Orders of the Day — Livestock Rearing Bill

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 11 December 1950.

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Photo of Mr William Snadden Mr William Snadden , Kinross and West Perthshire 12:00, 11 December 1950

I think everyone will agree that we have had a most satisfying debate, containing many constructive speeches, on this small but extremely important Bill. I am sorry if, by rising exactly at nine o'clock, I am preventing anyone else from speaking, but in winding up for this side of the House I must leave the Minister himself some time to reply to the debate.

I do not think it would be very far wrong if we were to say that the two major problems that face British agriculture today are these: first, how to reduce the costs of production in face of ever-rising expenditure while at the same time maintaining wages fixed under Statute and, secondly, how best we can most economically exploit or develop the reserves of production still available in our country. That is how I see it. This Bill seems to me to be an attempt to deal with the second of those two problems, because it is generally agreed, I think, that now the only substantial reserves of production still left to us in this country are the enormous hill areas and what are called the "marginal" lands of our country.

The Bill sets about the task in three main ways. I am missing out the smaller provisions about cattle grids, and so on. It extends the 1946 Act for a further period of five years; it extends the period during which the hill sheep and cattle subsidies will be paid; and it brings in an entirely new principle in extending to what are called the livestock rearing lands the same facilities as at present are applied to hill farming. I think I have listened to almost all the speeches that have been made today, and I would say that this debate has, quite naturally, tended to focus attention on the entirely new provision made in this most excellent Bill, the newest part of the general plan—the extension of the principles of the Hill Farming Act to what are called "livestock rearing lands" in upland areas.

However, before coming to that I should like to say a word or two about the working of Clause 6—the working of the hill cattle scheme which is to be extended by this Bill for a further period of five years—and to make a couple of suggestions in order to render it, in my opinion, more effective. I should have said before that I am interested in this Bill. I could not be more interested in it from all angles. However, I hope that it will not be felt that what I am going to suggest will be to the benefit of my pocket. Actually, it will not.

In my opinion, the best single thing that has been done for the hills is the hill cattle scheme. It has proved to be what I would call the self-starter or prime mover in the cycle of production of increasing the numbers of store cattle from the hills which we so much require at a time of meat shortage, while at the same time it has been possible to improve our sheep grazing. In my own experience, in a certain part of Perthshire it has been possible, not altogether under the scheme but largely because of it, actually to double the stock rearing capacity of 30,000 acres in terms of sheep.

Anyone who realises that must also realise that this scheme does something that no other scheme does. It performs the dual task of producing the raw materials in the form of store cattle from the hills, while increasing the stock-carrying capacity for sheep at the same time; and, most important of all, it reduces costs. Because of the larger number of head the farm can carry the cost per ewe goes down, and that is of benefit to the consumer.

Unfortunately, in Scotland, and, it may be—although I do not speak with any close knowledge—in some parts of England and Wales as well, this excellent scheme is being prevented from attaining its maximum result because of the prohibitive cost of the transport of vital supplies of fodder to keep the hill herds ticking over—what is about the only expression one can use—in the worst of the winter months. It is just as wrong to assume that hill cattle can be kept out on a hill all the year round as it is to assume that they cannot. Hill cattle can be kept out on the hill all the year round, at very high altitudes, if they are given just a little keep from January until the end of April. In the enterprise in which I am interested, I have found. from looking at the figures, that a breeding cow, wholly out-wintered in the hills of Scotland, will eat 2 cwt. of oat straw and 6 cwt. of hay during the four vital winter months.

The point to note is that in these vast areas fodder cannot normally be produced; fodder must be brought there, and the farmers must be able to buy it at reasonable prices. I am not asking for any rebate because of the high cost of hay due to a wet season, or anything like that, but I do ask that note should be taken of the prohibitive cost of the transport of fodder from the lowlands to these established hill herds. It is within my own knowledge that quite a few—1 will not say an enormous number, because that would be exaggerating—of the hill herds of Scotland established under this scheme are now being either reduced or dispersed. I suggest that that is the reverse of what we are aiming at, and this Bill will collapse if note is not taken of that fact.

The hill cattle scheme is really part of the whole structure. It runs counter to our policy to see that happening, and it may wreck the scheme. I suggest that the Government should very seriously consider, not a flat rate for transport for everybody—personally, I hope that in some cases they will do without it—but in approved cases, vetted by the county agricultural committee, where the transport of fodder to maintain a hill herd is essential, assistance should be given to meet these enormous charges; that is to say, where fodder cannot normally be produced on the farm.

Before leaving that point, I must say that I was sorry to hear the right hon. Gentleman say that he would not consider extending the scope of the scheme to the new part of the Bill. I shall not go into the question of what is marginal land and what is not. The Minister said he was not going to apply the hill cattle scheme to stock rearing land in the uplands. I ask him to remember that if people who are already indebted to the banks, at any rate in Scotland, to the tune of £16 million—this is taken from "The Scotsman" and I assume it to be an accurate figure—are to be called upon to put still more capital into capital equipment, if farmers are almost being persuaded to leave the milk churn and to come into the fat stock rearing sphere, they will ask "What is the incentive?"

I suggest that it would be putting this Bill on a proper basis if the right hon. Gentleman were at any rate to consider how he could provide reasonable incentives. Some hon. Members have pointed to what has been spent in other parts of the globe, on groundnuts and what not. I should imagine that what would be needed under this Bill would be but a drop in the ocean compared with that.

This debate has centred on the newest phase of the Bill—the extension of the principles of the Hill Farming Act to livestock rearing land as defined in Clause 1 (3). A moment ago the Joint Under-Secretary of State said that this Bill had not to do with marginal land. Of course it has. Most of the upland rearing lands in this Bill are marginal land, and if I may say so, that remark exhibited a certain ignorance. I am not surprised that the Minister has rather shied off trying to define marginal land. Personally, I dislike the expression. The Economists are the only people who have found any definition at all, and I am bound to say that it does not satisfy anyone I know; and neither, I think, does it satisfy the economists if we were told the truth.

Another reason is this. Most of us have a picture in our mind's eye of what is a marginal farm. In Scotland, most of our marginal farms are upland farms, but not all of them, and they are predominantly stock-rearing farms—I do not want to talk entirely from the Scottish angle, because I want to refer to some of the points made by other hon. Members—that does not seem to be the case in England and Wales. From what hon. Members on both sides of the House have said, I am beginning to wonder whether the Minister has not jumped from the frying pan into the fire with regard to the definition in the Bill. I see trouble ahead when we come to discuss this Clause in Committee. For example, if altitude were to be the sole criterion—and I gather it is not—it would be wrong, because there are many upland farms not necessarily stationed at a high altitude.

Whatever definition is used in the Bill, so far as I can understand it we are going to Miss out huge chunks of what the majority of us in this House understand to be marginal land. I think that this requires some definition when the hon. Gentleman comes to answer the debate. What does he propose to do with the enormous areas of land that are left out of the Bill? Are we to have further legislation at some future time? If so, well and good; we would like to know. But the fact which must hit everybody, I think, is that huge chunks of what we all believe to be marginal land capable of cattle production in this country are not included in the Bill. We would like to have some further illustration of the extent of the area to be covered by it.

The hon. and galllant Member for Richmond, Yorks (Sir T. Dugdale) mentioned a point which is definitely an English point. I think I know what is in the minds of the hon. Members from England and Wales. It is the question of exclusion from grant aid under the Bill of farms where dairying is carried on to any considerable extent. There are many stock rearing farms of an upland nature engaged in milk production because of the emphasis on milk prices. I take it from what the right hon. Gentleman has said that a farm where milk is sold to the Milk Marketing Board will be excluded from grant aid under the Bill. Personally, I do not quarrel with that.

I think that many hon. Members have made a point in raising the question of dual-purpose cattle. Dual-purpose cattle must be retained on the upland farms. The last thing that we want is the wiping out of dual-purpose cattle because of milk emphasis. We have lost a lot of these herds because people have gone in directly for milk-producing herds. Can the Minister tell us whether these dual-purpose upland herds, maintained I understand in England and Wales, are to be excluded from the Bill? I should like also to raise a question which was raised by one of my hon. Friends about summer dairying. My recollection is that in some parts of England summer dairying is carried out on marginal farms where the milk is separated and the skimmed milk is fed to dual-purpose calves. It may be that if the Milk Marketing Board cannot be bothered to go up to high upland dairies to bring down a trivial amount of milk, these farms will go in for that sort of production. I should like to know whether these farms are to be included.

Then there is the important point about change of use which ought to be answered. If a farmer takes a grant under this Bill and complies with all the conditions, does that mean that never at any time can he make a change? We should like a reply to that. The Minister made it clear that approval of these schemes will need to be on a selective basis. I did not follow my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Angus, South (Captain Duncan) on this. I understood from the Minister's statement when he originally announced his intention to introduce this Bill, that a selective basis was to be applied. I do not quarrel with the idea, because I think we all want to be quite certain that public money is spent on an economic basis and goes in the right places.

It would be wrong to pour money down the drain on completely uneconomic holdings which can do no good to anyone. I can understand that point of view, but I am wondering how it will work out in practice. It cannot, surely, be an allocation of first come first served. I take it that it will be done by the agricultural executive committees and not by departmental officials. Perhaps we can also have this cleared up. Can the Minister tell us, for example, whether the size of the holding is to be taken into account, as under the Hill Farming Act, on the grounds that some farms are not economic units?

I agree that there is something to be said for such a decision, but if that is the yardstick, what is to be done in the case of the small farms that are left out? I have heard it suggested that the agricultural organisations have made certain proposals to the Government on this question. Has the Minister anything in mind in regard to the amalgamation of small uneconomic units into larger units, or has he in mind a programme of rural development into which these small units might be fitted to make them economic? I do not know whether the Minister can answer that question, which is a point worth mentioning.

Whatever is done, the agricultural executive committees seem to me to be up against a very difficult proposition in drawing the line. I sometimes think that the officials of these committees have a very hard job with some of these schemes. Here they will be in the position where many owners may be dissatisfied with their decision because their holding does not qualify, and if the money goes to the wrong place the taxpayer will be annoyed because it is being badly spent. For that reason, I emphasise what has been said about the need for uniformity.

In Scotland—and the same may be the case in England and in Wales—we have a survey of the marginal farms which has been made on a rather broad basis. Every farm has not been examined, but great areas have been examined on a broad basis, It seems to me that it would be a good idea, in Scotland at any rate—I do not know whether it is feasible in the case of England—to complete that classification of all farms, and then to let the occupiers and owners know whether or not they rank for a grant under the Bill. I do not think that would be an impossible task. It would remove a lot of discontent and prevent many questions in this House. If there is dissatisfaction, give them an independent tribunal to decide the matter.

Possibly the most important point made in this debate, by so many hon. Members that I can hardly remember them all, is the question of the comprehensive scheme under the Hill Farming Act. I have had some experience of how it works in Scotland, and I know that the Department of Agriculture have insisted that every scheme submitted under the Act must in every respect be comprehensive. There is a lot to be said in favour of that. One could argue that it is not much good building a cottage if the drainage and all the farm buildings and other equipment are neglected. So maybe behind this there is a good reason.

However, the comprehensive scheme has scared off a large number of people who otherwise would have taken advantage of the Act. High taxation, Death Duties and the demands for fresh capital in all directions today to finance an expansion programme of £450 million mean empty pockets. Empty pockets certainly make bad landlords, but empty pockets are not necessarily the fault of individuals these days. As has been said by other hon. Members, we do not want just big fellows with ample funds going in for these schemes. The man with a large capital is the one most likely to take advantage of the Bill and is the one most likely to look after his place in any case. We want to encourage the man who is tight for money, who possibly has not kept up his property as well as he might, to go in for even a moderate improvement scheme.

Taking up the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford and Stone (Mr. H. Fraser), I think the Minister should consider the question of the variation of grant. I take it that my hon. Friend means without changing the global sum?