Orders of the Day — War Pensions

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at on 20 July 1943.

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Photo of Mr Frederick Bellenger Mr Frederick Bellenger , Bassetlaw

I think it is. If I had time, I should like to develop the point of the farcical position we have at present because a man or officer disabled in peace-time is not dealt with by the Ministry of Pensions but by the Service Departments. He comes under the Chelsea Commissioners if an Army man. The whole position of pensions is to a large extent confused, and I am going to urge the right hon. Gentleman to set up some committee to remove as many of these anomalies as still remain after the proposals of the White Paper have been put into effect.

As to parents' pensions, it has been argued that there should be a flat rate, presumably without prejudice to the other rate of pension which is now operated by my right hon. Friend on a means test. The Government say in the White Paper that they will consider the operation of parents' pensions on a more generous scale. The exact words are that the determination of need will be on a more generous scale. The House has never accepted any legislation the Government had brought before it in recent years affecting the determination of needs without first having a look at the regulations, even if they are only in draft, and we have been limited in our criticism by not being able to amend them but only to reject them if we felt so inclined. I ask the Minister of Pensions to let us into his confidence a little more and explain what he means by a more generous interpretation of the determination of need. On his answer to that question will to a large extent depend our attitude as to whether this proposal meets the case of those dependants, mothers or fathers, who are hard up. At present because of a rigid application of certain tests which are not disclosed to the public, we exclude many parents who would otherwise get a pension in respect of their children.

On the question of widows with no pension at all, neither war pensions, nor widows and old age pensions, I think the Ministry is going to raise a hornets' nest by throwing them on the mercy of charity. The Royal Patriotic Fund Corporation was originally instituted to form a fund from which they got their main resources by selling the kits of deceased soldiers. From time to time those funds have been added to by generous bequests from other sources. Can we at this stage of the war throw these widows on such charitable organisations, however well intentioned they may be? Government funds will be used to subsidise this patriotic charity, but the administration, as I understand it, is not in the Minister's hands, although public funds will be used to provide in part, pensions for these widows. The Minister might very well take them on his books and not throw them on to an outside body. The Government have thought more than once on these matters. There is still time for them to think again. It may be a small issue, but is it worth while raising consternation, as it undoubtedly has done in the minds of legionnaires? [Interruption.] The right hon. Gentleman was not at the meeting of the Metropolitan area last week, as the hon. and gallant Member for Lonsdale (Sir I. Fraser) was. If he had been there, he would have found that there was apprehension about this situation. It is bound to spread if the number of widows like these increases. We can well afford to put them under the Minister's charge.

I should like to say a few words about the children of disabled men. I disagree with the view that the children of a disabled man should get a smaller rate of allowance than the children of a fit active soldier or a deceased soldier. The Government have brought up the rate of allowances for children of deceased Servicemen to the same rate as the Service allowances, namely, 9s. 6d., 8s. 6d., and 7s. 6d. for the first, second and third and other children, and yet all they have done is to improve slightly the rate for the children of disabled men which are 7s. 6d. for the first and 6s. for each other child.

Can the Minister persuade the Committee that the child of a disabled Serviceman, who, presumably, cannot work or can work only to a lesser extent, should draw less than the child of a deceased soldier or an active Serviceman? The rates are worse in the treatment allowances of Servicemen because the non-entitled Serviceman's child is to receive only 5s. a week. Why all this discrimination? The rates should be levelled up to the 9s. 6d., 8s. 6d., and 7s. 6d. Under Defence Regulations the rates paid for children evacuated under the Government scheme are for children under five 8s. 6d., or, if it is the only child, 10s. 6d.; and it rises in stages from 10s. 6d. for children between five and ten to 17s. 6d. for youths of 17 or over. My right hon. Friend may say that that includes lodgings as well, but does not the child of a disabled Serviceman want lodgings and clothing and all the other necessities of life? I urge my right hon. Friend to reconsider the position and put a stop to the present anomalous situation. There is a point I would like to mention in passing. I am not sure whether it will be in Order. I would ask my right hon. Friend to do what he can with the Cabinet about the Serviceman who has been discharged and who, because he is not eligible for a pension, is not getting a badge. There is considerable feeling on this matter.

I come to the suggestion which, as I indicated in my earlier remarks, I wish to make to the Government. This Debate has come about because a widely-signed Motion by hon. Members calling upon the Government to set up a Select Committee to go into pensions matters, was put on the Order Paper. It is true that it almost synchronised with, or perhaps preceded, the Debate on pensions appeal tribunals, which brought the Government to realise at long last that they were in danger of suffering a defeat in the House if they did not pay attention to views expressed by hon. Members in all quarters. They were wise in taking time by the forelock because, although the House is very acquiescent in what the Government do or do not do, not even a Government presided over by the present Prime Minister can force the House into a situation like that which arose over war pensions without creating trouble. We ask for a Select Committee to go into these matters. We have not got that Committee. Therefore, I suggest that many of the matters which we are debating to-day will be left in the air, unless the Government change their views and grievances which have arisen out of war pensions legislation throughout this war will probably grow, as time goes on, into greater evils such as I have described. Certain anomalies, some of which I have indicated, are bound to occur and to cause a great deal of discontent, sometimes out of all proportion to their real value, and I think that in the Government's own interest, certainly in the country's interest, we ought to have some better method of forcing the Government to act than that which we have had to adopt on this occasion.

We do not want any more of this trial and error, hit and miss method, and we do not want to be forced into a position in which we have to hit the Government hard before we can get a White Paper like this. It would solve a lot of the Government's difficulties if they would set up a Committee of the House, or a wider Committee, to go into all the questions which arise from time to time, because many of them can easily be removed without a first-class Debate in the House and agitation outside. My right hon. Friend seems to be amused by that suggestion. He has a Central Advisory Committee which is supposed to advise him on all these matters. Either that Committee has not done its work properly in the past—and I hesitate to say that, as certain of my hon. Friends are on the Committee—or the Minister of Pensions has ignored their recommendations. That is a totally unsatisfactory situation and I urge the Government to find some system, other than the one they are operating, whereby the House have to bring to the urgent attention of the War Cabinet matters like those which we have been fighting on the Floor of the House, and thereby creating a situation in which the Government are forced to suffer the indignity of having to withdraw one of their Bills.