National Voluntary Service.

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at on 6 December 1938.

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Photo of Sir John Anderson Sir John Anderson , Combined Scottish Universities

I quite appreciate that, but it does not affect what I was going to say. I was going to point out that there must necessarily be much that is conjectural in regard to the conditions of a future war—how the attack might affect the various industries of the nation, the extent of the initial disturbance, and so on. Just as the strength of a chain is the strength of its weakest link, so in planning it serves no purpose to be exact beyond a degree, allowing for inevitable error in calculations, and I was going to suggest that while I freely admit that it would be an interesting thing and a useful thing if we had an entirely up-to-date record of man-power which we could analyse for the purpose of getting precise statistical information on various points, we have general information with regard to the distribution and extent of our manpower based on the last census—out of date to some extent, I agree, but still there—and if it can be made a basis of working out a strategic plan it would probably—I speak with diffidence—be as exact as any plan you could make, having regard to the other factors of uncertainty.

Then my hon. Friend went on to say that we ought to study the needs of industry, the needs of home defence, the needs of the public utility services and the problem of replacements. I entirely agree, but a national Register of man-power will not in itself enable us to do these things; they have got to be done separately, and that is part of the problem not of national service but of the problem with which I have to deal in my other capacity, the problem of civil defence. My hon. Friend mentioned that we ought to trace the valuable ex-officers who had served in the last War. One of the purposes of the Register is that information concerning people possessing special qualifications would be got together. People would know that they could apply. Since I assumed my present office I have had innumerable applications from people who have described their experiences. I have had difficulty in dealing with such applications, in the absence of any arrangement for having the material properly reviewed and classified. That is the purpose of that special section of the Register.

Then my hon. Friend said—and I do not comment upon it with criticism and I have no complaint—that he felt I had unwittingly misled the House when I referred to a period of three weeks within which, if we made the preparations I am suggesting, we could have a complete national Register available for war purposes. I qualified my remarks by a reference to the physical conditions. It was part of the plan which I put before the House that we should, by the use of the voluntary system, endeavour to provide a plan not only for immediate needs but one which, in the event of war, would carry us on for some time. The idea in mind was that it might be found, when the time came, that it would be better to make the national Register a complete Register, a compulsory Register, after the initial disturbance and transfer of population which would be inevitable if we had a major war, had taken place. Then we could get the most exact information in regard to the actual condition of the population of the country. I know that there are many elements of doubt, but it is absurd to suggest that we can have a hard-and-fast, settled plan in advance. I know that that belief is in the mind of hon. Members as a possibility.

Now let me pass on. The hon. Member for Bridgwater (Mr. Bartlett) whom I should like to congratulate on a most interesting and suggestive speech, put forward a number of comments on various aspects of the plans which I had outlined. The one that impressed itself most upon me, as an ex-Indian Governor, was his reference to the value of pageantry—although I sometimes feel that I have had too much pageantry. Anyhow, I promise that the suggestion that we should make our first appeal at the beginning of the year in a dramatic way shall have the fullest consideration, together with all his other suggestions. We come now to the speech of the hon. Baronet the Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Sir P. Harris). He, too, was very kind to me, and he made a number of suggestions. He spoke of the possibility of bringing in the educational authorities in the matter of training. We propose to make the fullest use of those facilities. The question of physical training will not be neglected, though I confess that I cannot say here and now just how far it may be possible to include it in the training which we have in mind. When the guide or Handbook, to which reference has been made by many speakers, is available, it will be seen that reference to the physical fitness movement is made in a prominent place in that book. The hon. Gentleman asked me, in regard to National Service committees, not to hold myself committed to details. I hope I have already made it clear that what I have suggested was only intended to indicate the general nature of the proposals that we have in mind.

My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Preston (Captain Cobb), whose speech I did not hear, inquired, I understand, what provision was being made for informing the uninsured as to how they might help in relation to National Service. The scheme that has been put forward contains, I think, the answer to that question. The guide—the Handbook—is intended to help those people. They are more in need of help than those who are already, as more than one speaker has pointed out, registered. The hon. Member for South Islington (Mr. Cluse) said that he and his friends were willing to share in national defence, but there must be real co-operation. That is what we on this side ask for. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Totnes (Major Rayner) thought the proposals we put forward were half-hearted, and that we should have advocated compulsion. There I disagree. The hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) welcomed consultation with labour, and he also spoke, I think, of the importance of dealing with property as well as with personnel.

My hon. Friend the Member for East Fife (Mr. Henderson Stewart), in a speech to which I gave very close attention, made several observations in regard to the scope of my functions in relation to National Service. There was one thing that he said, bearing on something that fell from me in my earlier speech, on which I should like to comment. In that speech I said something to the effect that we had not got jobs for everyone—that, if we had jobs for everybody now, there would not be all the men required in an emergency. Of course, I was talking only of National Service jobs, and what I said was true; but I entirely agree with my hon. Friend that we must not make the mistake of under-estimating the nature of the demand that is likely to be made for National Service in time of peace. We must also, as he truly said, take into account the possibility of the expansion of the demand in various directions as time goes on. But there is one thing that I would like to say, because it is fundamental. The function of any National Service organisation must be to find people for jobs, not jobs for people. That is quite fundamental. It is for those who are concerned with the various services, and not for the person who is running the National Service organisation, to define the demand under the various heads. I can promise my hon. Friend that I shall duly bring to the notice of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War what he has to say concerning certain deficiencies which he thought to exist in the Territorial Force organisation.

Coming to the very helpful speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton), he suggested that it would be found that there was an overwhelming volume of opinion up and down the country in favour of some such plan as I have outlined, and that there was no such deep division in the country as might have been inferred by comparing certain speeches that have been made here this afternoon putting forward different points of view. He, I think, supported the idea of a united appeal in which all parties joined. I hope that will be very carefully considered. He inquired about the position of men who are engaged on the land—a very important matter, since, if war were to come, the maintenance of agricultural production would be of the very first importance. It will be found, when the Handbook is issued, that guidance is offered on that point. He referred, further, to the problem of evacuation, and the necessity for a large number of voluntary helpers in handling that complicated and rather delicate problem. There again, he will find that in the Handbook the requirements in that respect are very clearly dealt with.

The hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Kelly) spoke about national service committees, with which I have already dealt, and rather complained that no adequate indication had been given of the kind of national service jobs that were to be given. It is one of the main objects of the Government to give just that information. In regard to operatives, to whom he referred, when he asked what was to be done about them, they form, in the schedule of reserved occupations and the Register to be maintained in that connection, by far the largest section of the National Voluntary Register. As regards the question of trailer pumps, which he raised, he knows that I am making inquiry into certain matters that he has represented to me, and in due course I shall be able to give him the results of the inquiry. The hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton) was inclined to see in the proposals put forward by the Government the thin end of the wedge, and to make his own position in regard to this matter perfectly clear he also referred to the importance of dealing with property as well as men.

My hon. and learned Friend the Member for North Edinburgh (Mr. Erskine Hill) made, if I may say so, a very helpful speech. Perhaps it was a speech which only showed how Scotsmen think together, but it was helpful to me. He supported the voluntary Register. He thought it better than a compulsory Register, for one thing, because it would be a live Register, and he hoped that the people who came under that Register would find themselves in due course in the more responsible positions, because they had shown earlier a sense of their responsibility and had taken pains to obtain instruction in their particular divisions of national service. I was glad to hear my hon. and learned Friend say that he had seen signs of improvement in equipment, organisation and training in some of the large centres since the crisis of two months ago.

I come now to the speech delivered by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition. He said that he was a believer in the principle of the effective utilisation of man-power resources. He supported, as I should have expected, the voluntary principle. He made some observations on the question of conscription. He made it quite clear that as far as he was concerned, if there was to be conscription in time of war, personally he would take the view that there should also be conscription in regard to property. I have not attempted in the course of this Debate to indicate any view of my own about conscription in time of war. I have made it quite clear that I think we should have to have a complete compulsory Register. I say nothing at all about conscription. I take the view that, if an attempt were made to decide something on that matter in advance, the whole question would inevitably have to be reviewed on the occurrence of an emergency by the Government of the day. As far as I am concerned I am not going to do or say anything more about that matter.

I was glad indeed to hear the right hon. Gentleman give the support he gave to my view that there is an overwhelming case for attempting now to get the most intelligent distribution of man-power in regard to National Service. That is the object of the scheme that I have submitted to the House. He spoke of lack of thought and false romanticism—I think those were his words—that had been exhibited in the last War. I think that in the preparations that we are making and the organisation that we are endeavouring to build up now we want to try and avoid certain glaring mistakes into which the nation fell in the last War. I would just utter this word of caution that, in considering the problems of today, it does not do to think too closely in terms of the War of 1914–18.

The right hon. Gentleman rather, I think, complained that the Government had not given the House sufficient enlightenment as to the plan that we have in view. I have done my best. I am very conscious of the inordinate time that I took up with my first speech. I hoped to have completed it in a shorter period of time, and if, even so, I failed to convey all the information that hon. Members would like to have, I can only express my regret, but there will be other opportunities of amplifying on any point which may be desired the information which has already been placed at the disposal of the House.