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First Schedule. — (Table to Be Substituted in Part I of Second Schedule to Industrial Injuries Act.)

Orders of the Day — National Insurance Bill – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 19th November 1957.

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Photo of Mr Hilary Marquand Mr Hilary Marquand , Middlesbrough East 12:00 am, 19th November 1957

I beg to move, in page 6, line 11, to leave out "8d." and to insert "7d.".

Photo of Sir William Anstruther-Gray Sir William Anstruther-Gray , Berwickshire and East Lothian

I think it would be for the convenience of the Committee if we took all the Amendments to the Schedule together.

Photo of Mr Hilary Marquand Mr Hilary Marquand , Middlesbrough East

I agree, Mr. Hynd. They all apply to the same subject, namely, the extent to which employees' contributions are proposed to be raised by the Bill in regard to the Industrial Injuries Scheme.

We had a long discussion—for an hour or so—on the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," and I feel that as the Committee has already had this long discussion on the matter I need only move the Amendment. I hope that we can thereby, quite quickly, come to a decision upon it so that whichever way the decision goes it will be unnecessary to have separate Divisions on the other Amendments.

We listened attentively to what the Joint Parliamentary Secretary had to say about this matter. We fully recognise the principles upon which the Industrial Injuries Fund is established. Because the State subvents the Fund to a reasonable proportion we recognise that the contributions made both by employers and employees ought to be sufficient to pay the benefits not only immediately but over a period of years. But we were not completely satisfied with the Joint Parliamentary Secretary's argument that the large increases now proposed—from 5d. to 8d., and so on—are really necessary. They still seem to us to be rather too large, and we are not convinced that it is necessary at this time to go so far in building up the resources of the Fund.

When we compare the contributions now asked for with those which were asked for in 1946, we see that they represent an increase of 100 per cent., whereas the basic benefit is increased by only 80 per cent. over the 1946 level. It is a good increase, and we are not complaining about it, but we do not see why the contributions should be increased quite so much. I need say no more. I expressed my views in the earlier discussion, as did many other hon. Members. We now want to register our feeling about the matter in the Division Lobbies.

9.0 p.m.

Photo of Hon. Richard Wood Hon. Richard Wood , Bridlington

The four Amendments which we are now discussing, if taken with those which are shortly to be moved to increase the benefits, illustrate some of the financial difficulties into which we shall all be led if we entrust our affairs to another Socialist Administration.

The right hon. Gentleman has been commendably brief, and I do not want to retrace all the ground which was covered yesterday in the debate on the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," but I repeat that in his recent Report the Government Actuary has pointed out that the new rates of contribution—which the Amendments suggest should be lowered—represent those amounts which would be sufficient to ensure the solvency of the Fund. They are rates designed not only to cover the deficiency pointed out in 1954, but also to cover the new liabilities which have been placed upon the Fund by the Acts passed since 1954. They are also intended to pay for the new benefits. This Amendment and the following Amendments suggest against the whole weight of the Government Actuary's Report that, in fact, more benefits could be obtained for less.

Sometimes this Socialist theory seems to dazzle the electorate, but here the theory of trying to get more benefits for less comes most uncomfortably against the economic facts of life. I hope that hon. Members will accept that it is not possible to buy, as is intended in this

series of Amendments, one-third better benefits for one-sixth less cost. On the specific proposals to reduce the workers' contribution by 1d. a week. I would remind the Committee again about what was said in 1945 by the right hon. Member for Llanelly (Mr. J. Griffiths) when contributions from employers and employees had been made to differ. The right hon. Gentleman gave the undertaking that they would be brought together again. The proposal of the right hon. Member for Middlesbrough, East (Mr. Marquand) is exactly the opposite. He wishes to pull the contributions further apart. In fact, these Amendments would double the existing gap.

The proposal made yesterday by the right hon. Gentleman that the worker might pay 7d. and the employer 10d. would not only double the gap, but treble it. Unless we juggle the contribution to divide the extra sixpenny contribution into different proportions, and thus violate the principle enunciated by the right hon. Member for Llanelly, we are left with two alternatives; either we must follow the proposals in the Bill and have the contributions proposed in the First Schedule which, on the Government Actuary's testimony, will be sufficient to ensure solvency, or we must accept the Amendment, which would not only destroy any hope of solvency of the Fund in the future, but would, for that very reason, make necessary at a later date a far larger increase in the contribution than is proposed in the Bill. Therefore, I must ask the Committee to reject the Amendment.

Question put, That "8d." stand part of the Schedule:—

The Committee divided: Ayes 245, Noes 203.

Division No. 9.]AYES[9.2 p.m.
Agnew, Sir PeterBennett, Dr. ReginaldButler, Rt. Hn. R. A. (Saffron Walden)
Aitken, W. T.Bevins, J. R. (Toxteth)Campbell, Sir David
Alpert, C. J. M.Bidgood, J. C.Carr, Robert
Amery, Julian (Preston, N.)Biggs-Davison, J. A.Channon, Sir Henry
Amory, Rt. Hn. Heathcoat (Tiverton)Birch, Rt. Hon. NigelChichester-Clark, R.
Armstrong, C. W.Bishop, F. P.Clarke, Brig. Terence (Portsmth, W.)
Ashton, H.Black, C. W.Cole, Norman
Atkins, H. E.Bossom, Sir AlfredCooke, Robert
Baldock, Lt.-Cmdr. J. M.Bowen, E. R. (Cardigan)Corfield, Capt. F. V.
Baldwin, A. E.Boyd-Carpenter, Rt. Hon. J. A.Craddock, Beresford (Spelthorne)
Balniel, LordBoyle, Sir EdwardCrosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.
Barber, AnthonyBraine, B. R.Crowder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood)
Barlow, Sir JohnBraithwaite, Sir Albert (Harrow, W.)Cunningham, Knox
Barter, JohnBromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W. H.Currie, G. B. H.
Baxter, Sir BeverleyBrooman-White, R. C.Dance, J. C. G.
Bell, Philip (Bolton, E.)Browne, J. Nixon (Craigton)Davidson, Viscountess
Bell, Ronald (Bucks, S.)Burden, F. F. A.Deedes, W. F.
Bennett, F. M. (Torquay)Butcher, Sir HerbertDigby, Simon Wingfield
Dodds-Parker, A. D.Irvine, Bryant Cadman (Rye)Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. W. D.
Donaldson, Cmdr. C. E. McA.Jennings, J. C. (Burton)Orr, Cap[...]. L. P. S.
du Cann, E. D. L.Jennings, Sir Roland (Hallam)Orr-Ewing, Charles Ian (Hendon, N.)
Duncan, Sir JamesJohnson, Dr. Donald (Carlisle)Osborne, C.
Duthie, W. S.Johnson, Eric (Blackley)Page, R. G.
Eden, J. B. (Bournemouth, West)Johnson, Howard (Kemptown)Pannell, N. A. (Kirkdale)
Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E. (Kelvingrove)Joynson-Hicks, Hon. Sir LancelotPartridge, E.
Elliott, R. W. (N'castle upon Tyne, N.)Kaberry, D.Peyton, J. W. W.
Emmet, Hon. Mrs. EvelynKerby, Capt. H. B.Pickthorn, K. W. M.
Errington, Sir EricKerr, Sir HamiltonPike, Miss Mervyn
Farey-Jones, F. W.Kershaw, J. A.Pilkington, Capt. R. A
Fell, A.Kimball, M.Pitt, Miss E. M.
Finlay, GraemeKirk, P. M.Pott, H. P.
Fisher, NigelLagden, G. W.Powell, J. Enoch
Forrest, G.Lambert, Hon. G.Price, David (Eastleigh)
Fort, R.Lambton, ViscountPrior-Palmer, Brig. O. L.
Fraser, Sir Ian (M'cmbe & Lonsdale)Lancaster, Col. C. G.Rawlinson, Peter
Freeth, DenzilLangford-Holt, J. A.Redmayne, M.
Gammans, LadyLeather, E. H. C.Rees-Davies, W. R
Garner-Evans, E. H.Leavey, J. A.Renton, D. L. M.
Gibson-Watt, D.Leburn, W. G.Roberts, Sir Peter (Heeley)
Glover, D.Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.Robson Brown, Sir William
Glyn, Col. Richard H.Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)Roper, Sir Harold
Godber, J. B.Lindsay, Hon. James (Devon, N.)Ropner, Col. Sir Leonard
Gomme-Duncan, Col. Sir AlanLindsay, Martin (Solihull)Russell, R. S.
Goodhart, PhilipLinstead, Sir H. N.Scott-Miller, Cmdr. R.
Gower, H. R.Llewellyn, D. T.Shepherd, William
Graham, Sir FergusLloyd, Maj. Sir Guy (Renfrew, E.)Simon, J. E. S. (Middlesbrough, W.)
Grant, W. (Woodside)Lloyd, Rt. Hon. Selwyn (Wirral)Spearman, Sir Alexander
Grant-Ferris, Wg Cdr. R. (Nantwich)Lucas, P. B. (Brentford & Chiswick)Spence, H. R. (Aberdeen, W.)
Green, A.Lucas-Tooth, Sir HughStanley, Capt. Hon. Richard
Gresham Cooke, R.McAdden, S. J.Stevens, Geoffrey
Grimond, J.Macdonald, Sir PeterSteward, Harold (Stockport, S.)
Grimston, Sir Robert (Westbury)Mackeson, Brig, Sir HarrySteward, Sir William (Woolwich, W.)
Grosvenor, Lt.-Col. R. G.McKibbin, AlanStoddart-Scott, Col. Sir Malcolm
Gurden, HaroldMackie, J. H. (Galloway)Storey, S.
Hall, John (Wycombe)McLaughlin, Mrs. P.Stuart, Rt. Hon. James (Moray)
Hare, Rt. Hon. J. H.McLean, Neil (Inverness)Studholme, Sir Henry
Harris, Frederic (Croydon, N.W.)Macleod, Rt. Hn. Iain (Enfield, W.)Summers, Sir Spencer
Harris, Reader (Heston)MacLeod, John (Ross & Cromarty)Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)
Harrison, A. B. C. (Maldon)Macmillan, Rt. Hn. Harold (Bromley)Teeling, W.
Harvey, John (Walthamstow, E.)Macmillan, Maurice (Halifax)Thomas, Leslie (Canterbury)
Heald, Rt. Hon. Sir LionelMacpherson, Niall (Dumfries)Thomas, P. J. M. (Conway)
Heath, Rt. Hon. E. R. G.Maddan, MartinThompson, Lt.-Cdr. R. (Croydon, S.)
Henderson-Stewart, Sir JamesMaitland, Cdr. J. F. W. (Horncastle)Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.
Hicks-Beach, Maj. W. W.Maitland, Hon. Patrick (Lanark)Tilney, John (Wavertree)
Hill, Rt. Hon. Charles (Luton)Markham, Major Sir FrankTurner, H. F. L.
Hill, Mrs. E. (Wythenshawe)Marshall, DouglasTurton, Rt. Hon. R. H.
Hill, John (S. Norfolk)Mathew, R.Vaughan-Morgan, J. K.
Hirst, GeoffreyMaude, AngusVickers, Miss Joan
Hobson, John (Warwick & Leam'gt'n)Mawby, R. L.Wade, D. W.
Holland-Martin, C. J.Medlicott, Sir FrankWakefield, Sir Wavell (St. M'lebone)
Holt, A. F.Milligan, Rt. Hon. W. R.Wall, Major Patrick
Hornby, R. P.Moore, Sir ThomasWard, Rt. Hon. C. R. (Worcester)
Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.Morrison, John (Salisbury)Webbe, Sir H.
Horobin, Sir IanMott-Radclyffe, Sir CharlesWhitelaw, W. S. I.
Horsbrugh, Rt. Hon. Dame FlorenceNabarro, G. D. N.Williams, R. Dudley (Exeter)
Hughes Hallett, Vice-Admiral J.Nairn, D. L. S.Wills, G. (Bridgwater)
Hughes-Young, M. H. C.Heave, AireyWood, Hon. R.
Hurd, A. R.Nicholls, HarmarWoollam, John Victor
Hutchison, Sir Ian Clark (E'b'gh, W.)Nicholson, Godfrey (Farnham)Yates, William (The Wrekin)
Hutchison, Michael Clark (E'b'gh, S.)Nicolson, N. (B'n'm'th, E. & Chr'ch)
Hyde, MontgomeryNugent, G. R. H.TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Hylton-Foster, Rt. Hon. Sir HarryOakshott, H. D.Colonel J. H. Harrison and
Iremonger, T. L.O'Neill, Hn. Phelim (Co. Antrim, N.)Mr. Bryan.
NOES
Ainsley, J. W.Boyd, T. C.Collins, V. J. (Shoreditch & Finsbury)
Albu, A. H.Braddock, Mrs. ElizabethCorbet, Mrs. Freda
Allaun, Frank (Salford, E.)Brockway, A. F.Craddock, George (Bradford, S.)
Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)Brown, Thomas (Ince)Cronin, J. D.
Awbery, S. S.Burke, W. A.Crossman, R. H. S.
Bacon, Miss AliceBurton, Miss F. E.Cullen, Mrs. A.
Balfour, A.Butler, Herbert (Hackney, C.)Dalton, Rt. Hon. H.
Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)
Bence, C. R. (Dunbartonshire, E.)Callaghan, L. J.Davies, Stephen (Merthyr)
Benson, G.Castle, Mrs. B. A.Deer, G.
Beswick, FrankChampion, A. J.Delargy, H. J.
Blackburn, F.Chapman, W. D.Diamond, John
Blyton, W. R.Clunie, J.Dodds, N. N.
Boardman, H.Coldrick, W.Dye, S.
Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.Collick, P. H. (Birkenhead)Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.
Edelman, M.Lindgren, G. S.Reeves, J.
Edwards, Rt. Hon. John (Brighouse)Lipton, MarcusReid, William
Edwards, Rt. Hon. Ness (Caerphilly)Mahon, Dr. J. DicksonRhodes, H.
Edwards, W. J. (Stepney)MacColl, J. E.Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Fernyhough, E.MacDermot, NiallRoberts, Goronwy (Caernarvon)
Fienburgh, W.McGhee, H. G.Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)
Finch, H. J.McInnes, J.Ross, William
Fletcher, EricMcKay, John (Wallsend)Royle, C.
Foot, D. M.McLeavy, FrankShort, E. W.
Fraser, Thomas (Hamilton)MacMillan, M. K. (Western Isles)Shurmer, P. L. E.
Gibson, C. W.MacPherson, Malcolm (Stirling)Silverman, Julius (Aston)
Gooch, E. G.Mahon, SimonSilverman, Sydney (Nelson)
Grenfell, Rt. Hon. D. R.Mainwaring, W. H.Skeffington, A. M.
Grey, C. F.Mallalieu, E. L. (Brigg)Slater, Mrs. H. (Stoke, N.)
Griffiths, David (Rother Valley)Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfd, E.)Slater, J. (Sedgefield)
Griffiths, William (Exchange)Mann, Mrs. JeanSnow, J. W.
Hale, LeslieMarquand, Rt. Hon. H. A.Sparks, J. A.
Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley)Mason, RoySteele, T.
Hamilton, W. W.Mellish, R. J.Stewart, Michael (Fulham)
Hannan, W.Mitchison, G. R.Stonehouse, John
Harrison, J. (Nottingham, N.)Monslow, W.Stones, W. (Consett)
Hastings, S.Moody, A. S.Strachey, Rt. Hon. J.
Hayman, F. H.Morris, Percy (Swansea, W.)Summerskill, Rt. Hon. E.
Healey, DenisMort, D. L.Sylvester, G. O.
Herbison, Miss M.Moss, R.Taylor, Bernard (Mansfield)
Hobson, C. R. (Keighley)Moyle, A.Taylor, John (West Lothian)
Holman, P.Mulley, F. W.Thomas, George (Cardiff)
Holmes, HoraceNeal, Harold (Bolsover)Thomas, Iorwerth (Rhondda, W.)
Howell, Charles (Perry Barr)Noel-Baker, Francis (Swindon)Thornton, E.
Howell, Denis (All Saints)Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. (Derby, S.)Timmons, J.
Hoy, J. H.Oliver, G. H.Tomney, F.
Hubbard, T. F.Oram, A. E.Viant, S. P.
Hughes, Emrys (S. Ayrshire)Orbach, M.Watkins, T. E.
Hunter, A. E.Oswald, T.Wells, Percy (Faversham)
Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)Owen, W. J.Wheeldon, W. E.
Irving, Sydney (Dartford)Paling, Rt. Hon. W. (Dearne Valley)White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)
Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.Palmer, A. M. F.White, Henry (Derbyshire, N.E.)
Jay, Rt. Hon. D. P. T.Pannell, Charles (Leeds, W.)Wilkins, W. A.
Jeger, George (Goole)Pargiter, G. A.Willey, Frederick
Johnson, James (Rugby)Parker, J.Williams, David (Neath)
Johnston, Douglas (Paisley)Paton, JohnWilliams, Rev. Llywelyn (Ab'tillery)
Jones, David (The Hartlepools)Peart, T. F.Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)
Jones, Elwyn (W. Ham, S.)Pentland, N.Williams, W. R. (Openshaw)
Jones, Jack (Rotherham)Popplewell, E.Willis, Eustace (Edinburgh, E.)
Jones, J. Idwal (Wrexham)Prentice, R. E.Winterbottom, Richard
Jones, T. W. (Merioneth)Price, J. T. (Westhoughton)Woodburn, Rt. Hon. A.
Kenyon, C.Price, Philips (Gloucestershire, W.)Woof, R. E.
Key, Rt. Hon. C. W.Probert, A. R.Yates, V. (Ladywood)
King, Dr. H. M.Proctor, W. T.Younger, Rt. Hon. K.
Lawson, G. M.Pryde, D. J.Zilliacus, K.
Ledger, R. J.Pursey, Cmdr. H.
Lee, Frederick (Newton)Randall, H. E.TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Lee, Miss Jennie (Cannock)Rankin, JohnMr. Pearson and Mr. Simmons.
Lever, Harold (Cheetham)Redhead, E. C.

Schedule agreed to.