When the Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies) began his oration he told the House that he had practical knowledge of his subject because he himself had been an assistant in a shop, and he added, quite rightly, that he thought he looked none the worse for the job. Perhaps it would not be out of place if I said that I can say the same thing and I began my life as a shop assistant. I would add that I am none the worse for it. Perhaps I have had a little more experience than the hon. Member for Westhoughton, taking it on the whole. because I have not only worked for something like 14 and 15 hours a day as a shop assistant, but I have worked the same number of hours as a shopkeeper, and for the whole of my life I have either been a shop assistant or a shopkeeper.

This evening, even at this late hour, I felt it my duty to speak on behalf of the shopkeeper. Hon. Members on the other side, particularly the hon. Member for Westhoughton, quite rightly have the interests primarily of the shop assistants. He is undoubtedly a champion of the rights and privileges of the shop assistant. If I may say so without offence, he has made out, in my opinion, a very excellent case for those who serve and those who wait in the shops—because to-day they are waiting rather than serving. I can assure my hon. Friend, if such assurance is necessary, that if the proprietors of businesses were in a position to shorten the hours of the shop assistants and make a living at the same time, nothing would please them more than to do so. They are in a very parlous condition.

Since, and even months before, September, 1939, the retail traders—and I speak to-night particularly for this great Metropolis and Outer London—have been in a terrible position. Thousands, even in this area of Greater London, have not only lost every penny of their capital, but are hardly earning a living. Those traders who are still in business are hanging on, in many cases, by the skin of their teeth, hoping either that, by some relief for which they are asking their landlords in regard to rents and the municipalities in regard to rates, they will be able to carry on. The position of thousands of small traders to-day is so acute that they are actually earning less than what a first-class assistant would be able to earn in peace time.

When the Order-in-Council to which reference has been made was issued, on 3oth October last, the right hon. Member for South Hackney (Mr. H. Morrison), as leader of the London County Council, immediately saw the hardships of the smaller and medium-sized shop-owners, and the small consumer—and all credit to him for doing so. He had the broad vision to look at this problem from all angles, and not from the one angle of the shop assistants. He then, as the hon. Member for Westhoughton recalled, varied the Order, as he had a right to do. In doing so, he said, at a meeting of the London County Council, of which I have the honour to be a member: We have to consider and balance three factors:

1. (1) the understandable desire of shop assistants and some traders for still earlier closing;
2. (2) the livelihood of the small traders who are already experiencing a difficult time; and
3. (3) the convenience of the shopping public. Large numbers of single girls live long distances from their places of employment, and we have had to consider husbands whose wives have had to be evacuated.

All these factors have been fully weighed and taken into account. We have come to the conclusion that in the general public interest the extended restricted hours should be permitted. He added that it was perhaps unfortunate that the law does not permit the hours of shop assistants to be limited as distinct from the shop hours. In my opinion, the right hon. Member for South Hackney, as the leader of the London County Council, looked at this matter from all angles and did the right thing. Since the Order-in-Council was made on 30th October many organisations affiliated to the National Chamber of Trade—a very influential body of traders—consider that the present arrangements are working very well indeed. There is, however, in my opinion and in theirs, a grievance, emanating more, I think, from the North of England than from the Metropolis, where undoubtedly local authorities have changed the late day of closing, as they have in London, from Saturday to Friday. This arrangement suits the convenience of the traders in the outer or the suburban areas of the large towns, but it has a very adverse effect on the centre of cities and all these central areas. This arrangement has caused—and perhaps the hen. Member for Westhoughton knows of this demand—a demand for two late nights up to 8 p.m. On the other hand, some local authorities, as he has already remarked, have declined to give a four days' extension to 7 p.m., and again this gives cause for complaint. It is true to say that very small traders continue to press for the pre-war hours, and in passing I should like to say how pleased I am to-night that the hon. Member for Westhoughton has introduced this Debate, because it has elicited from the Minister Very valuable information which will very likely save the lives of many shopkeepers during the coming spring and summer months. In view of the number of traders in the category I have mentioned who have exemption under the Act of 1928, I am of opinion that under the existing conditions no general demand is being made to revert to pre-war hours, but I am very glad to have heard that the Minister is to take that fact into consideration when this black-out ceases to a certain extent during the spring and summer months.

There is, however, one more point in the opinion of retailers generally throughout the country upon which information from the responsible Minister—and the Minister to whom I refer is the Home Secretary—is urgently needed to ascertain how long the Order made on 30th October is to operate. I listened very carefully to the Minister when he was speaking, but I did not hear him tell us how long that Order would operate. It is to be hoped that the Order shall not be regarded as permanently amending the Act of 1928, but that the hours of closing shall revert to the normal hours under the Act not later than he has already suggested might take place, namely, the reintroduction of Summer-time this year. I think I remember him saying that he was not quite sure as to the exact date, but I suggest that the appropriate date would be the date of the re-introduction of Summer-time this year. These normal hours should continue at least up to the same date as when the Order came into force, namely, 30th October.

I reiterate that I am very glad indeed that the hon. Member for Westhoughton has introduced this matter. I feel sure, knowing him as I do, that he likes to look on both sides of this question, but he must, under present conditions, during war-time and the black-out, remember that there are thousands of shopkeepers who are worse off than the very men that he wishes to help. Moreover, if the suggestions were carried out as he wishes, I think it would do more harm to his own people than it would to any of the shopkeepers. I hope the Minister will let us know as soon as possible the date on which he proposes to give us this relief and also how long the Order is to operate.