Orders of the Day — EMERGENCY POWERS (DEFENCE) (No. 2) BILL.

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at on 6 August 1940.

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Photo of Mr Campbell Stephen Mr Campbell Stephen , Glasgow Camlachie

It appears to me that there are three points of view in connection with this Bill.

There are the Government point of view; the point of view expressed by the hon. and gallant Member who preceded me and those who agreed with him; and the point of view that, while modification will be necessary in the circumstances contemplated, the matter is so serious that the House should have before it a Bill which they would be able to modify and amend. This would not he possible if the Government's views were adopted. There has always been a difficulty with regard to regulations in that the House has not been able to amend them; they have either had to be accepted or rejected en bloc. For my own part, I agree that it would be much better if the Home Secretary would introduce a Bill and put into it what he is contemplating putting into the regulations so that Members on all sides of the House would have an opportunity to give the Government the benefit of their experience and knowledge in helping to make the proposals really effective for the protection of the rights of people. At the same time I recognise that the Home Secretary has made a very plausible case. From my experience of the regulations that have been made, and the administration of the law in this country since the war began, the Home Secretary has in general adopted a very proper and wise point of view. Very often he has been ahead of the House and the judiciary in connection with some questions.

I do not want to be taken as being unduly critical of the Home Secretary in view of the amount of common sense he has shown in carrying out his duties but, at the same time, I feel that if there had been power in the House to amend past regulations, there would have been better administration in the country. I do not agree at all with the point of view that these matters can be left to the wisdom of commanders and military authorities. The hon. Member who preceded me spoke about experiences in France and the wisdom and the justice shown there. Well, I think of the last war and of the experience in Dublin when an eminent Irishman, Mr. Sheehy Skeffington, was sentenced to death, that sentence having been carried out by an officer who was afterwards adjudged to be insane. I do not want anything like that to happen in the course of this war. I certainly agree that if we have to choose between military and civil tribunals, then I am in favour of the proposal of the Government as compared with putting us into the hands of the military authorities. There are many people in uniform who are not at all fitted to act in a judicial capacity, and I would rather see civilian tribunals. It would be better if the procedure were worked out by the House than that we should have to accept the regulations en bloc, as we shall have to do if the Home Secretary's plans go through.

I would like to say to the Home Secretary that I hope that, if his policy is accepted, the civil tribunals will be sound, because there is a great danger in present circumstances of people getting the jitters. This is obvious from what is going on in various parts of the country among people who are acting as magistrates. That they have the jitters is shown by the way they are dealing with certain cases. Powers have been given to the Government, and regulations have been made in order to safeguard the country, but we are now in danger of being nearly as badly off as they are in Germany with regard to what we say to each other. There was a case in the Press a few days ago of a person who expressed the view to another person that Hitler would be here before August. That person, a man of 74, was hauled before a court—