North expressed what is in the minds of most of us when he suggested—I am not quoting his actual words but giving the sentiment of them—that to spend money on giving men and women useful work is a far more desirable social objective than giving them allowances to live their lives in idleness. With that sentiment we should probably all agree.

My hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham expressed the view—I hope the Committee does not feel that the two views are incompatible—that it was important that Remploy and other sheltered workshops should be plainly recognisable as commercial concerns. If they were not so recognisable I am convinced that they would soon become very little different from welfare centres. The effect of that upon those working there would be extremely pernicious. It would have a demoralising effect on the many excellent people in Remploy to know that the firm for which they work was not in competition at all with other industries.

Secondly, and this is most important, the present flow from Remploy to open industry, which the right hon. Gentleman mentioned, would, if Remploy became completely uncommercial, soon be reduced to a mere trickle. That would be a very serious result. Therefore it is essential that losses should be kept to a reasonable figure. I think it also essential that the competitive conditions, even if they are cushioned, should in some way be preserved. This limits the expansion of sheltered industry and also rather circumscribes the action which the Government can take. Against this background, I should like to examine some ways in which Remploy might be helped to expand.

Before I come to these, there are the sponsorship schemes, which were mentioned by the hon. Member for Paddington, North. There are ten of them at the moment employing 400 workers and soon there will be two more. There are possibilities of others being arranged. We take the most encouraging view of them because in many cases they contribute to a regular flow of work for Remploy with no sales or distribution costs. I think the directors of Remploy feel it would be unwise, however, to put all their eggs into the sponsorship basket because this might make them too vulnerable to fluctuations in the level of trading activity.

The first matter which, no doubt, would help Remploy and other priority suppliers would be a widening of the field of Government work available. It is for this purpose—in fact, I think this is one of the main services that it might render—that the standing Committee, of the priority suppliers, on the one side, and purchasing departments on the other largely exists. It is very much an information-exchanging body. It was never expected that this body itself would lead to a vast increase in contracts for the priority suppliers, but I am sure it can perform a most useful function in the sense of acquainting each side with what the other side can do, and I hope it will have an effect in widening the amount of work available.

Another suggestion made by the hon. Member for Whitehaven was that in some fields priority suppliers should be given exclusive rights of supply for certain selected items. This suggestion was recently made in another place and the difficulties were explained by my noble Friend, Lord Dundee. I certainly should not reject it as a possible solution. In fact, it has been followed very largely in the case of the supply of stump socks, but, if we build too much hope on it, we are likely to be disappointed because this particular method is unlikely to have a very significant effect in increasing orders from priority suppliers.

The hon. Member for Paddington, North mentioned the question of the fair price and wanted me to comment on it. There is sometimes a slight misunderstanding about the fair price, as I think the hon. Member knows well. One sense in which the phrase is used is the assessment a Department makes of what the lowest tender would be if tenders were asked for. In cases where tenders are not asked for, it might fix what it thinks is a reasonable price for the product. There is another sense in which the phrase is used. That is in fixing a price to include wages, materials and an appropriate allowance for overheads. If then the purchasing Department said that was a fair price, Remploy and the other priority suppliers would feel they bad a much greater chance of acquiring the contract. In other words, the Departments under this scheme should pay to priority suppliers whatever costs they might incur in making the goods.

There are various objections to that. First, as the hon. Member pointed out, purchasing Departments have to buy in the cheapest market. Secondly, there is the objection that the Departments would certainly feel that by the use of their limited funds they were subsiding a particular group of suppliers. The third objection is what Parliament might feel in seeing money which was voted for one purpose being used for another. Perhaps the greatest disadvantage and difficulty is the lack of incentive to priority suppliers to keep down their costs and the absence, as I tried to stress a moment ago, of the stimulus of competition.

The hon. Member for Paddington, North apparently wishes to intervene. I might anticipate him if I say a word about a variation of the fair price which does not exclude competition. It is suggested that sometimes, when Departments are buying, the lowest tender put in is unrealistic and is put in by someone who wants the job almost at any price. It is suggested that such tenders are not fair tenders for Remploy and other sheltered industries with the inevitable disadvantages which they have to compete against.

It has been suggested that it might be fair to allow a percentage addition to the lowest tender in the case of priority suppliers. This suggestion, unlike the fair price proper, has the merit of preserving some form of competition, while it offsets some of the handicaps which are suffered by priority suppliers. On the other hand, it still violates the obligation which I think ought to be felt by any Government Department to obtain supplies as cheaply as it can. However one looks at it, it is a departure from the strict doctrine of competition. It is. moreover, a subsidy, and many people feel that if we are to have subsidies, these should be openly admitted and administered.