Old Age and Widows' Pensions [Money].

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at on 26 February 1940.

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Photo of Mr Walter Elliot Mr Walter Elliot , Glasgow Kelvingrove

I said the present rules of the Unemployment Assistance Board, which we hope to be able to improve upon. [An Hon. Member: "What are the rules?"] I can give the figures as to the public assistance authorities which deal with the capital assets of the old people, either in a more or a less favourable manner than the Unemployment Assistance Board does under present conditions. There again I found that only 23 public assistance authorities in England and Wales covering 10,000,000 people, have adopted the provisions of the Transitional Payments (Determination of Need) Act, 1932, which safeguards compensation, individual capital, and so on. 122 public assistance authorities, with a total population of 30,000,000, have not adopted them and are not bound by Statute under as favourable terms as the Unemployment Assistance Board gives at present. These are important points. I remember not long ago the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) said, "Time and again when I was working in education I found it necessary to look and see where reforms have come from, where improvements in the conditions of scholars had arisen from, where improvements in the conditions of teachers had arisen from. In every case I found they had originated on the Floor of this House." I have no doubt that that will hold good in the future as it has done in the past.

The suggestion that the means test should be entirely swept away is not only not the way to proceed, but it is not the way in which HON.MEMBERS opposite proceeded when they themselves were improving and reforming the old age pension scheme. In 1924 they started to reform the means test of the Act of 1908. That is not merely, as has been suggested, a personal test. It not merely, as has been suggested, takes account of the income of the pensioner and his wife. Regard has to be had to the value of any benefit or privilege, such as free board or lodging or voluntary allowances. There is no suggestion here that pensions subject to the means test are those under the contributory scheme. Both classes which are subject to a means test are non-contributory. The non-contributory old age pensions were subject to a means test in 1908, and they were left subject to a means test when Labour started to reform the system in 1924. We must have a clear principle to go on, and the clear principle is the one the Government has adopted and asks the Committee to reaffirm to-night. That is the principle that responsibility for the pensioner is to be taken over by the State. If the pension is to be increased as part of the contributory system, it will be increased by the State. If it is to be supplemented, it is on the responsibility of the State that the supplementation will be given. This is not the introduction of a means test. This is the biggest reform in connection with the means test which has been placed before the House for many a long day. On all these grounds I say never did I go into the Lobby with more assurance and conviction than I shall to-night, and never shall I ask the Committee to support the Government with more assurance than I feel now in asking them to put through this Resolution.