Defence

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 3 March 1949.

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Photo of Wing Commander Edward Shackleton Wing Commander Edward Shackleton , Preston 12:00, 3 March 1949

I can only say that the hon. Member certainly gave that unfortunate impression, but I am very glad that he has cleared it up because it is the sort of thing which is not fitting in a Debate of this kind.

The hon. Member, like hon. Members on the Liberal benches—who, I am sorry to say, have disappeared, leaving us in some difficulty when we come to deal with Liberal defence policy—attacked the Government on the subject of secrecy. It is, of course, difficult to judge the Liberal Party defence record since it took place long before most of the hon. Members in this House were in a position to judge. One of their more notable achievements was, of course, the sacking of the right hon. Member for Woodford (Mr. Churchill) from the Admiralty at a time when he had given some rather signal service to this country at the beginning of the First World War. On this subject of secrecy, I wish to take up straightaway the point made by the hon. Member for Blackpool. He has suggested that it would be possible to give details of the number of divisions and squadrons. I am not competent to discuss the value of that information from the point of view of the Army, but I can say that to give the number of squadrons, or even to give the establishment of squadrons, in the Air Force would be of no value to this House in assessing the efficiency of our defences, and I am sure that any hon. Member must agree that the same thing would naturally apply in relation to the Army. At any rate, with regard to the Air Force, I can only say that the establishment of the number of squadrons aimed at has very little significance. Availability, serviceability and other matters are the real test.

Before the war, one could look up in many books the first line strength of various nations in the air. But that was absolutely without any significance when it came to the actual battlefield. Therefore, unless the Government are in a position to give a great deal more information than just a list of divisions, or a list of squadrons, I do not see that it can be of any use except, possibly, to a would-be enemy who will be able to use it as a basis for subsequent intelligence work. There is no need for me to go into the methods employed in that direction, but certain types of information which, by themselves. convey very little, are essential in the build-up of that work.

Nonetheless, it is obviously a very real difficulty which this House is facing today in discussing Defence Estimates. It is a problem to which I, for one, cannot see the solution. I am prepared to accept from the Government that they consider their decision wiser and I do not doubt for one moment that they have been advised by the Service chiefs in the matter. At the same time, I would ask them at least to argue a little with the Service chiefs before accepting the request for secrecy. It is, however, a thing which I feel is of no great significance to this Debate because even if a little more information were given I do not believe it would add very much to the Debate.

The Conservative Party have moved an Amendment which is designed to attack the Government's handling of defence matters. It is clear from the type of broadside which has been delivered in support of that Amendment that they are quite unable to sustain their case. They may argue that they are firing their broadsides blindfolded or without the aid of radar. It is obvious to every hon. Member in the House that they are not in a position to make a really effective attack on the Government's policy. I suggest it is perhaps unfortunate that they have not brought the right hon. Member for Woodford to sustain them in this attack. We do not wish again to draw attention too strongly to his absence on other notable occasions, such as the Debate on the Estimates for the Health Service a short time ago, but I do suggest that if he is their great expert, it would have been a wise thing for him to come and make the case, because it is quite obvious that with the artillery which the Opposition are using today the case will fail lamentably.

There are points of criticism which could be made on the detail of the Government's policy. I feel, as many hon. Members feel, that the Ministry of Defence must play a more positive role than it has been playing. I realise that there are the greatest difficulties in front of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Defence; nevertheless I believe that one obvious job the Ministry should perform is not only co-ordination at the higher levels of the Services, not only co-ordination of staffs and so on, but co-ordination at the lower level. There are certain arms of the Services which will be continually engaged in association with other Services, and it was one of our greatest weaknesses during the war that too often those branches of the Services, which time and again have to co-operate—I do not mean just on the beachheads and in particular types of operation but in a continuous series of operations—were abysmally ignorant of what their opposite numbers in the other Services were about and of their outlook.

I suggest that the Minister might well ask some of his advisers, preferably even some of his scientists, to look into that problem. I suggest, as I have suggested previously, that there is a need for the Ministry of Defence to turn active research on to the whole subject of coordination and not just employ the staff officers who meet to reach the lowest common denominator of agreement. The Ministry should turn people on to the problem and regard it as a special problem. They should use methods of operational research which my right hon. Friend mentioned as being introduced in the last two years of the war. That, however, is a point on which I can correct him; they were used for several years, long before 1944, with great success.

I have another anxiety, and this is an anxiety which I am sure is shared by hon. Members on this side of the House, although I do not know whether hon. Mmebers opposite will share it. It is the vast, and I may say growing, size of the Royal Navy. We realise that at present it is necessary to maintain certain forces which could be used in the near future, but why should we want 12 capital ships, of which eight are in commission, with the number increasing, even though many of them are in the nature of fleet carriers. I find it very difficult to understand that, in the light of the strategic appreciation of the position with regard to a possible enemy, which appreciation I am sure my right hon. Friend has made. This is a point which, I feel, calls for an extraordinary amount of strength of character on the part of my right hon. Friend. Indeed, I feel it is almost too much to ask of any man to face up to the entrenched power of the Admiralty. Nevertheless, it has to be done. I suggest it is a job which my right hon. Friend, with all his experience of Admirals, must now have learned how to do.

I do not want to labour the point too much, but it is a fact that we are spending a very large sum on the Navy and it is my belief that a larger part of that sum might go to the long-term development which hon. Members on this side of the House, I am sure, are convinced is the right approach to the problems of defence. I realise, and we all must realise, that it is esential to try to achieve some form of operational readiness. Nevertheless, I have sufficient hope, and perhaps too much optimism, that these forces are not likely to be required in the near future and that the really important energy should go into long-term development. There is the added advantage in placing that money, say, to atomic energy development or guided missile development that one day, if, God willing, it is not required for war purposes, it can have very great significance for peaceful purposes. I hope, therefore, that the Government will continue to persevere in their devotion to the long-term approach, not only from the point of view of our defensive needs but from the point of view of the community.

It will be clear that unless the Conservative Party can produce more effective arguments against the policy of the Government, then moving their Amendment is as valueless from the point of view of contributing to our defence as was their performance in a previous Debate to the Health Estimates.