Clause 2. — (Fire-hydrants and water supply in case of fire.)

Orders of the Day — Fire Brigades Bill. – in the House of Commons at on 5 July 1938.

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4.3 P.m.

Photo of Mr Samuel Hoare Mr Samuel Hoare , Chelsea

I beg to move, in page 4, line 16, at the end, to insert: (7) A fire authority may use for the purpose of extinguishing fires any convenient or suitable supply of water, but shall be liable to pay reasonable compensation therefor:Provided that nothing in this Sub-section shall affect the duty of undertakers to whom Section forty-two of the Waterworks Clauses Act, 1847, applies, to supply water for the said purpose without compensation. It is necessary that the Bill be recommitted if we are to discuss later a question that may raise the issue of increasing either the rates or the charges on the Exchequer.

Photo of Mr Joseph Westwood Mr Joseph Westwood , Stirling and Falkirk District of Burghs

Speaking for myself and my friends we have no objection whatever to this Amendment, which fulfils a promise given in Standing Committee.

Amendment agreed to.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

4.5 P.m.

Photo of Mr John Wardlaw-Milne Mr John Wardlaw-Milne , Kidderminster

I want to raise one small point that I mentioned at the time when the House gave a Second Reading to the Bill. I am not clear as to what is the position of existing authorities where the water pipes now laid would not give a sufficient head of water for efficient fire fighting in an extended area. The position is this: Some of the authorities, at any rate in the Midlands, have arrangements which are sufficient for a supply of water under ordinary conditions in ordinary circumstances. The Bill now requires them to provide an increased supply in the case of it being required for fire-fighting purposes. What is to be the position as between those authorities and the water companies which have made the existing installation of pipes? Is the local authority to require that the water company shall relay their whole system with larger pipes so as to enable the authority to carry out the conditions laid down in this Bill? If so, who is to pay? Is there anything in the Bill which forces the water company to lay these heavier pipes without payment, or has the local authority to make the payment, and if so are the Government going to give any assistance to the local authorities in carrying out that work? It is not a point on which I wish to speak at any length, but my right hon. Friend will perhaps recollect that I raised it on the Second Reading, and as far as I know no reply was given on that occasion.

Photo of Mr Samuel Hoare Mr Samuel Hoare , Chelsea

I think that my hon. Friend has mistaken the scope of this Clause. It deals only with hydrants. It thus reproduces the existing state of affairs; it adds no new obligations at all. If my hon. Friend will read the Clause again he will see, first of all, that it is restricted to hydrants; and, secondly, that it uses the phrase: such fire hydrants as are necessary for securing the best practicable use of the available supply of water.

4.8 p.m.

Photo of Mr Thomas Levy Mr Thomas Levy , Elland

How is it proposed to apply this Clause to those districts where there is no tapping or piped water supply? It is well known that in a large number of areas there are only indifferent water supplies, where the water is obtained from shallow wells and not in great volume. Perhaps the Minister will explain, so that rural authorities which have no water supply in the true sense of the term may know what they are to do.

Photo of Mr John Wardlaw-Milne Mr John Wardlaw-Milne , Kidderminster

I appreciate that the main object of this Clause is to deal with hydrants, but Sub-section (4) distinctly says that the fire authorities may enter into agreements with any water company, and so on, and as far as I know there is no other part of the Bill which deals with the point I have raised —that is the position of companies in areas where at present the water pipes are not sufficient for these fire-fighting purposes, bearing in mind the extended housing developments of the last few years. What is the position?

Photo of Mr Samuel Hoare Mr Samuel Hoare , Chelsea

In answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Kidderminster (Sir J. Wardlaw-Milne), these things will have to be done by agreement, as indeed they are now. In answer to the wider point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for the Elland Division (Mr. Levy), the answer is that this Clause deals with hydrants, and that, therefore, it does not deal with areas in which there are no water pipes. You cannot have a hydrant without a pipe.

Photo of Mr Thomas Levy Mr Thomas Levy , Elland

Are we to understand that the question of fighting fire in the districts to which I have referred is to be left entirely to Providence, which means, as the story goes, that sometimes it rains and therefore they may have a fire put out if such a contingency arises?

Photo of Mr Samuel Hoare Mr Samuel Hoare , Chelsea

No, that would not be the case. Sub-section (5) says that fire authorities are to take all practicable steps… to improve and maintain any natural water supplies in their borough or district.

4.11 p.m.

Photo of Mr George Griffiths Mr George Griffiths , Hemsworth

There are small urban authorities which provide for the inhabitants only sufficient water for the necessities of the moment, apart from any fire that may break out. I can see that the Clause means that if the Bill as drafted is applied the local authority is going to have the tremendous expense of laying bigger water pipes. I am very anxious to know on whose back that expenditure is to be placed. There are small authorities whose rates now are anything up to 19s. 6d. in the £, and if they have to bear this additional burden it may mean the laying of new pipes that would cost anything up to a rate of 2s. 6d. in the £. Any additional financial burden caused by the Bill should be borne by the Treasury and not by the local authorities.

Photo of Mr John Leslie Mr John Leslie , Sedgefield

What is to become of poverty-stricken districts in the distressed areas? Are they to be compelled to face all this cost? Are the Government not coming to the rescue in any way?

4.13 p.m.

Photo of Mr William Watson Mr William Watson , Dunfermline District of Burghs

I had not intended to speak now, because I was under the impression that we would get an opportunity to raise this question later, but seeing that it has been raised now I will put a question to the Minister. The right hon. Gentleman knows that already inspectors from the Home Office have been visiting certain local authorities and making inquiries about their firefighting arrangements and about the condition of the water piping. The arrangements are satisfactory for the local authorities so far, but the authorities are now being informed by representatives of the Home Office that additional piping, or new pipes in place of corroded pipes, will have to be introduced. Some local authorities are very much concerned over this matter. What assistance do the Government propose to give? On the Second Reading of the Bill we were told that it was not intended that there should be any increased expenditure incurred by the local authorities, but the local authorities are now discovering, as a result of the visit of the Home Office inspectors, that their present arrangements are far short of what will be regarded as an efficient water supply. The local authorities want to know what financial assistance they are to get from the Government.

4.15 p.m.

Mr. J. J. Davidson:

When this Bill was being considered in the Standing Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline (Mr. Watson) and I raised a question with regard to Subsection (5) of this Clause. The Clause states that every council who are a fire authority shall take all practical steps within the powers of the council to improve access to such water supplies as they may have. Not only have they to maintain their natural water supplies, but they have also to improve the access to them. I ask the Home Secretary for a definition of what that means. Hon. Members will realise that, in England and Wales, the Home Secretary and in Scotland, the Secretary of State for Scotland, have power to decide whether a local authority or a fire authority has taken all practicable steps. In the case of Scotland, it lies within the power of the Secretary of State for Scotland to say to a council that it has or has not taken all practicable steps to improve access to such water supplies, and consequently, it lies within the power of the Home Secretary or the Secretary of State for Scotland to involve a local authority in further expense in creating such access to its water supplies. The Secretary of State for Scotland may be reasonable or he may be unreasonable to local authorities; my experience is that the Secretary of State for Scotland is a completely unreasonable person, and that goes for the Under-Secretary as well. The local authorities are concerned about the powers that are invested in those Ministers. I would not like the actions which the Glasgow authorities have to take to be determined by the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland. The hon. Gentleman is doing his best in the job which he holds, and I have no doubt that he would have to go for advice either to his chief or to the Home Secretary. What I would like to know from the Home Secretary is whether the power to decide whether a local council has taken all practicable steps lies with that local council or with the Home Secretary or the Secretary of State for Scotland.

4.18 p.m.

Photo of Sir John Findlay Sir John Findlay , Banffshire

I should like to ask my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary whether, when he states that reasonable compensation will be paid for the use of the water, he has in mind the fact that in small districts the water supply of all sorts of people may be entirely drained away, and they may not be able to get a supply of water for some months to come. I understand that a small fire engine requires some 300 gallons a minute. I suggest that my right hon. Friend should reconsider this Clause, and that reasonable compensation should also be paid to those people who will suffer from a lack of water for some months until a further supply becomes available.

4.19 p.m.

Photo of Lieut-Colonel Sir Thomas Cook Lieut-Colonel Sir Thomas Cook , Norfolk Northern

On the question of the provision of hydrants, I am under the impression that many local authorities throughout the country may have sufficient water for general purposes, but that when it comes to the provision of hydrants under the terms of this Bill, they will find that their supply is quite inadequate from the point of view of fire-fighting services, mainly owing to the loss through friction. Will the local authorities be met with regard to that cost?

4.20 p.m.

Photo of Mr Edward Williams Mr Edward Williams , Ogmore

I wish to put a question in regard to my constituency similar to the question put by the hon. Member for North Norfolk (Sir T. Cook). I have already had occasion to address questions to the Home Secretary concerning the arsenal that is being constructed in my constituency. Naturally, the local authority is under the impression that the con.? construction of such an arsenal will be an additional danger to the locality. That local authority is in a Special Area where the rate is more than £1 in the £, and they want to know from the Home Secretary whether any expenditure which has to be incurred, considering particularly the fact that the added danger is being brought to the area by the Government, will be met by the Government? I am sure the Home Secretary will appreciate the concern of the local authorities. Within a measurable time, Bridgend will become a very important place, and the Government realise that they are making it important as a defence centre. Have the local authorities, of which there are three or four within an eight or ten miles radius of those large works, to bear the additional expenditure necessary to meet the added danger which the Government are bringing to that centre?

4.22 p.m.

Photo of Mr Samuel Hoare Mr Samuel Hoare , Chelsea

Some of the questions that have been asked me, for instance, the question put by the hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. E. J. Williams), go far out side the scope of this Clause, and deal with the whole financial basis of the Bill. I should be out of order if I were to deal at any length with a question such as that put by the hon. Member for Ogmore. The financial basis of the Bill is well known to the House, namely, what the Government are doing, and what the local authorities are expected to do. I will deal with the specific questions raised on this Clause one by one. As to the question asked by the hon. Member for Dunfermline (Mr. Watson), I have not any information of the visits of Home Office inspectors to which he referred. If he will send me particulars, I will look into them; but I feel sure that if visits of this kind have been taking place, they have been in connection, not with this Bill, but with the fire-fighting side of air-raid precautions schemes. If that is so, they would rank for grant under the Air-Raid Precautions Act.

Photo of Mr William Watson Mr William Watson , Dunfermline District of Burghs

The inspector who visited my district was concerned about the firefighting equipment, and all the discussion was on that.

Photo of Mr Samuel Hoare Mr Samuel Hoare , Chelsea

That is exactly my point. The hon. Member seems to forget that firefighting equipment in emergencies is part of the air-raid precautions schemes. As far as it is part of them, it will rank for grant.

Photo of Mr William Watson Mr William Watson , Dunfermline District of Burghs

I would point out to the right hon. Gentleman that in the course of the discussion between the inspector and the representative of the local authority, there was a discussion on what were called peace-time requirements. As I told the right hon. Gentleman in the Standing Committee, the local authority is of opinion that it is fully equipped for peacetime requirements. There has never been any question about the borough served by that local authority having adequate eqipment in that respect. Then the inspector came and said that the equipment was not sufficient even for peace-time rquirements, and in order to bring the equipment up to peace-time requirements, in conformity with this Bill, very considerable expense will be entailed to the local authority.

Photo of Mr Samuel Hoare Mr Samuel Hoare , Chelsea

With all due deference to the hon. Member, I should very much doubt whether that were the case. If the hon. Member will send me particulars, I will look into them. I think it must be a question of the requirements under air-raid precautions schemes, and as I have said they would rank for grant under the Air-Raid Precautions Act. A question was asked by the hon. Member for Maryhill (Mr. Davidson) about the scope of Subsection (5). As the hon. Member will remember, we had a good deal of discussion about that Sub-section in the Standing Committee, and I think that the Amendments to Sub-section (5) which I have on the Paper on the Report stage should fully satisfy the doubts that were then expressed. I will deal with these Amendments when we come to them on the Report stage, but I will say, in passing, that they explain what we intend under Sub-section (5) rather more explicitly and they make it clear that we do not intend to impose unreasonable obligations on any local authorities. Let me say, further, that the local authority is itself the final authority to decide a matter of this kind. There are no coercive powers and no default powers that could be brought into operation if Sub-section (5) were not carried into effect in the way that some Government office might desire. Therefore, I think that when we come to the specific Amendments to this Sub-section on the Report stage, all reasonable doubts should be removed. I come now to the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for North Norfolk (Sir T. Cook), who asked me whose obligation it would be to provide these hydrants. The answer is, the local authorities.

Photo of Sir John Findlay Sir John Findlay , Banffshire

Will that be the case in Scotland?

Photo of Mr Samuel Hoare Mr Samuel Hoare , Chelsea

Yes, in Scotland also. The hon. Member for Banff (Sir E. Findlay) also asked me a question about compensation to private individuals if their water was used. They would be entitled to compensation just as much as any public body.

Photo of Mr Edward Williams Mr Edward Williams , Ogmore

May I have a reply to the question I put? Does not a constituency in close proximity to a new arsenal call for consideration under this Bill, or is some special consideration to be given to it outside the Bill? The arsenal itself might use millions of gallons of water, and the local authorities would certainly not be able to provide the requirements expected of them under this Bill. Am I to understand that special consideration will be given to this matter outside the Bill?

Photo of Mr Samuel Hoare Mr Samuel Hoare , Chelsea

That case is not dealt with under the Bill. Such a case would be taken into account under the air-raid precautions schemes. I can conceive an area of that kind needing special air-raid precautions, and under the Air Raid Precautions Act, it would be the duty of the local authorities in such an area to have the special danger points taken into account, and obviously a more comprehensive scheme would be needed in such cases. A local authority would be entitled to get the corresponding air-raid precautions grant for the larger scheme that it would need for the greater risks.

4.30 p.m.

Photo of Mr Joseph Westwood Mr Joseph Westwood , Stirling and Falkirk District of Burghs

The main difficulty in the minds of local authorities has not been met by the explanation given by the Home Secretary. It is undoubtedly a fact that the new standard of efficiency, which includes the provision not only of fire engines and fire-fighting apparatus, but of an adequate water supply, even for what are termed the normal requirements for fire-fighting purposes, is not provided for, as far as finance is concerned, either in the Clause which we are discussing or in the Bill itself. It is true that under air-raid precautions, if it is proved that an additional water supply must be provided, a grant on the basis of 70 per cent. up to the first penny and 85 per cent. over and above that is provided, but the difficulty in the minds of the local authorities is that the standard of efficiency, determined by the Home Office in the case of England and by the Scottish Office in the case of Scotland, may be so high that it may compel local authorities to go in for huge capital expenditure.

I can verify the statement made by my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline (Mr. Watson) if I take the case of the district which I help to administer. It has already been pointed out that water pipes of three-inch diameter are of no use for dealing with fires and that it is essential to have laid alongside of those pipes a four-inch pipe or possibly a six-inch pipe. That will cost the local authority there no less than £25,000, and the local authority has no power to protest against that. Having settled the standard of efficiency, if that standard is not worked up to by a local authority, it will be competent for the Home Secretary, through the Fire Commission, definitely to state that the standard has not been attained by the local authority, and it will be competent for the Fire Commission to carry through the work and to charge the local authority in connection with it. All along we have protested against the lack of financial provision. We lodged our protest in Committee on Sub-section (5), and it was slightly altered to meet our claim. There is a slight improvement on the original proposal, but in view of the very unsatisfactory statement which has been made by the right hon. Gentleman and the very grave doubts in the minds of local authorities, for which I think I am entitled to speak in this Committee, because they are always in communication with me, I shall ask my hon. Friends on this side to divide against this Clause.

4.33 p.m.

Photo of Sir Adam Maitland Sir Adam Maitland , Faversham

Speaking for the local authorities in England and Wales, as represented by the Association of Municipal Corporations, I can say that they are satisfied with the alterations which have been made in this Clause by my right hon. Friend. It is true that when the Bill was first drafted Sub-section (5) did not appear.

The Deputy-Chairman:

I think the hon. Gentleman is now discussing an Amendment which will be taken on Consideration of the Bill.

Photo of Sir Adam Maitland Sir Adam Maitland , Faversham

I merely wanted to tell the Committee that the hon. Member for Stirling and Falkirk (Mr. Westwood) did not express accurately the views of local authorities in England and Wales. They acknowledge the attempt of the right hon. Gentleman to meet their point of view, and they do not share the apprehensions which have been expressed.

Photo of Mr Morgan Jones Mr Morgan Jones , Caerphilly

When the hon. Member speaks of the municipal corporations, does he imply that areas like that referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Mr. E. J. Williams) are represented by his organisation?

Photo of Sir Adam Maitland Sir Adam Maitland , Faversham

The hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. E. J. Williams) has, quite properly, drawn attention to an exceptional case, to which the Home Secretary will give consideration.

4.35 P.m.

Photo of Mr George Griffiths Mr George Griffiths , Hemsworth

My experience is directly opposite to that of the hon. Member for Faversham (Mr. Maitland). I speak for the urban districts. I am a member of the National Executive of the Urban District Councils Association, and at Whitby last week they were very dissatisfied with this provision. I have had correspondence galore over this Clause from urban district authorities. The hon. Member for Stirling and Falkirk (Mr. Westwood) gave a case in which a local authority may be involved in a tax of £25,000 for the reconstruction of its water supply, and I have a note here concerning my own local authority, where practically all the rateable value is on cottage property. There is hardly a works there, and it would mean that those people for practically 20 years would have an increase in their rents of anything from 9d. to 1s. 3d. per week. They cannot stand that kind of thing, and we shall be bound to go into the Lobby to show that the urban district councils oppose this Clause hip and thigh.

4.37 p.m.

Mr. Davidson:

I wish to show the danger that we run if we accept this Clause. Municipal and local authorities all over the country have sent representations to us on this Clause as it is before us now. We are dealing, not with the Amendments to improve the Clause, but with the Clause as it is, and the hon. Member for Faversham (Mr. Maitland) is wrong when he states that municipal authorities are satisfied with the Clause that we are now discussing. My hon. Friend the Member for Stirling and Falkirk (Mr. Westwood) is truly representative, in Scotland at least, of municipal thought in this respect, but we have also received representations from English local authorities all over the country, and many hon. Members have spoken for them, asking that this Clause should be improved. We know that Tory and Socialist local authorities object to it very strongly, take exception to the powers granted against them, and call for an immediate improvement.

4.38 p.m.

Photo of Mr Thomas Levy Mr Thomas Levy , Elland

May I make a suggestion to my right hon. Friend? Where there are areas without any water resources at all, and there is a practical inability to comply with this provision, however much they may desire to do so, would it not be wise to consider at a later stage putting an Amendment on the Paper to eliminate those particular areas? It could be made subject to the Home Office as to whether a district concerned came within the Clause. Otherwise, the Clause will be futile in a large number of areas, and particularly in rural areas.

4.39 p.m.

Photo of Mr Richard Acland Mr Richard Acland , Barnstaple

I wonder how the suggestion made by the last speaker would work out in a constituency such as mine, where a very large proportion of the parishes have no water supply at all. No doubt some of them could acquire a pipe water supply for a rate of, say, 6d., but in others it would cost is., in other 2S., in others 3s., and some could not get a pipe water supply at a rate of less than 5S. or 10S. Could the right hon. Gentleman tell us what size of rate would form the dividing line between what would be a practicable step under Sub-section (5) and an impracticable step? Unless there is some definition on these lines, no local authority will have the least idea whether or not it is under an obligation to provide a water supply.

4.40 p.m.

Mr. David Adams:

Under this Clause it is an obligation on a fire-fighting authority to see that an adequate supply of water is provided, and the district that I come from will have to approach a water company with that end in view. That will undoubtedly mean a very heavy expenditure on the Consett area for making the provision necessary in the case of firefighting caused by aerial bombardments, but in that area a steadily expanding number of houses are being built, and the question will then arise, I think, from the point of view of compensation to the local authority under air-raid precautions, whether the local authority can justly claim that the expenditure on this water supply is requisite. But as the local authority will be called upon to pay the bill forthwith, who is to step in and adjudicate between the authority and the water company concerned? It seems to me that the local authority is to have its finances placed in serious jeopardy under this arrangement, and how long is the authority to wait before obtaining a settlement in the matter of air-raid precautions? Will it have to wait a period of years before some test is made as to whether the supply is necessary in the case of a serious air raid, or will the Minister himself or some other authority adjudicate between the local authority and the water company concerned? In any event, it seems that an authority such as that in the Consett area will have its finances placed in most serious jeopardy, because I am advised that an exceedingly heavy expenditure will be requisite to meet the air-raid precautions necessitated there.

4.44 p.m.

Photo of Sir John Findlay Sir John Findlay , Banffshire

Has my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary considered the ulterior meaning of this Clause and the fact that the fire authority will have first call upon the water? It says that the authority must secure the best practicable use of the available supply of water in case of fire. I can visualise a case of a small cottage, in which no loss of life could possibly take place, catching fire and the available water supply in the whole district being utilised to save that derelict cottage. Under this Clause they would have to do it, and the rest of the district, and particularly so in Scotland, might be rendered short of water for months to come through having had to put out a fire which was not worth putting out at such a cost.

4.45 p.m.

Photo of Mr William Shaw Mr William Shaw , Forfarshire

It seems to me that this Clause is going to make it more difficult for my constituents to get water. The people who, under present arrangements, take water from these areas will require more water under these provisions, and indeed it would appear as though the Bill were framed on the assumption that fires were to take place every day, and that the supply of water for the purpose of putting opt fires was more essential than the supply of water for domestic purposes. I want to see more water available in these districts for domestic purposes.

4.47 P.m.

Photo of Mr Samuel Hoare Mr Samuel Hoare , Chelsea

I think hon. Members are reading much more into this Clause than they are entitled to read. It is not proposed to impose these heavy obligations upon small rural areas, and if the hon. Member for Barnstaple (Mr. Acland) will read the Clause he will see that there is no justification for a view of that kind. Sub-section (5), as I have already pointed out, speaks of reasonable steps being taken, and, as I have also pointed out, the final authority to decide is the local authority, and there are no compulsory powers.

Photo of Mr George Griffiths Mr George Griffiths , Hemsworth

The word "reasonable" does not occur here.

Photo of Mr Samuel Hoare Mr Samuel Hoare , Chelsea

One of our difficulties here is that we are dealing with two things at once. We are dealing with the Committee stage which, with all deference to the Committee, may be described as being in the nature of a formality. We are only passing this Clause through the Committee stage now, in order that I may be enabled to move certain Amendments which I undertook, in Standing Committee, to move. When it comes to the Report stage it will be seen that I restrict still further the scope of Subsection (5). There is no question whatever of making these heavy charges on local areas. The fire risks ordinarily in those local areas would be very small, and it would be fantastic for any local authority to countenance expenditure upon the lines suggested by some hon. Members opposite. So also as regards the question of the use of water in those areas. There is no question of draining the supplies for domestic purposes. This Clause is to be used by reasonable people in a reasonable way, and all that is intended is that a local authority should make a survey of the fire risks in the area, and see whether it can improve, say, the access to a particular natural supply of water—a pond or whatever it may be—not at any great expense, but probably at little or no expense.

I think the hon. Member for Stirling and Falkirk (Mr. Westwood) will admit that one or two of the questions which he raised—and I agree that they are very important—involve the whole financial basis of the Bill, and I would certainly not be in order in going into that subject on this Clause. But he will forgive me for saying that he gave rather a partisan account of the matter. He implied that we were doing nothing for the local authorities. As a matter of fact, we are giving assistance in connection with emergency appliances to a very large extent.

Photo of Mr Samuel Hoare Mr Samuel Hoare , Chelsea

Certainly we are endeavouring to get the local authorities to

use these emergency appliances for their peace-time needs if the necessity arises. However, I must not be drawn into that argument. The point is one that can be raised upon some later Clause or on the Third Reading of the Bill. I hope, with that explanation, and with a repetition of the statement that this is really only a formal stage, that the Committee will now be prepared to come to a decision.

4.51 p.m.

Photo of Mr Cecil Wilson Mr Cecil Wilson , Sheffield, Attercliffe

A week ago I put a question to the Minister of Health asking him to state for each county in England and Wales the number of parishes and the number of those in which there is no piped water supply. The answer shows that in the following counties over 50 per cent. of the parishes have no piped water supply: Cornwall, 55 per cent.; Devon, 55 per cent.; Hereford, 71 per cent.; Leicester, 62 per cent.; Lincolnshire (Lindsey), 54 per cent.; Northampton, 76 per cent.; Oxford, 52 per cent.; Rutland, 63 per cent.; Salop, 51 per cent.; Southampton, 51 per cent.; and West Suffolk, 56 per cent. There are also some in Wales with over 5o per cent. In view of the large number of parishes which are in this position, it seems a little strange to be making this demand upon local authorities.

Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 223; Noes, 126.

Division No. 267.]AYES.[4.52 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J.Burton, Col. H. W.Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil)
Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr, P. G.Campbell, Sir E. T.Dawson, Sir P.
Albery, Sir IrvingCary, R. A.De la Bère, R.
Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead)Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)Denman, Hon. R. D.
Anderson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Sc'h Univ's)Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n)Doland, G. F.
Anstruther-Gray, W. J.Chapman, Sir S. (Edinburgh, S.)Donner, P. W.
Apsley, LordChorlton, A. E. L.Dorman-Smith, Major Sir R. H.
Aske, Sir R. W.Christie, J. A.Drewe, C.
Assheton, R.Clydesdale, Marqueuss ofDuckworth, W. R. (Moss Side)
Astor, Viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton)Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston)Dugdale, Captain T. L.
Astor, Hon. W. W. (Fulham, E.)Colfox, Major W. P.Duncan, J. A. L.
Baldwin-Webb, Col. J.Colville, Rt. Hon. JohnDunglass, Lord
Balfour, G. (Hampstead)Conant, Captain R. J. E.Eckersley P. T.
Barelay-Harvey, Sir C. M.Cook, Sir T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.)Edmondson, Major Sir J.
Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h)Cooke, J. D. (Hammersith, S.)Ellis, Sir G.
Beit, Sir A. L.Cooper, Rt. Hn. A. Duff (W'st'r S. G'gs)Elliston, Capt. G. S.
Birchall, Sir J. D.Courthope, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir G. L.Elmley, Viscount
Bossom, A. C.Cox, H. B. TrevorEmmott, C. E. G. C
Boulton, W. W.Cranborne, ViscountEmrys-Evans, P. V.
Bower, Comdr. R. T.Craven-Ellis, W.Entwistle, Sir C. F.
Boyce, H. LeslieCrooke, Sir J. SmedleyErskine-Hill, A. G.
Brass, Sir W.Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C.Evans, Capt. A. (Cardiff, S)
Briscoe, Capt. R. G.Crossley, A. C.Fox, Sir G. W. G
Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham)Crowder, J. F. E.Fremantle, Sir F. E.
Bull, B. B.Culverwell, C. T.Furness, S. N.
Fyfe, D. P. M.MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G.Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)
Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir J.M'Connell, Sir J.Salmon, Sir I.
Gluckstein, L. H.McCorquodale, M. S.Salt, E. W.
Glyn, Major Sir R. G. C.Macdonald, Capt. T. (lsle of Wight)Samuel, M. R. A.
Gower, Sir R. V.Maclay, Hon. J. P.Sandeman, Sir N. S.
Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral)Macnamara, Major J. R. J.Sanderson, Sir F. B.
Grant-Ferris, R.Macquisten, F. A.Scott, Lord William
Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester)Magnay, T.Selley, H. R.
Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J.Maitland, A.Shakespeare, G. H.
Gridley, Sir A. B.Makins, Brigadier-General Sir ErnestShaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree)
Grigg, Sir E. W. M.Manningham-Buller, Sir M.Shepperson, Sir E. W.
Guest, Hon. I. (Brecon and Radnor)Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A.
Guest, Maj. Hon. O. (C'mb'rw'll, N.W.)Marsden, Commander A.Smiles, Lieut.-Colonel Sir W. D.
Gunston, Capt. Sir D. W.Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)
Hambro, A. V.Meller, Sir R. J. (Mitcham)Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)
Harvey, Sir G.Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)Smithers, Sir W.
Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)Somervell, Rt. Hon. Sir Donald
Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton)Mitcheson, Sir G. G.Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Hely-Hutchinson, M. R.Morgan, R. H.Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J.
Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P.Morris-Jones, Sir HenrySpears, Brigadier-General E. L.
Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan-Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'l'd)
Hepworth, J.Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester)Stourton, Major Hon. J. J.
Herbert, Capt. Sir S. (Abbey)Munro, P.Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.)
Higgs, W. F.Neven-Spence, Major B. H. H.Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)
Hoare, Rt. Hon. Sir S.Nicholson, G. (Farnham)Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'h)
Holdsworth, H.Nicolson, Hon. H. G.Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Hopkinson, A.Palmer, G. E. H.Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F.
Hore-Belisha, Rt. Hon. L.Peake, O.Tasker, Sir R. I.
Howitt, Dr. A. B.Petherick, M.Tate, Mavis C.
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)Pickthorn, K. W. M.Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.)
Hume, Sir G. H.Ponsonby, Col. C. E.Thomas, J. P. L.
Jones, Sir H. Haydn (Merioneth)Porritt, R. W.Thorneycroft, G. E. P.
Jones, L. (Swansea W.)Pownall, Lt.-Col. Sir AsshetonTitchfield, Marquess of
Keeling, E. H.Procter, Major H. A.Touche, G. C.
Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.)Raikes, H. V. A. M.Tree, A. R. L. F.
Keyes, Admiral of the Fleet Sir R.Ramsay, Captain A. H. M.Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.
Lamb, Sir J. Q.Ramsden, Sir E.Turton, R. H.
Lambert, Rt. Hon. G.Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)Wallace, Capt. Rt. Hon. Euan
Law, Sir A. J. (High Peak)Reed, A. C. (Exeter)Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)
Leighton, Major B. E. P.Reed, Sir H. S. (Aylesbury)Wardlaw-Milne, Sir J. S.
Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L.Reid, J. S. C. (Hillhead)Warrender Sir V.
Lewis, O.Reid, W. Allan (Derby)Waterhouse, Captain C.
Lindsay, K. MRemer, J. R.Wedderburn, H. J. S.
Lipson, D. L.Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)Whiteley, Major J. P. (Buckingham)
Little, Sir E. GrahamRobinson, J. R. (Blackpool)Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J.Ropner, Colonel L.Withers, Sir J. J.
Lloyd, G. W.Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)Womersley, Sir W. J.
Locker-Lampson, Comdr. O. S.Rowlands, G.Wood, Hon. C. I. C.
Lyons, A. M.Royds, Admiral Sir P. M. R.
Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)Russell, Sir AlexanderTELLERS POR THE AYES.—
Captain Hope and Mr. Grimston.
Acland, R. T. D. (Barnstaple)Dunn, E. (Rother Valley)Kirby, B. V.
Adams, D. (Consett)Ede, J. C.Lansbury, Rt. Hon. G.
Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.)Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)Lathan, G.
Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'Isbr.)Findlay, Sir E.Lawson, J. J.
Ammon, C. G.Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.Leach, W.
Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.Foot, D. M.Lee, F.
Banfield, J. W.Gallacher, W.Leslie, J. R.
Barnes, A. J.Gardner, B. W.Logan, D. G.
Barr, J.Garro Jones, G. M.Lunn, W.
Batey, J.George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)Macdonald, G. (Ince)
Bellenger, F. J.Green, W. H. (Deptford)McEntee, V. La T.
Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W.Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.McGhee, H. G.
Benson, G.Grenfell, D. R.MacLaren, A.
Bevan, A.Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.)Maclean, N.
Broad, F. A.Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)MacNeill Weir, L.
Brown, C. (Mansfield)Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)Maxton, J.
Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire)Guest, Dr. L. H. (Islington, N.)Messer, F.
Buchanan, G.Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)Montague, F.
Cape, T.Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)Moreing, A. C.
Cassells, T.Hardie, AgnesMorrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)
Chater, D.Harris, Sir P. A.Naylor, T. E.
Cluse, W. S.Hayday, A.Noel-Baker, P. J.
Clynes, Rt. Hon. J. R.Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)Paling, W.
Collindridge, F.Henderson, J. (Ardwick)Parker, J.
Cripps, Hon. Sir StaffordHenderson, T. (Tradeston)Parkinson, J. A
Daggar, G.Hills, A. (Pontefract)Pearson, A
Dalton, H.Hopkin, D.Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W.
Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)Hunter, T.Pritt, D. N.
Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)John, W.Richards, R. (Wrexham)
Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)Jones, A. C. (Shipley)Salter, Dr. A. (Bermondsey)
Day, H.Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)Sanders, W. S.
Dobbie, W.Kennedy, Rt. Hon T.Sexton, T. M.
Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)Watkins, F. C.
Short, A.Stokes, R. R.Watson, W. McL.
Silkin, L.Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)Westwood, J.
Silverman, S. S.Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)White, H. Graham
Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)Thorne, W.Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)
Smith, E. (Stoke)Thurtle, E.Williams, T. (Don Valley)
Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees. (K'ly)Tinker, J. J.Wilson, C. H. (Attercliffe)
Smith, T. (Normanton)Tomlinson, G.Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)
Sorensen, R. W.Viant, S. P.Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)
Stephen, C.Walkden, A. G.
Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)Walker, J.TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Mr. Mathers and Mr. Anderson.

Question, "That this Schedule, as amended, be the First Schedule to the Bill," put, and agreed to.