Clause 1. — (Salaries payable in respect of certain Administrative Offices of State.)

Part of Orders of the Day — Ministers of the Crown Bill. – in the House of Commons at on 28 April 1937.

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Photo of Viscount  Turnour Viscount Turnour , Horsham and Worthing

I rise only for the purpose of saying something that I might have said if I had interrupted the right hon. Gentleman opposite. I am not concerned with the general principle, which was settled on the Second Reading of the Bill, and I hope that no one will think that I am making any unfair comment on the speeches that have been made when I say that in effect we have had another Second Reading discussion. All the arguments that have been used are arguments for or against the principle of raising salaries. I rise for the purpose of correcting a wrong expression used by the right hon. Gentleman opposite. He used the very interesting argument that we are not in fact levelling up the salaries of Cabinet Ministers, because it is impossible for the draftsman to devise any form of Bill which would equalise the salaries from the point of view of the expenses which the Ministers incur. Surely, the right hon. Gentleman has forgotten the Government Hospitality Fund. I do not know whether he realises or whether the Committee realise the extent to which that fund is used, and very properly used, for entertainment. I was in the House when the proposal for this fund was first brought forward, and there was very much the same sort of discussion then that we are having on this Bill. Some people said that it was an invidious principle to enable Ministers to entertain people at public expense. The fact was that up to the establishment of that fund Ministers had no public fund from which a penny could be spent for entertainments.

The Government Hospitality Fund deals with nearly all the cases of entertaining to which the right hon. Gentleman referred. The Foreign Secretary, the Colonial Secretary, the Dominions Secretary, give entertainments on a large scale, such as luncheons, dinners and receptions, at the expense, and very properly so, of the Government Hospitality Fund. Equally, I should not be surprised to hear that Ministers at conferences are provided with funds, perfectly properly, to provide for entertainment. Therefore, the right hon. Gentleman cannot draw the differentiation which he sought to do. A great many offices which the right hon. Gentleman did not mention one might call the offices of internal administration. If his argument was sound in regard to the expenses incurred by certain Ministers in giving luncheons, dinners, and so on, it is as a question of policy just as important for the President of the Board of Trade, the President of the Board of Education, and the Minister of Agriculture as for the Ministers in the external offices.

Therefore, one cannot make differentiation, and we come back to the argument which I understand is the main argument of the Government that, broadly speaking, the fairest and the most just proposal is to pay the heads of the big administrative Departments the same salary, and to add to that principle one further charge upon the taxpayer, that is, to give a uniform salary for all Cabinet Ministers. The justification for this course may be understood if I give one personal reference. When I was Under-Secretary of State for India it was customary for the Parliamentary Under-Secretary, representing the Secretary of State in this House, to have access to practically all Cabinet papers. That was necessary in order to carry on his duties in this House. Seeing those papers, I came to the conclusion that to read and fully apprehend all the issues put before the Cabinet is in itself a whole-time job, apart from any Departmental administrative duties. For that reason I support the payment of £5,000 to all Cabinet Ministers. The right hon. Gentleman opposite dealt with the matter in a tactful manner, but I think he was wrong in drawing the distinctions that he did.