National Service.

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at on 20 December 1938.

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Photo of Mr Wilfrid Roberts Mr Wilfrid Roberts , Cumberland Northern

We are in some difficulty in discussing this subject to-day, because there are two matters before us, as was clearly brought out by the interruptions during the Minister's speech. We could of course discuss merely the general question of the relative advantages of voluntary and compulsory systems of national service, but I feel it is much more important that we should devote time to a discussion of the details of the Government's proposals for a voluntary scheme. Unfortunately, as I say, we are in a difficulty because we have not these details before us. We have to rely upon statements which have been made in the House previously and on the Minister's speech to-day. I was anxious to find what were the reserved occupations. The Minister of Labour has told us something about them, but, clearly, the Ministers concerned have not yet made up their mind upon this point and the scheme is not at a very advanced stage. I take it that primarily the object of the scheme is to assist in filling the gaps in personnel which still exist in the various services which members of the public may join. As the Lord Privy Seal said in winding up the Debate the other night, his object is to find people for the jobs which exist already and not jobs for the people. I feel that some hon. Members do not wish that to be the case. They wish to have a compulsory system of training in which there shall be jobs for everybody so that the scheme should be put the other way round and jobs made which the people can occupy.

That leads to a certain amount of confusion, and I will mainly confine myself to the question of what the Government are doing to fill the services as they exist to-day, on a voluntary basis. It is important to know more of what they will do, because in the second part of the Motion there is something of an implied threat to the whole voluntary scheme; that is to say, if the voluntary scheme of the Government falls down on an administrative point we shall have the voluntary system condemned, although it might not be the voluntary system, but merely the administrative arrangements, which were insufficient. Therefore, I hope that it may be possible to have two days' Debate when the House reassembles—a Debate at an early stage when the Government scheme will be published and when we might have a White Paper on the subject, when we can discuss the scheme in detail; and a further Debate in March when we can discuss whether in the time which will have elapsed the voluntary system has been justified by results. The idea of a Handbook is excellent in its way, for it will give the public information about the services about which they are not yet sufficiently clear, but there is a general consideration which over-clouds even the value of a Handbook.

One reason which is delaying recruitment to the various services is that people are not quite convinced that the Government themselves know what they want. Deeds are more convincing than words, however simply phrased they may be, and however well broadcast to every household in the form of an attractive Handbook. The deeds of the Government in the last two months have not impressed the public that the Government have made up their mind what they want and have the intention of pushing through their programme. What really convinced the people of the country that there was a crisis was the distribution of gas masks and the digging of trenches in the parks. For two months those trenches have remained a monument to indecision on the part of the Departments concerned, and the public is beginning to wonder whether the Government themselves know what they want in air-raid precautions. Two months have elapsed, and the only really constructive decision, as far as passive defence is concerned, is the decision to issue a Handbook. That is very good, but we expect more, and I do not think the Government will get volunteers in really large numbers until the Government themselves have given a different impression to the public.

More than a year ago I spoke in the House recommending that we should prepare air-raid shelters. The finance of that problem is difficult and it has not yet been completely faced. Many other Members on all sides of the House have pressed the Government to make some decision about it, and until some decision is made, not in panic in a crisis, but as a well considered decision, the public will hang back. After all, this is a country which has built up its greatness on mining. If I go to the miners in my area and ask them to volunteer for various services, I find a high proportion of them are out of work. I cannot do anything but tell them that I think they would be better employed usefully on making shelters in London and on the north-east coast than being unemployed. It is useless to go to these men and ask them to volunteer as air-raid wardens when they are just standing idle and when this is a time, if there is real danger, as we believe there is, to this country, when they should be employed on jobs which could be done now and which would be much more difficult to do if we were involved in a war.

We hear from various sides of the House about the proposals of the Government for the evacuation of children and the civil population. My district is one into which refugees will be evacuated, and it is some concern to it that the preparations which were made during the crisis were lacking in any arrangements for the care of the refugees when they arrived in the districts.