– in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 11 August 1947.
Mr William Gallacher
, Fife Western
12:00,
11 August 1947
I should like to raise a matter of Privilege, Mr. Speaker. There was an incident on Thursday night as a consequence of which I had to leave the House. I waited until some hon. Members came out and asked, "Have I been suspended?" They said, "No." I went down to the Terrace and was writing one or two notes when an officer came and told me that he had to escort me off the premises. I said, "I did not know I had been suspended." He said, "I have my instructions from the Serjeant at Arms." He was very courteous and very kind, and I have been very many times escorted by police so that that did not bother me, but the question of Privilege seems to me to arise whether an hon. Member can be escorted off the premises when he has not been suspended.
Mr Douglas Clifton Brown
, Hexham
I was not in the Chair at the time, but the occupant of the Chair, I understand, ordered the hon. Member to withdraw from the precincts, and there was some little trouble so I gather. If that is so, the hon. Member must obey the order and leave, and there is no other way. The hon. Member received that order from the Chair and I am afraid he must obey it.
Mr Quintin Hogg
, Oxford
I was present throughout the entire incident to which the hon. Gentleman the Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) was a party, and I must say that it was really very difficult to understand what he had been ordered to do and whether he had been named or suspended. I understood the occupant of the Chair to ask him to leave the Chamber, which he did. Having heard all that took place myself, I must say that I am absolutely astonished to learn, having regard to what the occupant of the Chair said to the hon. Member, that he was thereafter asked to leave the precincts of the House. I really did not think that anything was said to him which would have led any hon. Member to understand that he was suspended.
Mr Ernest Thurtle
, Shoreditch
From my own experience may I suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that if an hon. Member is ordered to leave the Chamber by Mr. Speaker, that is, in effect, a technical suspension for 24 hours?
Mr William Gallacher
, Fife Western
I was not asked to leave the precincts. I was escorted off the premises.
Viscount Hinchingbrooke
, Dorset Southern
For the guidance of the House, and to assist hon. Members who are not correctly informed on Procedure, could you make it plain whether Mr. Deputy-Speaker has exactly the same powers as yourself, Sir, in this matter?
Mr Douglas Clifton Brown
, Hexham
Certainly, Mr. Deputy-Speaker is acting for me. The answer to the hon. Member for Shoreditch (Mr. Thurtle) is that if an hon. Member is suspended under Standing Order 19 it is for the remainder of that day's Sitting. That is the time during which the hon. Member has to withdraw, not 24 hours. It may be only one or two hours. I have a report on the matter—in fact I also read it in the newspapers—and I understand that the hon. Member was already leaving the Chamber, having thought that he had been ordered to withdraw, when the order to withdraw was, in fact, given. But the order to withdraw was given and, therefore, it stands.
Mr Quintin Hogg
, Oxford
Further to that point, and in particular relation to what the hon. Member for Shoreditch (Mr. Thurtle) has said, does an order to leave the House involve the hon. Member in being escorted from the precincts of the House as well? If it does, we might as well be told that it necessarily follows and, with special reference to what the hon. Member for Shoreditch has said, surely, it is a totally novel doctrine that the Chair has power to suspend. Suspension can only follow from a Motion moved by the Leader of the House and carried—if need be by a Division—and, surely, if we are to know where we stand in this matter we must have a little further guidance. I can honestly say that having listened to every word that was spoken, I had not the remotest idea that such a pain or penalty would befall the hon. Member for West Fife.
Mr Douglas Clifton Brown
, Hexham
I am sorry, but the Standing Orders are there. I have to obey them and Mr. Deputy-Speaker has to obey them.
Sir Arnold Gridley
, Stockport
I have here the copy of HANSARD which records the incident, and Mr. Deputy-Speaker is reported as having said:
I have to inform the House that I have to instruct the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) to leave the House, in view of the remarks he made."—[OFFICIAL REPORT. 7th August, 1947; Vol. 441, c. 1743–4.]
Mr Douglas Clifton Brown
, Hexham
I think that that is perfectly clear, and I do not see what more there is to be said.
Mr Robert Boothby
, Aberdeenshire and Kincardineshire Eastern
Surely, it is not possible to order an hon. Member to leave unless he is named by Mr. Speaker?
Mr Douglas Clifton Brown
, Hexham
A Member is named under Standing Order 17 and ordered to leave the House under Standing Order 19. Those are the Rules and I cannot get round them. The House can alter them if it wishes.
Mr Edward Fleming
, Manchester, Withington
Could it be made definitely clear whether when an hon. Member is ordered to withdraw from the House that means also that he must withdraw from the precincts?
Mr Douglas Clifton Brown
, Hexham
Yes, that is the Rule.
Mr William Gallacher
, Fife Western
I am satisfied now. If I had known I would have walked off the premises.
The Serjeant at Arms has two main areas of responsibility. First he has duties relating to the order and security of the House of Commons. He is responsible for maintaining order in the Chamber, Galleries, Committee Rooms and precincts of the House of Commons, and the control of access to them. By tradition the post is usually given to an ex-serviceman and the Serjeant at Arms is the only person in the House of Commons allowed to carry a sword. The Serjeant at Arms Department also has housekeeping duties which include the allocation and booking of accommodation for MPs, cleaning of the House and the supply of stationery, laundry and other stores. The office of Serjeant at Arms goes back to 1415 and the reign of Henry V when the Serjeant was responsible for carrying out the orders of the House of Commons, including making arrests. Today he performs several ceremonial duties that date back to the early days of the office. He carries the mace in the Speaker's Procession each day and also into the House of Lords during the State Opening of Parliament.
The Speaker is an MP who has been elected to act as Chairman during debates in the House of Commons. He or she is responsible for ensuring that the rules laid down by the House for the carrying out of its business are observed. It is the Speaker who calls MPs to speak, and maintains order in the House. He or she acts as the House's representative in its relations with outside bodies and the other elements of Parliament such as the Lords and the Monarch. The Speaker is also responsible for protecting the interests of minorities in the House. He or she must ensure that the holders of an opinion, however unpopular, are allowed to put across their view without undue obstruction. It is also the Speaker who reprimands, on behalf of the House, an MP brought to the Bar of the House. In the case of disobedience the Speaker can 'name' an MP which results in their suspension from the House for a period. The Speaker must be impartial in all matters. He or she is elected by MPs in the House of Commons but then ceases to be involved in party politics. All sides in the House rely on the Speaker's disinterest. Even after retirement a former Speaker will not take part in political issues. Taking on the office means losing close contact with old colleagues and keeping apart from all groups and interests, even avoiding using the House of Commons dining rooms or bars. The Speaker continues as a Member of Parliament dealing with constituent's letters and problems. By tradition other candidates from the major parties do not contest the Speaker's seat at a General Election. The Speakership dates back to 1377 when Sir Thomas Hungerford was appointed to the role. The title Speaker comes from the fact that the Speaker was the official spokesman of the House of Commons to the Monarch. In the early years of the office, several Speakers suffered violent deaths when they presented unwelcome news to the King. Further information can be obtained from factsheet M2 on the UK Parliament website.
The House of Commons votes by dividing. Those voting Aye (yes) to any proposition walk through the division lobby to the right of the Speaker and those voting no through the lobby to the left. In each of the lobbies there are desks occupied by Clerks who tick Members' names off division lists as they pass through. Then at the exit doors the Members are counted by two Members acting as tellers. The Speaker calls for a vote by announcing "Clear the Lobbies". In the House of Lords "Clear the Bar" is called. Division Bells ring throughout the building and the police direct all Strangers to leave the vicinity of the Members’ Lobby. They also walk through the public rooms of the House shouting "division". MPs have eight minutes to get to the Division Lobby before the doors are closed. Members make their way to the Chamber, where Whips are on hand to remind the uncertain which way, if any, their party is voting. Meanwhile the Clerks who will take the names of those voting have taken their place at the high tables with the alphabetical lists of MPs' names on which ticks are made to record the vote. When the tellers are ready the counting process begins - the recording of names by the Clerk and the counting of heads by the tellers. When both lobbies have been counted and the figures entered on a card this is given to the Speaker who reads the figures and announces "So the Ayes [or Noes] have it". In the House of Lords the process is the same except that the Lobbies are called the Contents Lobby and the Not Contents Lobby. Unlike many other legislatures, the House of Commons and the House of Lords have not adopted a mechanical or electronic means of voting. This was considered in 1998 but rejected. Divisions rarely take less than ten minutes and those where most Members are voting usually take about fifteen. Further information can be obtained from factsheet P9 at the UK Parliament site.
