Orders of the Day — National Health Service

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 18 May 1953.

Alert me about debates like this

Photo of Mr James Hoy Mr James Hoy , Edinburgh Leith 12:00, 18 May 1953

That is not quite what the right hon. Gentleman said during his speech, when he appeared to think that a general standard could be applied to the hospital.

I do not want to go into this in great detail, but I would direct the Minister's attention and that of the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Joint Undersecretary of State for Scotland to the opinions of the heads of their Departments. In both cases those heads made it absolutely clear that merely to try to lay down a general standard of staffing for all hospitals was quite impossible; and in fact each one would have to be visited individually before the right staffing arrangements and numbers could be arrived at.

I believe that to be true, and the Scottish Department of Health have already appointed a woman to inquire into the domestic staffing arrangements of the hospitals in Scotland. When the Minister replies to the debate, perhaps he might like to say something of what has happened. Perhaps the Ministry of Health can tell us if they are also conducting a similar inquiry, because it seems to me that if all these inquiries are taking place now there can be no good reason for having another inquiry. Indeed, we were given an assurance at the Public Accounts Committee last year by both Departments that these investigations were taking place, and the Departments expected to have some evidence and some results to bring forward when they came before the Public Accounts Committee this year.

Something was said at the Public Accounts Committee about the costing system. It ought to be said that the Scottish Department has taken the lead on costing. I understand from the evidence submitted, and from what I have heard, that the Scottish Department of Health has made great headway in this field. If that has been the case, the Scottish Department will have to explain why it wants another inquiry. It seems to me that there will be a great deal of overlapping and time wasting if the Departments already have the information at hand and all that is required is administrative action to put matters right.

A great deal has been said about waste in the Service, and all too frequently the blame has been placed on the subscriber to National Insurance, the ordinary man and woman in the street. Far too frequently people have described the enormous cost of the National Health Service. I have to say in his absence that the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) fell into exactly the same trap and conveyed the impression today that these millions of pounds were raised by the weekly contributions of the insured persons. He is quite wrong, of course. Only a small proportion of the weekly contribution goes to the National Health Service and the remaining costs come from the national Exchequer.

Bad cases have been magnified. Bad news makes good news for the daily Press and is given the headlines of publicity. Many of the things that have happened, involving dentists or opticians, have been magnified. It is true that there has been some exploitation, but I remember that the Departments themselves were able to take action to prevent this waste of public money.

In 1950, when the Public Accounts Committee were examining these accounts, we discovered that those who were supplied with surgical boots, belts and trusses through the National Health Service scheme were exploited. The Comptroller and Auditor-General said in his report that the charges were grossly excessive, so much so that the Department returned the tenders and then received back new tenders with the prices slashed for exactly the same goods. Many who did not want to see it become a success were exploiting the Service.

For the reasons that we have enumerated, I do not see why at this stage another committee of inquiry is necessary. There are certainly great differences in the working of the scheme in England and in Scotland and, on the basis of the reports of the Scottish Health Service, it would be difficult for any Minister from the Scottish Office to justify any change. I should much prefer if the Minister paid some little attention to administration. I have heard that there have been changes even in the budgets of the hospitals in Scotland. Because of certain limitations imposed by the Minister on expenditure, cuts have been made in hospital food supplies in Scotland.

I hope that the Government will never carry the economy campaign to the extent that we experienced in the past when domestic servants in hospitals were expected to work long hours for nothing, or to the extent that we shall have to employ nurses to do domestic work. If there is one way to destroy the National Health Service, it is that way. If the Government must tamper with the Service, I hope that they will be careful not to destroy a service which is the pride and admiration of the civilised world.