National Health Service Bill (Time-Table)

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 23 April 1952.

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Photo of Major Geoffrey Bing Major Geoffrey Bing , Hornchurch 12:00, 23 April 1952

Further to that point of order. I think it would probably be for the convenience of the House if I were to call your attention, Mr. Speaker, and the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to the precedents which deal with this matter. In my submission to you, there are three quite different propositions which are involved in what has just been said by my right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, South (Mr. H. Morrison).

The first is that any Motion not in accordance with a Standing Order requiries, first, a Motion that that Standing Order be annulled. The second, which is quite a different proposition and has nothing whatever to do with the Standing Orders of the House, is that when any Motion of any sort is before the House, and which contains two propositions about which it is possible, or about which hon. Members think it might be possible, to vote one way in regard to one and another way in regard to the other—and in that we must always take into account the Liberal Party—then in those circumstances the Motion should be divided. Thirdly, even if that were not in accordance with the existing practice of the House, I put it to you that there have recently been certain changes in the practice of the House which make it very desirable that this Motion should be divided, irrespective of the fact whether such a Motion has or has not been divided before.

Perhaps I may very shortly refer you, Mr. Speaker, to the precedents which generally are quoted in any arguments in connection with this matter. The original Ruling of Mr. Speaker on this subject is a very ancient one, given as long ago as 1842. It arose out of a Motion to deal with the number of counsel who might be heard before a Standing Committee. On this Motion being brought up, it was pointed out that there was a Standing Order of the House which prescribed the number of counsel and Mr. Speaker thought it was necessary, first, to rescind the Resolution of the House to which the right hon. Baronet had referred before the Motion of the hon. Member could be put from the Chair. There was considerable discussion about whether, in fact, the Motion did or did not affect the Standing Order, and in the end the Motion was discussed. That principle has always been cited on the basis that if, in fact, a Resolution goes against the Standing Order in its entirety, then the Standing Order must be dealt with first.

It is quite true that in other Guillotine Motions there has always been a reference to the suspension of Standing Orders. These references, which are traditional in Guillotine Motions, are conditional upon and incidental to the Motion, for the Motion itself would be out of order if the Standing Order were still in existence. Then, in that case, the Standing Order must be first dealt with, and this comes out very clearly indeed in a Ruling of Mr. Speaker in 1912. At that time the Conservative Party submitted a point of order to a degree of length which I should never think of taking, and they called a great number of speakers of far greater legal weight than I am—