Orders of the Day — Old Age and Widows' Pensions.

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at on 17 June 1942.

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Photo of Mr Henry Willink Mr Henry Willink , Croydon North

I am glad my hon. Friend has made it clear that he is making no attack on a body of officials whose work I regard as admirable. He has also made the position clear on a second point, about which I desire to address the House. Because in certain positions, or under certain contracts, there are arrangements for pensions at the end of the time of service—and, of course, everybody knows that one of the attractions of the Civil Service, as opposed to commercial and professional life, is that at the end of the time there shall be deferred pay in the form of a pension—he suggests that, in connection with the old age pension, need shall have nothing to do with the matter. As I look at our social system, I see many other directions in which I should wish to spend money in preference to such an outpouring of wealth as that.

The figures have to a large extent been quoted, but my hon. Friend, I understand, suggests that 600,000 old age pensioners out of 3,500,000, that is, one-sixth of the whole number, who are in full-time work should none the less get exactly the same old age pension as those who are disabled. Is that a right principle? Is that equity? What my hon. Friend has suggested is a basis of the grossest inequity and unfairness. I would remind the House that not only the late Mr. Lansbury, of whom we were reminded, but also the hon. Member for Stoke (Mr. Ellis Smith), who in seconding the rejection of the Determination of Needs Bill took a strong view on this matter, said: We are now prepared to accept a personal means test. This is no trifling matter in amount, and the suggestion would result, as I have suggested to the House already, in gross inequity. My hon. Friend the Member for Gorbals was not accurate in his statement as to the range and scope of supplementary pensions. It is not sufficiently realised that this supplementary pension ranges from 2s. to 30s. a week and over. Does my hon. Friend suggest that people whose needs are so widely different should come under the universal system of one figure for all? Is that what is suggested as equitable? My hon. Friend, I am sure, knows many old people and knows the extraordinarily wide range of difference between people of the same age, over 70 may be, where some are fit to do work and others need looking after with great care and are quite incapable of ever working again.

In my submission to the House, this principle of confidential, delicate, discreet administration is the correct one to deal with these affairs. I have watched it in connection with the air raids. They are the same officials, I understand, and in my judgment these officers of the Assistance Board have acquired great experience in exercising discretion. The success of the supplementary pensions scheme, only two years old as it is, is shown by the enormous increase in the number of beneficiaries from 250,000 to 1,350,000. I am comparing the figures of those who used to receive supplementary benefit from the public assistance committees and those who now receive benefit under supplementary pensions. The success of the scheme, though so young, is proved and we should be very unwise indeed and any Member would be very unwise to support a suggestion that so successful a scheme should be tinkered with at this moment.

We all know that the whole range of our social service is being considered by Sir William Beveridge's Committee. I hope that that Committee will produce a co-ordinated scheme which, without any reduction in benefit—I hope with increase in benefit—will give at the same time great reductions in cost of administration. That may well be, for our system is gravely unco-ordinated. At the moment and apart altogether from that, if I were to mention a matter in which I would like to see improvement in the care of the old, it would be in the care of the old and the infirm. I hope that after the war there will be a great development of such houses as have been set up during the war for bombed-out old people who are not on public assistance but living on their supplementary pensions, where in medium sized houses and in homely circumstances groups of perhaps 20 to 30 old people can live out the evening of their lives in dignity and comfortable surroundings. I should like hon. Members to see the rest homes for such people which have been set up by the London County Council and the county boroughs of East and West Ham. If one large measure to relieve poverty could be brought in in the course of this war, I should have no hesitation whatever in adhering to a needs test as may be administered to-day in connection with old age pensions; I should choose a sphere where I believe poverty is more pressing still, the poverty of young parents with young children, poverty which would be relieved by a family allowance provision.