Clause 4. — (Postponement of laying before Parliament of statements of payments and receipts, etc.)

Part of Orders of the Day — War Damage (Amendment) Bill. – in the House of Commons at on 3 June 1942.

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Photo of Mr George Garro-Jones Mr George Garro-Jones , Aberdeen North

I beg to move, in page 3, line 21, after "copies", to insert: in so far as they relate to payments and receipts under Part II of the principal Act". There has been a fair amount of support for this Amendment, which stands in my name and in that of my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger), and since the Government have not expressed a final opinion on their attitude in regard to it, I hope the right hon. Gentleman will give his favourable consideration to the proposal which we make and which I shall briefly explain to the Committee. If Clause 4 were to pass as it stands, the Treasury would have power to withhold, on security grounds, publication of the figures showing payments and receipts under the three schemes set out in Parts I and II of the principal Act. The Amendment will not challenge the desirability of withholding publication of the figures under the business and private chattels schemes, but would seek to leave intact the obligation of the Treasury to publish the figures under the real property scheme in Part I, which, of course, deals only with two classes of hereditaments, namely, buildings and land other than buildings. May I in passing explain why we have not proposed that the obligation to publish figures in respect of the other two schemes should remain? In regard to the private chattels scheme, we think we can trust the Treasury not to give a certificate that it would be contrary to the interests of national defence to publish these figures. It would indicate a very odd view of national security to give a certificate that it would be useful to the enemy to know how much furniture and so on had been destroyed 12 months ago in air raids on our cities. With regard to the business scheme, we make no proposal for insisting on publicity for the figures, because we think in that case there might be something to be said for concealing from the enemy the amount of damage he has done to goods covered by that scheme.

In the case of real property, however, different considerations apply. I think the arguments for secrecy are far less cogent in that case, and the arguments for publication—unless the right hon. Gentleman has something to say upon it which he has not yet said—are almost conclusive. I propose to recapitulate them briefly to the Committee. First, the figures need not be published until the November following the end of the financial year in which the damage occurred. That provides a minimum interim period of six or seven months before the figures would be published, but that is not the period which will probably elapse before publication. The period which will possibly elapse between the time of the damage and the time of publication will be greater. First, the damage has to be done; then the claim has to be made; then the claim has to be considered and, finally, the payment has to be made. So, in practice these figures will not be published before the passing of from ten to twelve or even fourteen months in certain cases—according to my information on the time occupied in getting these claims through—after the occurrence of the damage.

Even when these figures are published, they will not distinguish between damage done to military and to non-military objectives. We know that the properties affected by the scheme number about 13,000,000, and according to the Treasury estimate they are worth between £6,000,000,000 and £8,000,000,000. This estimate covers the value of buildings alone. Let the Committee reflect on what a small proportion of that total value is likely to be damaged by enemy action at all, according to the information which we already possess, given to us by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. How can it be useful to the enemy to know that twelve months ago such a small proportion of the total value of the property has been damaged or destroyed when, in the interim, practically the whole of that damage in the case of military properties, will certainly have been repaired? Therefore I submit with some confidence that, on reflection, the Treasury should not persist in maintaining their right to keep that information secret.

I should like now to say something about the publication of these figures, and I propose to ask for a little more even than I have asked for in the terms of the Amendment. If the right hon. Gentleman after discussion should see his way to accept this Amendment, I would ask him to undertake also to publish the difference between the damage done to agricultural property and that done to non-agricultural property. There is a considerable feeling among the agricultural community that, although their contribution is lower in relation to the value of their property, it is still too high in relation to the risks involved. There seems to be no reason why, for example, the owner of a farm should contribute in respect of damage done in a town any more than that the mortgagee of a town property should equally share the losses of the mortgagor, a principle which the right hon. Gentleman has declined so far to accept. While we do not ignore the fact that the global figure would give the enemy some rough idea, as a matter of interest, of the damage done, it could be of no conceivable military usefulness to him. Furthermore, even if he does receive the figure, I am certain it will not be in accordance with his own.

What are the arguments in favour of the publication of the figures in relation to the scheme under Part I? The principal argument is that the obligation to publish is a Section in the principal Act which had a large influence in inducing those affected by the Act to accept it without much greater opposition at the time. Certainly, in this House, on the Second Reading of the Measure, it was looked upon as being almost in the nature of a promise. At any rate it was certainly a collateral term of the agreement, as it were, between the House and the right hon. Gentleman to give the Measure a Second Reading in face of the doubts which a great many hon. Members felt at that time as to its principles. While, as I said on Second Reading, I do not put this on a moral plane at all, for it is purely a question of expediency, I do think the Chancellor ought to consider whether it is right on such small grounds, to fail to implement a provision which played its part in securing the Second Reading of the Measure.

Moreover, if the figures are published, they will go far to allay the widespread feeling—I am not saying whether it is justified or not—that the amount of contribution is not in fact warranted by the risks. Everybody will understand that a fund of this kind must have a substantial reserve. Although it is not for me to speak for property owners, I feel that the small property-owners—I hope the right hon. Gentleman is following me; he is exhibiting certain signs of mystification about what I am saying but it is quite plain. I hope, I say, that small property-owners will be placed in a position to judge whether the amount of their premiums is in fair relation to the risks run. Unless the matter is to be surrounded with mystery that can only be done by publication of these figures. I hope the right hon. Gentleman understands that argument.

In conclusion, may I say that my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw and I would be the last persons to propose this Amendment if we thought it would be of the slightest utility to the enemy if it were passed. Even so great an authority as the Prime Minister has stated that the plea of public interest and public security should be sparingly invoked, but we are finding that it is being increasingly invoked; if it is to be extended from the strategical and tactical spheres to cover questions more distantly removed, such as the question we are now discussing, then I think the plea of public interest is being strained and may be brought into such discredit that, when it is really necessary to plead it, it will not be accepted without challenge as it ought to be.