National Health Service Bill (Time-Table)

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 23 April 1952.

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Photo of Mr Derek Walker-Smith Mr Derek Walker-Smith , Hertford 12:00, 23 April 1952

I am coming to that, if the hon. Member will allow me, in a moment; but logically, before coming to how much time was left, I was going to consider what had taken place prior to the Guillotine. Let us start with that comparison. I am not going to weary the House by considering both Bills. I will take only the Town and Country Planning Bill, because that was the Committee on which I sat. As the hon. Member for Devonport (Mr. Foot) may know, that was a large and complex Measure of 120 Clauses and 11 Schedules as against this comparatively simple Measure of eight Clauses and no Schedules. The then Government saw fit to apply the Guillotine procedure to that Bill after it had had only four sittings in Standing Committee upstairs, four sittings of a total length of about 10 hours during which they had got through five Clauses, that is to say, an average of two hours per Clause.

The then Minister of Town and Country Planning, who was in charge for the then Government, made no allegation of obstruction or filibustering such as we rightly make in regard to this Measure, although he did say he was disappointed with the progress. In answer to the hon. Member for Devonport, that was the stage at which his right hon. Friend saw fit to introduce the Guillotine procedure. The hon. Member did not say that that was a denial of democracy, although, of course, he might have said so had he learned at that early stage to point out the errors of his right hon. Friends, as afterwards he did.

This Bill, by way of contrast, has had 21½ hours on one-third of a Clause. So, against two hours per Clause, there was an average of 65 hours spent on this Measure before the Leader of the House sees fit to Guillotine the debate. The hon. Member for Devonport asks how much time was left? This, of course, introduces the argument which was really the only argument of the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South, who said that in fixing the time for the remainder of the Clauses one could not have regard to the time spent on the previous Clauses. I say that is an unsound argument. We have to regard the Bill as a whole bcause the time of Parliament, like all time in nature, is neccessarily limited.

Further, the argument of the right hon. Member for Lewisham, South, would suggest this—was my right hon. Friend to assume in advance that hon. Members opposite would filibuster and require an average of 65 hours to deal with a single Clause? Was he to come to this House and propose an allocation of time Motion from the start? Even now, in fixing the time, what guarantee have we on this side of the House who have witnessed the obstructionist activities of hon. Members opposite that if they were given more time it would be well spent in the processes of democracy? We have no guarantee at all. Therefore, I say that the right way to approach this, in answer to the hon. Member for Devonport, whose attention has strayed—