Orders of the Day — Foreign Affairs

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 21 July 1949.

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Photo of Sir John Foster Sir John Foster , Northwich 12:00, 21 July 1949

We are not suggesting that. We are suggesting that the Russians would have appreciated, if our party had been in power, that it had no weak flank, no Left wing, which could blackmail the Foreign Secretary. That is what they would have appreciated. The difference in the attitude at Potsdam when the change-over occurred is very good proof of that.

But the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne seemed to think that there were people to deal with in Germany, that it only, apparently, needed Hitler to retire into the background and put up a dummy government and that then everything would have been all right. Has he forgotten who succeeded Hitler? And does he really think that unconditional surrender caused all that? It is quite possible that those actual words "unconditional surrender" would not have been chosen by a British Government, but the British Government of that time can bear no kind of blame for the conditions in Germany today.

It must be remembered that the words "unconditional surrender" were chosen by President Roosevelt, in order, I believe, to show to the Russians that we were not going to indulge in any backstairs intrigue with Hitler. They were always suspecting it, and the accusations after 1945 bear that out. I believe that President Roosevelt thought that if he used some tough words, it would show the Russians that there was no danger of our making separate negotiations with the Germans, and would also ensure that the reverse would not happen, either.

The unconditional surrender which we have heard about is a thing of the past; it is no alibi at all. The right hon. Gentleman should have the courage to deal with these problems or else say why they are so difficult, without trying to get an alibi from the past. What about the Morgenthau plan? What an alibi that is. I, personally, was very much against the Morgenthau plan. Since this is the day apparently for reminiscences—psychological warfare from the hon. Member for East Coventry (Mr. Crossman) and so on—let me give an experience of my own. I was sent over on a special mission by General Eisenhower, to argue, at a very low level, in Washington against the Morgenthau plan, but when I got there I found that it was unnecessary to argue against it because it had disappeared. The combined opposition of the State Department and my right hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) was sufficient to kill the Morgenthau plan before it had got into any kind of effect, so that is no alibi for failure to deal with the problems in Germany. The Foreign Secretary must really think again.

The centre of the Debate today has, I think, been the conviction of hon. Members on all sides of the House that Germany is probably the most important problem we have today. Hon. Members have touched on the question of the Middle East and the Far East, and I hope that when the Minister of State replies he will satisfy us by dealing with the questions which have been put to him. Too often, I am afraid, in foreign affairs Debates the Government do not vouchsafe the information required, which can legitimately be demanded by the Opposition and by those who support the Government. I shall come to the problem of Germany in a minute.

I would remind the Minister that most important questions have been asked by my hon. Friend the Member for North Blackpool (Mr. Low) about Greece. What is the situation in Greece, and what are His Majesty's Government doing to support the fight of the Greeks against the Communist forces? Does he think, and has he good hope to think, that the campaign this summer will end in a victory for the Greek forces under General Papagos? Is there any danger that it will end, as it ended last year, in the guerillas being driven underground in many places only to reappear in the winter? If there is any danger of the Greek guerillas bobbing up again, I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he does not think that that will be such a blow to Greek morale that the whole situation in Greece may well be in danger.

I would also remind the Minister that my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster (Mr. F. Maclean) asked what the position is in China. What is our position with regard to representation in China? My hon. Friend asked whether it might well be wise to have an ambassador on the Communist side, because there is always a need for somebody to represent our interests. The right hon. Gentleman will also remember that he has been asked questions about the Italian Colonies, and he was asked especially a series of most important questions by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Lewes (Major Beamish) about oil in the Middle East. Would he please answer those questions specifically?

I should like to add a question of my own. What is the position about the refinery in Haifa? Is it going to deliver oil in the near future, or does the right hon. Gentleman think that some kind of international guarantee is needed to see that the oil will not be used for warlike purposes? Will he answer that; and will he also tell us to what stage the financial negotiations in Jerusalem have reached with our representative there? What chance is there of getting the pensions paid by the Israelis, which are rightly a charge on them; and what is the position about the Israeli bank balances in this country? Which side will it fall—asset or liability? Shall we in the end owe some money, or will they owe us some money?

I should also like him to tell us what is the position about the Holy Places in Jerusalem. Where do we stand there now? If we do not take every step possible to see that the religious sentiment of the world is paid respect to as regards the Holy Places, we cannot object with sincerity or with such conviction to what is going on in Eastern Europe about the persecution of the Church. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman will satisfy us about that. It is a question I feel he will be able to answer satisfactorily, but I think it would help if he made a statement of policy about it, remembering that many of the Holy Places are in Arab hands, which is one of the factors that has to be taken into consideration.

The main subject of the Debate, as I said, has been Germany. My right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley pointed out that the Foreign Secretary has a wonderful opportunity, with the coming meeting of the Council of Europe, to admit Germany to the Council. In that connection, many Members on both sides have drawn attention to the difficulties of Government policy in Germany at the present moment. A lot was said about dismantling. In my view the arguments are fairly evenly balanced at this moment. On the one side we have said for four years that we are going to dismantle, and on the other side we have reduced the number as a result of the Conference in Brussels, as a result of the Humphreys Committee and as a result of the Herter Committee. There is a good deal to be said for the contention, having taken a view, we ought to stick to what we say, but I think that it is out-weighed by the argument against it, that dismantling at this stage will do no good. It is purely a psychological matter. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) said, these few factories, if they were capable of producing munitions in the distant future, would not matter one way or the other. But it is becoming an issue owing to the delay in carrying out the policy of dismantling.

It is the same vice of delay which is responsible for the evil effect of the policy of trying General von Manstein. In my view, it is a perfectly good argument which the right hon. Gentleman used, that it seems unjust to kill the corporals and privates who carried out the alleged orders of the general. That is a difficulty he has got into by this delay. He talks about the delay as if he had no control over it. It is "they," like the National Dock Board. He is the Government, or part of it, so why did he not say that the trial must come on earlier? Or is it some mystical body we cannot chase in the House of Commons that is responsible?

It is like the restitution of Jewish property in Germany. Do Members realise that four years after the end of the war no single piece of Jewish property has been restored in Germany? The same difficulty is going to arise there. It was only just that a statute of restitution should be passed immediately on our going into Germany, and I actually had one in draft when I left the Army, but four years later, when honest buyers have perhaps got hold of what was former Jewish property and Germany is trying to get her economy on an economic basis, restitution will cause hardship, and we shall get the same thing happening as with dismantling and General Von Manstein, namely, that it is too late to do anything because it will cause injustice.

There is, on the one side, the principle of abstract justice, that German plants which cause war should be dismantled, that German generals responsible for war crimes should be punished and Jewish property restored; on the other side, there is the dislocation and injustice which the delay of four years will cause. The Foreign Secretary has his alibis. It is, he says, all the fault of the Morgenthau plan, all the fault of unconditional surrender. I feel sure the Committee will not acquit the right hon. Gentleman of the mistakes he has made in Germany, and about which he is so touchy, on the ground of these two illusory alibis.

What can be done constructively? The constructive part is the Council of Europe. The hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Mr. Lang) made an eloquent speech in support of the movement of which he has been a member for so long. Tonight, there is an opportunity for the Minister of State to give a call to Europe to show that the British Government have had a change of heart. In life, it is a good thing to be cautious when there are so many committees and persons to be looked after, and it is difficult to go forward

The Foreign Secretary, in dealing with the Council of Europe, was oppressed with the difficulties. "We cannot discusss defence at Strasbourg," he said, "we cannot discuss politics, and we certainly cannot discuss economics because the whole situation is so delicate." The right hon. Gentleman must get away from that: he must look forward. He must say, "Here is a budding movement, full of idealism and perhaps, in some respects, unpractical, which can be worked out by full and frank discussion at Strasbourg and by the support of all the Governments concerned." It will fail if one of the chief Governments concerned does not give it their full support and if the leaders of the British delegation do not go to Strasbourg with the conviction and certainty that good will come out of their deliberations. If they do so, they will give a lead to the peoples of Europe.

We shall find that my right hon. Friend the Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) has started a movement in which the hope of peace, the hope of Western Union, lies. We shall find that it will not be necessary to resort to what I would call the blackmailing tactics of the hon. Member for East Coventry (Mr. Crossman). I am, of course, not in any way speaking personally, but it is blackmail to say, "We cannot defend Europe." That is a most mischievous and dangerous idea. It is dangerous because it is encouraging the Russians to believe that Europe is free for them to take, and mischievous because it is using one of the arguments that is used in America to oppose Marshall Aid. I am sure it will not be necessary to resort to these tactics, and I am sure that neither the Foreign Secretary nor the Minister of State would wish to resort to them. I hope the Minister will deal with the speech of the hon. Member for East Coventry and give a categorical denial to the statement that it is impossible for us to defend Europe, that we must throw our hand in and leave it to the Americans to take the whole burden.

In conclusion, back again to Germany. It is at Strasbourg that there will be an opportunity to help the Germans to join the Western democratic State. I should like to get some factual information about the elections. They are on 14th August, but I was under the impression that the results would not be known until the beginning of September. If they are known earlier all the better, and perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would tell us as to that.

The right hon. Gentleman has said that it has been decided that at Strasbourg O.E.E.C. will be discussed, but that it is too early for any decision to be come to about Germany. That will be a most regrettable thing especially as we have the Bonn Constitution working freely, and elections taking place in Germany. This is the time to rally the Germans to the European family of nations. It is by that alone that the right hon. Gentleman can undo the harm done by his procrastination in such matters as dismantling, the German generals and, as the hon. Member for Gravesend (Sir R. Acland) said, the rectification of frontiers. I would agree with the Foreign Secretary if he said that those matters are comparatively unimportant provided that we make a clear call to the Germans to come to Strasbourg. They would still be on trial and under control, but they will be given the opportunity, under less control and occupation to play their part in the defence of Europe and the establishment of a lasting peace.