Parliament Bill

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 10 December 1947.

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Photo of Mr Herbert Morrison Mr Herbert Morrison , Lewisham East 12:00, 10 December 1947

Although we often disagree with the view expressed by the right hon. and Yearned Gentleman the Member for West Derby (Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe), we always listen to him with pleasure, because he exudes an atmosphere of reasonableness and of argument, which is always worthy of consideration, even though it may not be acceptable to us. On this historic occasion—I hope it is that, and I will have something to say about that later—of parting with this Bill on the occasion of its Third Reading, we have listened to him with a good deal of pleasure. He has said that those who advocate change should prove the case for the change. It is not an unfair argument. I do not dispute it. It is the same as I have used—that the nationalisers should prove the case for nationalisation and the anti-nationalisers should prove that their way is better than the nationalisers'. It is a perfectly fair point for the right hon. and learned Gentleman to make.

With respect, however, we have really met the point. The onus was not upon us to prove that during the present Parliament their Lordships had been positively mischievous to such an extent that it was essential to do something about it. That is not the basis upon which the case for this Bill rests. The case rests upon the belief of His Majesty's Government that we have the right, by suitable legislation, to make such provisions as will enable us to carry out in this Parliament the policy upon which we were elected by the people in 1945. That is all that there is to it. I do not want to argue whether or not their Lordships have behaved reasonably well up to now. I could pick holes here and there and make some criticisms, as I have done during earlier stages of this Bill. But I certainly would not argue that they have gone wildly beyond the limits of what is reasonable—not at all. Things might have been much worse. Indeed, I say quite freely now, and I have said it before, that I have a considerable respect for their Lordships' Chamber as a revising element of the whole Parliamentary institution.

I say that looking apprehensively at my hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Emrys Hughes) who, having already elevated me to a dukedom will, if I am not careful, elevate me to the status of a Prince of the Blood Royal. It is the case that the House of Lords is a very good revising Chamber and that from time to time they have good and informed Debates on matters of public interest. My first Parliamentary experience as a Minister of the Crown was in connection with the Road Traffic Act of 1930. That taught me so much about Standing Committee procedure upstairs that it has had its result in the Standing Orders of this House during this Parliament. Having worked for four months with that Committee upstairs, I know what silly, foolish obstruction went on. On that occasion the purpose was not even obstruction of the Bill before that Committee, but obstruction of the next one. Having had that experience, I then watched my noble Friend, Earl Russell, who was my Parliamentary Secretary, in the other place. Amendments were put down and Earl Russell would get up and say, more or less, "This will not do," and prove it in about six sentences. In practically every case the Amendments were, by leave, withdrawn; whereas in the Commons Committee upstairs talk would go on for an hour, or even three or four.

I am not grumbling at the House of Commons. It is in the nature of this House that it does these little things; but I am bound to say, that this being my first visit to the House of Lords on a Bill which I knew, and which was, indeed, my child, I was tempted to make the most flattering observations about the expedition and the business-like character of their Lordships, compared with the procedure of the House of Commons on that Standing Committee. I ask the hon. Member for South Ayrshire to forgive me. I am one of those people who cannot but tell the objective truth in me even though it leads to his implied rebuke.

The point now before the House is not whether the other place have done enough to warrant some legislation being introduced. We said at the election that we would not tolerate obstruction by the House of Lords. It really is a foolish idea, an innocent idea, that we have to wait to be obstructed. If we wait long enough to be obstructed, we shall wait so long that the essentials of the rest of the legislative work of this Parliament may be completely ruined. The argument is that we must wait until that has happened and then start dealing with their Lordships' House. That is not the way to conduct battle, whether political or otherwise. The way to conduct battle is to see trouble coming and to avoid it, to prevent it. That is the policy of His Majesty's Government in this, as in all other respects.

How often the Opposition have said to us, "Why didn't you see this trouble coming?" even when they never dreamt it was coming themselves. How often have they said, "You ought to have seen this fatality coming along"—whether it was dollars or the bad weather of last winter. I do not in any case admit their charges. Why is it then on this occasion when, in our profound political knowledge and wisdom, we do see trouble coming that they now say, "That is a very naughty thing?" The Opposition say, "Why look for trouble that has not occurred? Why not ignore these possibilities and go along in blissful and peaceful ignorance?" No, Sir, this is a pod Government. This is a Government that looks ahead and sees the shape of things to come—even looks ahead and sees the shape of things that may be to come.

That is what this Bill is about. It is perfectly legitimate and proper. It is all within the electoral Mandate, absolutely respectable, constitutional, and above board. The right hon. and learned Gentleman, like others, has said that this Bill is a virtual reduction from two-Chamber to single-Chamber Government. That is a wild assertion, which I was surprised to hear from such a moderate Member of the Opposition. If it had come from the Leader of the Opposition, I would not have been a bit surprised, because there is nothing moderate about him. But I was really surprised that it should cc me from the right hon. and learned Gentleman. There are the two Sessions that the legislation must occupy. There is a minimum of 12 months, and the other safeguards. To call that reduction horn double to single-Chamber Government is really wrong. The Second Chamber will still be there, and I believe that it will still have useful work to do.

The right hon. and learned Gentleman said that the House of Lords should have ample opportunity and time to judge public opinion. That is why he objected to the limit of 12 months. He gave the illustration of the Transport Bill and said that it needed examination. I agree. That is a fair point. It was a Bill of substance, but, as a matter of fact, there were a lot of people ready to reject that Bill before ever it was seen—including the Conservative Party. Indeed, there were posters up all over the country before the Bill was introduced. There were posters hanging out of the tails of motor lorries which were driven upon the streets up and down the whole country. What did they say? "Kill this Bill," or "Stop the Transport Bill," and there was no Transport Bill at that stage. I am not complaining about the Conservative Party looking ahead; I wish they would do it a bit more, but they must not complain if we, too, look ahead. As a matter of fact, the Debate on the Transport Bill started quite a long time ago in "Let us Face the Future." It was continued in the King's Speech, and it was mentioned again when I made the announcement to the House about the industries which we were going to socialise and in that awful "dust-up" which I had with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Aldershot (Mr. Lyttelton). Consequently, although it may be said that this Bill limits the time of the veto period to one year, nevertheless, the Debate on that legislation often goes on much longer than that.

It has been argued by the right hon. and learned Gentleman and others that the House of Lords must have a proper and adequate opportunity in which it can judge what public opinion wishes. I will answer that perfectly frankly by saying that this Government and this party do not admit the right of their Lordships to judge what the public wishes from the angle of determining whether legislation may proceed or not. They have their rights as a revising Chamber, but I do not believe that their House is any more fit than this House—indeed, I think it is less fit than this House—to judge what the public wishes, and this Conservative argument about this great quality of their Lordships, which enables them to discern the true inwardness and meaning of public opinion, is really a cheeky claim that ought not to be made. This was the claim made during the progress of the Parliament Act, 1911, when Mr. Asquith had this argument put to him—that there was no barrier between the revolutionary Liberal Government and ruin. The argument that the Lords were, indeed, the true interpreters of public opinion was put to him, and Mr. Asquith gave the answer in language, perhaps a little longer but far better than anything I could have done, when he said—and this is worth listening to, because it is good, old-style Parliamentary oratory: This new-fangled Caesarism which converts the House of Lords into a kind of plebiscitary organ is one of the quaintest inventions of our time. Let us see what it is. I will try to put the theory as plausibly as I can against myself. The theory is that the people require to be protected against their own elected representatives especially—may I not say exclusively—when the majority of those representatives happen to belong to the Liberal Party. By whom is the protection to be afforded? In what quarter is it to be found? Here, the theory goes on. Providence has, as in so many ways, been exceptionally kind. It has supplied us with exactly the kind of thing we want for the purpose by an unforeseen and unforeseeable evolution, in our ancient House of Lords … It is true at first sight that, even to an uninstructed observer an assembly which is composed in a proportion, I suppose, of somewhere between twenty and ten to one of Members of a single political party, might not seem to be pre-eminently qualified to exercise a judicial or quasi-judicial function. But here again, Providence steps in, and it would seem that, either at birth or as the case may be upon creation, in the case of a peer who receives for the first time a Patent of Peerage there descends upon the favoured individual what I may call a kind of instinct of divination which enables him at all times thereafter to discern to a nicety—provided always a Liberal Government is in power—the occasions and the matters in regard to which the people's representatives are betraying the people's trust.—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd December, 1909, Vol. 13, c. 556–7.] I admit that Mr. Asquith has got me completely beaten in the brilliant and able expression and exposure of the whole arguments of the Conservative Party on this question of the Second Chamber; and, for quoting that passage, I deserve the vote of every true Member of the Liberal Party. It may be that the Liberal Chief Whip should consider whether he ought to move one Bench backwards, which I often think he ought to do, and it should be a warning to the hon. and learned Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Hopkin Morris) about what happened the other night when he met the Tory Party in his constituency.