Orders of the Day — TOWN AND COUNTRY PLANNING (Re-Committed) BILL

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at 12:00 am on 25 October 1944.

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Photo of Sir George Schuster Sir George Schuster , Walsall 12:00, 25 October 1944

I fully appreciate the point and I will try to keep within your Ruling, Mr. Williams. I certainly was addressing myself to the compensation part of the Bill and I hope that it is in Order to say—and that is the third point that I was going to make—that, from the arguments we have heard from the Treasury on this matter, one of the things that they have to take into account in settling compensation, is not merely the acquisition of property which will be required for carrying out town-planning schemes, but the settling of compensation for property taken over by the Government at various stages during the war.

The fact that we are dealing with two people has led to some of the trouble over this Measure. The arguments that were used were based on the fact that this is really fundamental to the question of compensation; that there is no real standard of values, and in support of that we were given an illustration of how values had slumped in towns like Ramsgate, or places on the East Coast, and how they fluctuated during the years 1941–42–43. I want to put it to the Committee that we are not considering those conditions now. Most of us are looking at it as a Town Planning Bill and to conditions as they will be in 1945, 1950 and so on. I suggest that those arguments really are not relevant.

Another point I want to make—perhaps I shall have a little more sympathy from the Benches opposite when I make it—is that the provision as it stands at present provides, quite apart from the 30 per cent., a fixed standard, which, I fear, is going to be a wrong standard in many cases. I think it is going to be a much too high standard. We all know cases of houses which, owing to changed conditions, have become unoccupied and are described as white elephant houses, such as houses in Belgrave Square, large basement houses, and so forth. I do not want to see the Government or public authorities committed to the taking over of houses of that kind on the basis of 1939 value. One can take that illustration, and show that the provisions of compensation are badly framed. We had the argument from the Treasury Bench, which is admitted, that a great many people will, under this provision, get more money than would be the case if current values were taken and we are asked to balance that against the cases of those who will get too little. That is the well-known swings and roundabouts argument, but it has been well said that the swings and roundabouts argument is all very well when the swings and roundabouts are in the ownership of the same individual, but when one owns the swings and another the roundabouts, the gains on the swings are going to be very little consolation to those who lose on the roundabouts. I put it to the Government that the argument which has been used, that some people will get too much and that that will balance those who get too little, is very unconvincing.

I object to the compensation Clauses on the ground, mentioned by so many speakers to-day, of the discrimination between the different types of ownership. I want to put a question to the right hon. and learned Gentleman on the matter. As far as I have been able to follow the argument the position as it exists has not been clearly stated. We talk as if it were quite simple to distinguish between owner and owner-occupier, and it has been said, when discussing this matter with certain ownership interests, that the landlord who owns a ground-rent on a 99 years lease, owns a money claim which could be bought and sold in the market like ordinary land. That is admitted, but do all hon. Members realise the position where you have a ground landlord whose property is let on a 99 years lease, where the tenant could claim as the owner-occupier, and would be entitled to the 30 per cent. compensation based on the value of his tenancy interest. In the case of a new building on a 99 years lease that would be practically 100 per cent. interest on the property.

2.30 p.m.

I would point out that one can qualify as an owner-occupier if one is holding a tenancy that has more than three years to run, so that the owner-occupier, is brought down to a very short term of tenancy. Supposing one has a tenancy of a fairly new building with five years to run, so that the reversion is of considerable value, in that case the 30 per cent. would be payable on that reduced interest of only five years, and all the rest would be blank and there would be a gap. There must be something wrong there. Last week, when the right hon. Gentleman was distinguishing between the position of a man who has lost a home and the man who has lost an investment, he was interrupted by the hon. Member for South Croydon (Sir H. Williams) who said, "In both cases, a home is destroyed." My right hon. Friend then said—