Orders of the Day — Housing Bill.

– in the House of Commons on 16th May 1935.

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Order for Consideration, as amended (in the Standing Committee) read.

3.57 p.m.

Photo of Mr Edward Young Mr Edward Young , Sevenoaks

I beg to move, That the Bill be re-committed to a Committee of the whole House in respect of the Amendments in Clause 10, page 7, line 22, Clause 72, page 57, line 2, Clause 78, page 59, line 33, and Clause 85, page 63, line 16, and of the new Clause (Provisions as to apparatus of statutory undertakers in land dealt with by local authorities under the Housing Acts), and of the Amendment to the Title, standing on the Notice Paper in the name of Sir Hilton Young. This is almost entirely a routine Motion which involves no issue of any controversial nature. The necessity for the recommittal of the Bill arises in consequence of the fact that some of the Amendments and the Clauses which it is desired to introduce will involve in certain remote contingencies the possibility of a charge on the rates. For instance, one Amendment relating to the possible prosecution of a local authority might involve indirectly a charge in respect of legal expenses. Then as regards the Title of the Bill, a slight change has to be made and that can only be effected in Committee. The change in the Title is due to the fact that under Clause 13 the power in respect of re-development areas has been extended to all urban areas instead of only to a limited class of areas. The point to observe is that none of these matters in respect of which the Bill is to be recommitted involves any novelty for us, but they are all in respect of matters that are the result of agreement, arrangement and discussion in Committee upstairs.

4.0 p.m.

Photo of Mr Arthur Greenwood Mr Arthur Greenwood , Wakefield

The right hon. Gentleman has tried to minimise the importance of his Motion. He told us that it is a routine Motion, that it is not controversial and that there is no novelty in it. As a matter of fact, the right hon. Gentleman really ought not, in the very limited time suggested to be given to the Report stage and Third Reading, to have to inflict on the House a recommittal Motion, which, in a way, is either due to bad draftsmanship or to his not having taken into full consultation, and arrived at agreement with, the various interests concerned. I cannot accept his view that there is a remote contingency that there may be a charge upon the rates. It is an absolute certainty. Again, the alteration of the Title of the Bill is a very serious step to take in this House. The right hon. Gentleman really ought to have dealt with these questions before. It was not known until to-day that the Government were going to recommit the Bill. There is no escape from it now, because the right hon. Gentleman has burnt his boats, but I think he might, at least, have made a rather fuller explanation, because if the time arranged for the Report stage is to hold good, we shall not get a full explanation of the various changes which have necessitated an alteration of the Title of the Bill and its recommittal. I believe it would have been for the convenience of the House if the right hon. Gentleman had made a rather fuller statement, and explained in a little more detail the new Clauses and new Amendments which make it inevitable that the Bill should be re-committed. We enter our protest against the recommittal, and make it a charge against the Government that this Bill has been so ill-considered that they have had to recommit it.

4.3 p.m.

Photo of Sir Percy Harris Sir Percy Harris , Bethnal Green South West

This House has always regarded the recommittal of a Bill as rather a serious matter, and I must say I was rather surprised that the right hon. Gentleman brushed aside so lightly the necessity for this Motion. Financial Resolutions connected with Bills are historically important and are meant to have serious significance. I was also surprised that the right hon. Gentleman suggested the Motion was actually necessary because of some very remote contingency of an odd penny or two. I do not know whether it is really suggested that an odd penny or two would render the Amendments and new Clause necessary. The right hon. Gentleman emphasised the proposed Amendment to Clause 10. That Amendment suggests that it may be necessary for a prosecution to be instituted by the Attorney-General against a local authority. I assume that it would be an expensive prosecution involving the use of public funds. Surely the Attorney-General would not take the very exceptional procedure of prosecuting a local authority unless that local authority were very much at fault. The Government would be bound to win their case, and the local government would be responsible for the expenses. I think that is a reasonable assumption.

When I begin to study the Amendment it rather looks as if there is something more behind it. I have a vivid recollection of the discussions in Committee. Suggestions were made there that a large amount of overcrowding was permitted by local authorities in their dwellings, and among other local authorities there was mentioned no less an authority than the London County Council, and in particular, their estate at Becontree. They were charged with being particularly guilty of overcrowding. The charge was not completely true, but the suggestion was made. The Amendment might also apply to local authorities who do not enforce the provisions of the Bill against individuals, and permit overcrowding. We are entitled to know whether the Government really do think that prosecutions will be necessary on a very large scale indifferent parts of the country if these new provisions dealing with overcrowding are to be effective. The House of Commons ought not to pass a Motion of this kind unless it is quite clear what is its purpose, and what kind of expenditure is likely to be involved, and, if it really is only such a trivial thing as a few odd pence, I do suggest it is not really necessary to take this procedure.

4.7 p.m.

Photo of Sir Richard Denman Sir Richard Denman , Leeds Central

I think it would be a great convenience to the House if you would kindly elucidate the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman in introducing the Motion. He asserted that the need for recommittal arose because there were possibilities under this new provision that charges might be imposed upon the rates. Does it follow from that that all Amendments on the Paper involving a contingent charge on the rates are out of order on the Report stage?

Photo of Lieut-General Edward Fitzroy Lieut-General Edward Fitzroy , Daventry

Is the hon. Member asking me that question?

Photo of Sir Richard Denman Sir Richard Denman , Leeds Central

Yes, Sir. I thought you were the authority to answer it.

Photo of Lieut-General Edward Fitzroy Lieut-General Edward Fitzroy , Daventry

There are some Amendments on the Paper which, obviously, would make a charge, and I have ruled them out of order.

Photo of Sir Richard Denman Sir Richard Denman , Leeds Central

A charge on local funds?

Photo of Lieut-General Edward Fitzroy Lieut-General Edward Fitzroy , Daventry

A charge either on local funds or on national funds.

Photo of Sir Richard Denman Sir Richard Denman , Leeds Central

In those circumstances, I shall have to ask leave to submit an Amendment to the Motion now before the House, because I am sorry that I had not supposed that an Amendment merely throwing a charge on local funds required recommittal. Clause 61 is an extremely important Clause on which arise a number of highly important Amendments which have been put down by a variety of Members. Therefore, if I were in order, I would like to add Clause 61 to the Recommittal Motion.

4.9 p.m.

Photo of Lord Eustace Percy Lord Eustace Percy , Hastings

On the same point of Order. I have a Clause down in respect of compensation for owner-occupiers. It had, I confess, never struck me that under the Rules of this House it was out of order on the Report stage to impose a charge on local funds. If that be the case, I, like my hon. Friend, would ask leave to move an Amendment to recommit the Bill in respect of the new Clause standing in my name (Compensation for owner-occupier).

Photo of Lieut-General Edward Fitzroy Lieut-General Edward Fitzroy , Daventry

Does the hon. Member for Central Leeds (Mr. Denman) move his Amendment?

Photo of Sir Richard Denman Sir Richard Denman , Leeds Central

I beg to move, at the end, to add: and in respect of the Amendment in Clause 61, page 50, line 40, standing in the name of Mr. Denman. I hope that my right hon. Friend will accede to this Amendment. He will see its reasonableness, because there is a great deal of feeling about this Clause, which certainly ought to be discussed in the whole House as well as in Committee.

4.12 p.m.

Photo of Mr Edward Young Mr Edward Young , Sevenoaks

I would like to be able to meet my hon. Friend, but he will see that it is not possible for me to accept the Amendment to the Motion. The Amendment, as I understand it, is a kind of omnibus Amendment, which would have the effect of allowing him to move any Amendment to Clause 61. The only Amendments which would require such a Motion at the present time are Amendments involving the imposition of some fresh public charge under Clause 61, and I could not possibly at the present time accept that without knowing the implication of imposing any fresh charge other than such as His Majesty's Government are already prepared to move. It is well known that under our principles of legislation a fresh charge on the public purse must have the preliminary assent of the Crown in some form or another. I could not at the present time signify general assent to the acceptance of any fresh public charge on the rates or taxes under Clause 61 or any other Clause of which I have no notification or knowledge.

4.14 p.m.

Photo of Viscount  Turnour Viscount Turnour , Horsham and Worthing

I am afraid that my right hon. Friend has not, if I may use the phrase, fully apprehended the point at issue. By agreeing to the proposed Amendment to the Motion, he does not necessarily accept Amendments which the hon. Member may subsequently move to the Clause. It is not in his power to do so. It is a matter for the House. Under the procedure of the House, as you, Mr. Speaker, have made clear, it is impossible on the Report stage for any addition to be made to a public charge, even although it takes the form of an addition to the rates. It is possible, however, in the Committee stage for a private Member to propose an Amendment which would have the effect of adding to the charge on the rates. The right hon. Gentleman himself has moved to recommit the Bill in respect of certain proposals which he is about to bring forward, and I support him in that against the right hon. Gentleman opposite, because it is as a result of definite promises which he made in Committee. But as he has himself proposed a Motion to recommit the Bill in respect of certain financial charges which will be necessary in order to carry out his policy, I think he should permit my hon. Friend the Member for Central Leeds (Mr. Denman) and the Noble Lord the Member for Hastings (Lord E. Percy) to move the recommittal of the Bill in respect of these other two Clauses. That seems to be only fair. It does not commit the Minister to the acceptance of their proposals; it is merely a technical procedure in order to allow them to be moved. I have never heard of a Government bringing forward a recommittal Motion and, when an hon. Member wishes an addition to be made to it, saying "No, we are only going to recommit the Bill in respect of particular Clauses which we have named." I hope the right hon. Gentleman will reconsider his decision, because if he goes to a Division he will probably be defeated.

4.16 p.m.

Photo of Mr Edward Young Mr Edward Young , Sevenoaks

I really do find myself in a substantial difficulty about this matter. I have no knowledge at all of the nature of the Amendment which the hon. Member for Central Leeds (Mr. Denman) desires to move, and the House will understand the very grave sense of responsibility which a Minister must feel in opening the door to a proposal to impose further charges, even on the rates, on the Report stage, when the matter, as far as I know, has not been advanced in debate in the preliminary stages. Nevertheless, I am most reluctant at this early stage of our proceedings to close any door upon any discussion which the House desires to have on the Bill, and as I see that there is a genuine feeling that the Amendment proposed by my hon. Friend—

Photo of Dr Christopher Addison Dr Christopher Addison , Swindon

Not at all—not on this side.

Photo of Mr Edward Young Mr Edward Young , Sevenoaks

The right hon. Gentleman will perhaps allow me to think that I have detected what I may call a "sensation" in the House. I shall be happy to withdraw the opposition to the hon. Gentleman on the understanding that it is recognised that it really is a grave matter to extend are committal Motion.

4.18 p.m.

Photo of Dr Christopher Addison Dr Christopher Addison , Swindon

I would call attention to the facility with which, in spite of his objection, the right hon. Gentleman falls in with this very dangerous suggestion. The particular Clause to which the Amendment refers is one which in our view, although we represent a small minority, involves an increase in the compensation payable on the acquisition of property which has been condemned, which we regard as very objectionable indeed. Like the right hon. Gentleman, I do not know what the hon. Member is going to propose, but so far as I apprehend it the only result of such a Clause would be to increase the compensation payable in those cases, and to that we object. I suggest that it is an unprecedented thing on Report stage, with no notice on the Order Paper, suddenly to move to recommit a Bill in regard to a matter which may involve great public expense. I think it is a most objectionable

precedent which the right hon. Gentleman is setting up.

Question put, "That those words be there added."

The House divided: Ayes, 262; Noes, 50.

Division No. 195.]AYES.[4.20 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-ColonelDuckworth, George A. V.Leighton, Major B. E. P.
Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.)Dugdale, Captain Thomas LionelLennox-Boyd, A. T.
Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G.Duggan, Hubert JohnLevy, Thomas
Albery, Irving JamesDuncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)Lindsay, Kenneth (Kilmarnock)
Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (L'pool, W.)Eden, Rt. Hon. AnthonyLlewellyn, Jones, Frederick
Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd.)Elliot, Rt. Hon. WalterLloyd, Geoffrey
Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent)Ellis, Sir R. GeoffreyLocker-Lampson, Rt. Hn. G. (Wd. Gr'n)
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.Elliston, Captain George SampsonLockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.)
Anstruther-Gray, W. J.Emmott, Charles E. G. C.Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander
Applin, Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K.Emrys-Evans, P. V.MacAndrew, Lieut.-Col. C. G. (Partick)
Assheton, RalphEntwistle, Cyril FullardMacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)
Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick WolfeErskine-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Blackpool)McCorquodale, M. S.
Atholl, Duchess ofEvans, Capt. Arthur (Cardiff, S.)MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)
Bailey, Eric Alfred GeorgeEvans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univ.)Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. StanleyEvans, R. T. (Carmarthen)McEwen, Captain J. H. F.
Balniel, LordFermoy, LordMcKeag, William
Barclay-Harvey, C. M.Fielden, Edward BrocklehurstMaclay, Hon. Joseph Paton
Beauchamp, Sir Brograve CampbellFleming, Edward LascellesMcLean, Major Sir Alan
Belt, Sir Alfred L.Flint, Abraham JohnMcLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)
Benn, Sir Arthur ShirleyFord, Sir Patrick J.Macquisten, Frederick Alexander
Bernays, RobertFox, Sir GiffordMakins, Brigadier-General Ernest
Blindell, JamesFremantle, Sir FrancisManningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M.
Bossom, A. C.Galbraith, James Francis WallaceMargesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.
Boulton, W. W.Ganzoni, Sir JohnMarsden, Commander Arthur
Bowater, Col. Sir T. VansittartGillett, Sir George MastermanMayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John
Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir JohnMeller, Sir Richard James (Mitcham)
Boyce, H. LeslieGlossop, C. W. H.Mellor, Sir J. S. P.
Brass, Captain Sir WilliamGluckstein, Louis HalleMills, Sir Frederick (Leyton, E.)
Broadbent, Colonel JohnGlyn, Major Sir Ralph G. C.Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)
Brocklebank, C. E. R.Goff, Sir ParkMolson, A. Hugh Elsdale
Brown, Ernest (Leith)Goldie, Noel B.Moore, Lt.-Col. Thomas C. R. (Ayr)
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks., Newb'y)Goodman, Colonel Albert W.Morgan, Robert H.
Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.Gower, Sir RobertMorris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)
Bullock,-Captain MalcolmGraham, Sir F. Fergus (C'mb'rl'd, N.)Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univer'ties)
Burgin, Dr. Edward LeslieGretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. JohnMuirhead, Lieut.-Colonel A. J.
Burnett, John GeorgeGrigg, Sir EdwardMunro, Patrick
Burton, Colonel Henry WalterGrimston, R. V.Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.
Campbell, Sir Edward Taswell (Brmly)Guinness, Thomas L. E. B.Norie-Miller, Francis
Caporn, Arthur CecilGunston, Captain D. W.North, Edward T.
Carver, Major William H.Guy, J. C. MorrisonNunn, William
Castlereagh, ViscountHacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.Orr Ewing, I. L.
Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)Hales, Harold K.Patrick, Colin M.
Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)Peake, Osbert
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord HughHanbury, CecilPearson, William G.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.)Hannon, Patrick Joseph HenryPeat, Charles U.
Chapman, Col. R. (Houghton-le-Spring)Harbord, ArthurPenny, Sir George
Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.)Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.Percy, Lord Eustace
Chorlton, Alan Ernest LeofricHenderson, Sir Vivian L. (Chelmsford)Perkins, Walter R. D.
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston SpencerHerbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)Petherick, M.
Clarry, Reginald GeorgeHerbert, Capt. S. (Abbey Division)Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Clayton, Sir ChristopherHills, Major Rt. Hon. John WallerPickthorn, K. W. M.
Cobb, Sir CyrilHoldsworth, HerbertPike, Cecil F.
Colfox, Major William PhilipHore-Belisha, LesliePowell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H.
Collins, Rt. Hon. Sir GodfreyHornby, FrankPownall, Sir Assheton
Colman, N. C. D.Horobin, Ian M.Ramsden, Sir Eugene
Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J.Horsbrugh, FlorenceReid Capt. A. Cunningham-
Conant, R. J. E.Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)Reid, James S. C. (Stirling)
Cook, Thomas A.Hudson, Robert Spear (Southport)Reid, William Allan (Derby)
Cooke, DouglasHurst, Sir Gerald B.Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U.
Cooper, A. DuffIveagh, Countess ofRickards, George William
Copeland, IdaJackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.)Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)
Courthope, Colonel Sir George L.Jackson, J. C. (Heywood & Radcliffe)Robinson, John Roland
Cranborne, ViscountJamieson, DouglasRopner, Colonel L.
Critchley, Brig.-General A. C.Jones, Lewis (Swansea, West)Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)
Crooke, J. SmedleyKer, J. CampbellRussell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Crookshank, Col. C. de Windt (Bootle)Kimball, LawrenceRussell, Hamer Field (Sheffield, B'tside)
Crossley, A. C.Knox, Sir AlfredRussell, R. J. (Eddisbury)
Culverwell, Cyril TomLamb, Sir Joseph OuintonRutherford, John (Edmonton)
Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)Lambert, Rt. Hon. GeorgeSalmon, Sir Isidore
Davison, Sir William HenryLaw, Sir AlfredSamuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham)
Denman, Hon. R. D.Leckle, J. A.Samuel, M. R. A. (W'ds'wth, Putney)
Despencer-Robertson, Major J. A. F.Leech, Dr. J. W.Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard
Doran, EdwardLees-Jones, JohnSandys, Duncan
Savery, ServingtonStones, JamesWatt, Major George Steven H.
Salley, Harry R.Stourton, Hon. John J.Wedderburn, Henry James Scrymgeour-
Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.Strickland, Captain W. F.Wells, Sydney Richard
Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)
Shepperson, Sir Ernest W.Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir Murray F.Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D.Sugden, Sir Wilfrid HartWinterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Smithers, Sir WaldronSutcliffe, HaroldWomersley, Sir Walter
Somervell, Sir DonaldTate, Mavis ConstanceWood, Rt. Hon. Sir H. Kingsley
Somervell, Annesley A. (Windsor)Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)Worthington, Dr. John V.
Soper, RichardThomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'v'noaks)
Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)Young, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.)
Southby, Commander Archibald R. J.Todd, A. L. S. (Kingswinford)
Spencer, Captain Richard A.Wallace, Sir John (Dunfermline)TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Spender-Clay, Rt. Hon. Herbert H.Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)Lieut.-Colonel Sir A. Lamber
Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'morland)Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)Ward and Captain Hope
Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.
NOES.
Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. ChristopherGrenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)Mason, David M. (Edinburgh, E.)
Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G.Griffiths, George A. (Yorks, W. Riding)Maxton, James
Attlee, Clement RichardGrundy, Thomas W.Parkinson, John Allen
Banfield, John WilliamHall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil)Pickering, Ernest H.
Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale)Harris, Sir PercyRea, Walter Russell
Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield)Hicks, Ernest GeorgeSamuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)
Cleary, J. J.Jenkins, Sir WilliamSmith, Tom (Normanton)
Cocks, Frederick SeymourJohn, WilliamStrauss, G. R. (Lambeth, North)
Cove, William G.Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)Thorne, William James
Cripps, Sir StaffordJones, Morgan (Caerphilly)Tinker, John Joseph
Daggar, GeorgeLawson, John JamesWedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)Leonard, WilliamWhite, Henry Graham
Davies, Stephen OwenLogan, David GilbertWilliams, David (Swansea, East)
Dobbie, WilliamLunn, WilliamWilliams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly)
Edwards, CharlesMacdonald, Gordon (Ince)Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)
Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin)McEntee, Valentine L.
Gardner, Benjamin WalterMainwaring, William HenryTELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Greenwood, Rt. Hon. ArthurMander, Geoffrey le M.Mr. Groves and Mr. Paling.

4.29 p.m.

Photo of Lord Eustace Percy Lord Eustace Percy , Hastings

I beg to move, after the words last added, to add: and of the new Clause (Compensation for owner occupier) standing in the name of Lord Eustace Percy. I will not detain the House by arguing this Amendment. I hope the Minister will not oppose it.

4.30 p.m.

Photo of Mr Arthur Greenwood Mr Arthur Greenwood , Wakefield

I am bound to enter an emphatic protest against these proceedings. So far as I am aware, the procedure is entirely new. We have opened the door in one Amendment to a rediscussion of compensation for slum landlords; we are to open it again in this new Amendment. We are supposed to be having Thursday, a short day on Friday, and Monday, to complete the stages of the Bill. That time is all too short, in any event. Nobody can charge me with having pursued obstructionist tactics on Committee. We played a perfectly reasonable game on Standing Committee. We protested against the allowance of three days, and now, at the very last minute in the House, we are to reopen discussion of the Bill, and upon a new Clause. I am bound to say that this is making the procedure of the House a farce, and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not pursue this course. Had we known that the Bill was to be recommitted and that we could move Amendments to increase the charge, we should have more Amendments on the Paper than we have there now; but we followed Parliamentary precedent, and tried to avoid putting Amendments down which we regarded as inevitably out of order.

Hon. Members who defy the Rules of the House can put down Amendments which are obviously out of order, and, because the right hon. Gentleman recommits the Bill, can have them discussed in the House in a way which is absolutely out of accordance with Parliamentary custom. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman does not intend to accept this principle, because, if he does, I shall take the earliest possible moment of moving the adjournment of the Debate. The Government have acted scandalously in this business. It was very bad for the right hon. Gentleman to accept the first Amendment, but it is even worse when the second is moved because, logically, he cannot resist now. It will be open to any of us now to keep the Debate going all day by moving Amendments of this kind. The principle having been accepted, it will be difficult for the right hon. Gentleman not to accept the re-committal of the whole Bill. Perhaps that might have been the best way out of the difficulty—to re-commit the Bill and let us start afresh. I speak for my hon. Friends on this side of the House; we feel it is an abuse of all the Standing Orders that, at this stage, special vested interests should get an opportunity for re-discussing questions which have Already been fully discussed on Standing Committee, and which would normally be out of order on the Report stage.

4.34 p.m.

Photo of Sir Percy Harris Sir Percy Harris , Bethnal Green South West

I have a shrewd suspicion that the House is very puzzled at what we have been doing for the last quarter of an hour. Hon. Members who were Members of the Committee will remember that we had a very protracted discussion on all the Clauses with reference to compensation. The right hon. Gentleman, to his credit, gave a very clear and wise lead to the Committee, and kept the Committee on an even keel. He realised how far the Bill could be extended, in order to give compensation. Now, after we have considered the problem in detail in Committee, we are suddenly to have the whole problem reopened on such a scale that if the Motion be passed—I know the attitude of certain Members of the House—we may find the cost of slum clearance so largely increased that all prospect of the speedy completion of the right hon. Gentleman's great scheme will be held up. This is not merely a matter which concerns the taxpayers or any charge on public funds for which we are responsible, but it concerns also the liability on local rates. In the north of England, particularly, large numbers of local authorities would like to see a really forward policy of slum clearance, but they are shy of going ahead because of the heavy burden upon their rates. By the change in procedure, made on the initiative of two private Members, although we have already made large and substantial concessions in the Bill, the cost of the right hon. Gentleman's slum clearance scheme in some parts of the country may become prohibitive. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be firm this time. He showed a firm front in the first instance, and he should not give way to the wiles and the charms of the Noble Lord. I know that the two hon. Members are very important and that they are ex-Ministers of great influence, but I hope that the Minister, with the knowledge which is at his disposal, will stick to his guns and resist the Amendment.

4.37 p.m.

Photo of Sir Richard Denman Sir Richard Denman , Leeds Central

I must add a word to correct what might be a most vicious misrepresentation. I am accused of moving an Amendment which would add to the cost of slum clearance and might wreck the whole of the scheme. In fact, the Amendment which we have leave to discuss is merely an Amendment to add to the compensation of owner occupiers, a very poor and deserving class. They are very poor people, whom hon. Members of the Opposition used to think in the last Parliament they represented, but whom they appear to have forgotten completely. I hope the Noble Lord's Amendment will be agreed to, and that we shall be able to get on to the business.

4.38 p.m.

Photo of Mr Edward Young Mr Edward Young , Sevenoaks

I hope there is no misapprehension in the mind of my hon. Friend the Member for Central Leeds (Mr. Denman) or any other hon. Member. I have pronounced no opinion on the merits of the Amendment, and I am certainly very far from undertaking to accept it. I do not grudge the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood)the opportunity of making a little trouble at the beginning of these proceedings. [HON. MEMBERS: "Who started it?] I trust very much that he did not mean it, and that his action will not have that result. For the right hon. Gentleman to say that there has been any misuse of the procedure of the House of Commons is a remarkable statement. Our procedure is in the hands of Mr. Speaker, who has allowed certain Motions to be put. I indicated the attitude of the Government towards those Motions. There is no more impropriety on this occasion than on any other occasion.

The Government have adopted a certain procedure in order to carryout a number of undertakings and arrangements which were made in Committee. Two Members of the House arose and drew attention to the fact that there were Amendments in their names on subjects of interest which could only be discussed if they were admitted into the Motion put down by the Government. The Government then said that, in order to meet what seemed the general sense of the House, they would be prepared to extend the procedure which they were adopting to these Amendments, in order to admit the discussion which the two Members desired to raise. I indicated my assent to that course on behalf of the Government. I am perfectly confident that in doing so I was carrying out the general wish of the House, and I am sure that we can trust to the good sense of the House not to waste further time when we are seeking to extend the scope of the Bill.

4.41 p.m.

Photo of Mr Tom Smith Mr Tom Smith , Normanton

The right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Health, in a charming manner, has tried to get himself out of the tangle. I am compelled to say one or two things. The trouble to which he has referred is because we on this side of the House are jealous of the rules of procedure, and we regard what has been done to-day as something which would make those rules absolutely ridiculous so far as the Bill is concerned. With regard to suggestions of prejudice, the hon. Member for Central Leeds (Mr. Denman) managed to snarl out a few sentences and said that during the lifetime of the last Labour Government similar proceedings to this were followed. I challenge him to tell the House when similar things were done during the lifetime of the last Labour Government, and, if they were, whether he protested on those occasions.

With regard to the procedure. Hon. Members who were on the Committee for the full 20 days will agree that there was a full and adequate discussion of the points in question. It appears tome that some of those Members who wish to increase the charges on the local authorities to go into the hands of property owners were not satisfied with the treatment which they received in Committee, and they wish to renew the discussion on Report stage. I join in the protest which has been made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood). The House is seeing to-day how ill-conceived the Bill has been. The Minister would have been better advised, instead of accepting the Amendments to have withdrawn the Motion for recommittal, and come back to the House only when he knew exactly what he had in mind.

4.43 p.m.

Photo of Dr Christopher Addison Dr Christopher Addison , Swindon

I would add my protest to that of my right hon. Friend, and I would appeal to the Minister in the interests of the procedure of the House, which is of much more importance than party divisions. This is a case in which, had it not been for the Motion on the Paper, the Amendments would not have been called by Mr. Speaker, because they would have been out of order, according to the procedure of the House. The intention and the purpose of the proposed procedure is to secure that certain matters may be discussed in Committee and be in order in Committee. Those matters were discussed in Committee at great length, I understand, and were in order. It is now not in order to discuss them on the Report stage, and the Amendments would automatically have been ruled out of order on that account. If this procedure is to become part of the procedure of the House, it will be open to any Member to take advantage of it, because you, Mr. Speaker, quite properly, accept a Motion which is in order. If this principle is to be adopted by the Government or by any subsequent Government, it knocks the bottom out of our existing procedure, the whole purpose of which is to limit the discussion on the Report stage to matters which were not adequately dealt with in Committee, and which, according to our rules, are in order on Report stage. But by the action of the right hon. Gentleman the whole intention of the procedure of the House of Commons is set at nought, and any one, anywhere, can get up at this stage and move an Amendment to recommit a Bill which will reopen practically the whole of the contentious parts of the Measure. Apart entirely from the merits of the question and in the interests of the procedure of this House, I would appeal to the right hon. Gentleman not to accept this Amendment.

4.46 p.m.

Photo of Mr Austen Chamberlain Mr Austen Chamberlain , Birmingham West

I do not want, and I do not think it would be proper, to discuss the merits of the Amendment which the acceptance of the Motion before the House would enable to be moved. But what brings me to my feet is the astounding assertion of the two right hon. Gentlemen that the resolution would interfere with the rules of procedure. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] The right hon. Gentlemen say that, if the Bill is recommitted in respect of certain Clauses, we destroy the whole purpose of our procedure.

Photo of Dr Christopher Addison Dr Christopher Addison , Swindon

May I with great respect—and I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will allow me—say he has misunderstood the point. The point at issue does not concern the Motion on the Paper which we fully understand; it is the acceptance by the Government of Amendments which are not even on the Paper and which are not even in manuscript, moved indiscriminately in any part of the House in respect of the recommital of the Bill.

Photo of Mr Austen Chamberlain Mr Austen Chamberlain , Birmingham West

The right hon. Gentleman's objection is confined to the fact that he had no notice of the Amendment of my right hon. Friend. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] It was not what he said in his speech. After all, the Report stage is the opportunity for the House to review the work of the Committee. When the whole House sits in Committee—and all of us have an opportunity of taking part in the Committee stage—the work of the Committee is often, I think, better done—it is generally admirably done, but there are a great many of us who may not have sat in Committee and who may wish to raise some matter to the consideration of which we feel we have something to contribute. But there are certain questions which for technical reasons cannot be raised on the Report stage and can only be raised in Committee. If there is any Amendment sought to be moved which involves a charge to the taxpayer or ratepayer, the Government may have to recommit the whole Bill in order that certain promises which they gave in Committee may be fulfilled. Therefore, the two hon. Members ask that the matters which they raise should stand in exactly the same category. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] To say "no" does not make it otherwise. To regard such a course as an innovation must show an ignorance of Parliamentary procedure.

Photo of Mr Arthur Greenwood Mr Arthur Greenwood , Wakefield

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman how he justifies a procedure which permits Members of this House to put Amendments on the Paper which are obviously out of order on the Report stage and to take advantage of such a step to get a re-discussion in Committee of these questions.

Photo of Mr Austen Chamberlain Mr Austen Chamberlain , Birmingham West

If the Bill is recommitted in order that certain matters which would not be in order on Report may be reconsidered, what is there extraordinary in the hon. Members asking that the two matters which they raise shall have the same treatment.

4.51 p.m.

Photo of Sir Stafford Cripps Sir Stafford Cripps , Bristol East

May I draw the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to one inaccuracy in what he has put to the House. He says that these two Amendments are in the same category as the matters which are to be recommitted by the Government. On his own statement they are not. The matters which the Government tells us this recommittal is required to meet are matters to carry out undertakings that were given in Committee. It is necessary, they say, because that could not be done formally at the time, to recommit in order that those undertakings may be carried out. But there was no undertaking regarding these Amendments. In fact, as I understand it, they were both definitely turned down without any undertaking, and there is all the difference in the world between the Government asking as a matter of convenience for recommital in order that a matter may be put right haying regard to some undertaking which they have given, and their accepting an Amendment to re-introduce a discussion which normally would be completely out of order on the Report stage.

The right hon. Gentleman has a vastly longer experience than I have, but I do not know whether he knows of any precedent in which the Government on a recommittal motion have accepted Amendments from private Members on matters fully discussed on the Committee stage and turned down by the Government in Committee, in order that the whole thing may be re-discussed on the Report stage. It is clearly a departure from the spirit of those rules which he calls the technical rules of procedure. Really if these matters had been brought forward and put on the Order Paper, with a motion by the hon. Members for recommittal, the House would never have considered for a moment recommittal of the Measure and the Government would never have considered accepting recommittal. Surely the Noble Lord in these circumstances will not press the matter, because I do feel it is setting a very dangerous precedent, from which it may follow that if someone else gets up and asks for a Clause to be recommitted the right hon. Gentleman cannot refuse it. It would be in effect setting aside a technical rule of procedure. It would be better for the House to alter the Standing Orders of the House rather than to devise ways of getting round them.

4.55 p.m.

Photo of Lord Eustace Percy Lord Eustace Percy , Hastings

The hon. Gentleman has appealed to me to withdraw my Amendment. I shall certainly not do so. If it had been contended that it was impossible to impose a charge on local funds on the Report stage, that would have been a valid objection to my proceeding, but that is not what the hon. Gentleman has complained about. His contention is that, while the Government may put down a Motion for recommittal for the purpose of implementing promises given in Committee, a private Member is doing something improper when he tries on that Motion to raise an important Clause which had been already discussed in Committee.

Photo of Mr Arthur Greenwood Mr Arthur Greenwood , Wakefield

The recommittal Motion was put on the Paper this morning. This Amendment was put down before. Did not the Noble Lord know when he put the Amendment down that it would be out of order?

Photo of Lord Eustace Percy Lord Eustace Percy , Hastings

I did not. The right hon. Gentleman ought not to develop heat. This is a point of principle, but it is not a point on which the right hon. Gentleman should find it necessary to lose his temper. The hon. and learned Member for Bristol, East (Sir S. Cripps) has now raised a contention on principle that it is improper for a private Member to move to recommit a Bill in respect of an important financial provision.

Photo of Sir Stafford Cripps Sir Stafford Cripps , Bristol East

I did not suggest that it was improper to do anything of the sort. What I suggested was that it was not right to utilise the fact that the Government had got this recommittal Motion on the Paper, as they say, for the purpose of implementing a promise, in order to compel them to accept an Amendment which had the effect of recommitting something which was fully discussed in Committee.

Photo of Lord Eustace Percy Lord Eustace Percy , Hastings

Really, that is the hon. and learned Gentleman's only point—that I am taking advantage of the Government having put the Motion down. That is, in the strictest sense of the word, a technicality, an argument which is not worth answering. The hon. and learned Gentleman seems anxious to lay it down that in future no matter what a Committee may do upstairs this House shall not reconsider it if it relates to any important financial question and especially if it relates to compensation for any one of His Majesty's subjects in respect of the confiscation of his property. The hon. and learned Gentleman seems anxious that in this instance the claims of the owner-occupier shall not be considered. I am very determined that they shall be considered.

4.59 p.m.

Photo of Mr Herbert Samuel Mr Herbert Samuel , Darwen

I think we should realise what is the effect of the precedent which is being set to-day and how unfairly it treats various Members, one with another. The hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Sir P. Harris) who attended assiduously the sittings of the Committee put down Amendments to secure that Government contributions should be made not only in respect of new flats but of new houses. He did not put down his Amendment for the Report stage, because he knew that it was out of order, and therefore he is not able at this moment to move that it should be added to the Government Motion, and so have his Amendment or any similar Amendment carried forward to Committee stage on the back of the Government Motion. But the Noble Lord opposite, having putdown his Amendment because, he said, he did not know that it was out of order, the Government, having introduced this Motion for recommittal, add the Amendment of the Noble Lord who has just spoken. Other Members who did not put down Amendments because they knew it was out of order are excluded. That is obviously quite unsound. I am disposed to agree with the hon. and learned Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps) that if there is to be a change in procedure it ought to be made by alteration in Standing Orders. It ought to be made a general rule. It may be right or it may be wrong—it is a matter for consideration—but to make these arbitrary distinctions seems to me to be a very improper use of procedure.

5.2 p.m.

Photo of Viscount  Turnour Viscount Turnour , Horsham and Worthing

I invite the right hon. Gentleman to say who is making these arbitrary decisions? His speech sounds very much like an attack on the procedure of the House and the Chair. An Amendment is before the House for the House to decide on. The House will decide what it is going to do. Who are the people who are making arbitrary distinctions? I was very surprised to hear the right hon. Gentleman's speech. I was not in the least surprised to hear that of the hon. and learned Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps). It is in accord with the perfectly sincere programme which he is carrying out in the country and in the House to take away from private Members every right they possess; and to govern the House by some system of Order-in-Council. I think that before the right hon. Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel) delivers such a speech he should tell us who he is attacking? I regard his speech as a most sinister one. Who are these mysterious authorities who are introducing a new principle into the procedure of the House? Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will enlighten us. The Government, in saying that they will accept an Amendment to a Motion which has been put from the Chair, are not introducing a new element in the procedure of the House. How can they be? I am in complete doubt as to what the right hon. Gentleman means.

5.4 p.m.

Photo of Mr Thomas Williams Mr Thomas Williams , Don Valley

I like to hear the Noble Lord suggesting that right hon. and hon. Members sitting on these benches or even the right hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway are anxious to take private Members' time when the Noble Lord's Government have taken every moment of private Members' time during the whole of this Parliamentary Session. It is rather late in the day for the Noble Lord to come along and suggest that we are taking private Members' time. The right hon. Member for Nest Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain), to whom I am always prepared to listen on matters of procedure, seems to me for once at all events to have made a very bad slip. I have always listened very intently to the right hon. Gentleman where matters of procedure are concerned, and in 99 cases out of 100 I should be prepared to follow him. But by now I think that the right hon. Gentleman must confess that he was wrong when he intervened in this Debate. He was challenged to remind us of any precedent, and he has failed to produce one. The Minister has not suggested any date or incident when a precedent may have been established. It does not follow necessarily that because we are creating a precedent that precedent must be a bad one, but, as my hon. and learned Friend the Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps) and the right hon. Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel) said, the only right hon. Member in the House who is obtaining any advantage as a result of creating a very doubtful precedent is the Noble Lord who apparently misunderstood the Rules of the House. That seems to me to be an extraordinary situation and more so in view of the fact that those of us who sit on these benches are always charged with wanting to introduce revolutionary ideas either in this House or outside.

There may be good cause for the Minister having adopted the attitude he adopted this afternoon, but for the convenience of those Members who were not in the House I might recall that he confessed at the commencement that he was suffering under a grave disadvantage. He was not aware that these Amendments were to be moved this afternoon. He was not aware that these responsible Members of his own party—the ex-Minister of Education must be so regarded—were going to take advantage of his Motion on the Order Paper. It seems to me that those Members who really want to support the Minister and to preserve the best that is in the Standing Orders of this House must support our view. If, as my hon. and learned Friend truly said, it is time to change the Standing Orders so as to extend the privileges of private Members, that ought to be done by the appropriate committee, the committee that deals with procedure in this House, and not in the slipshod, happy-go-lucky, very devious fashion which is being adopted this afternoon. We suggest to the Noble Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton) that when next he refers to hon. Members on these benches pilfering private Members' time he will not hesitate to put the point of view—as I know he has done in the past—that his own Government have taken every moment of private Members' time during the whole of this Parliamentary Session.

5.7 p.m.

Photo of Sir Mervyn Manningham-Buller Sir Mervyn Manningham-Buller , Northampton

On this very complicated matter, as one who sat at nearly every sitting of the Committee upstairs and who has followed this Debate very closely, I must say that I can come to only one conclusion. I regret the action taken by the Minister in accepting the Amendment. I think that the whole House will realise that the Minister was put in an exceedingly difficult position. A complicated and technical question was put to him to answer at short notice, but I cannot help thinking that if he had had a longer time to consider this very involved question his answer might have been different. It

seems to me that there is all the difference in the world between recommitting the Bill for the purpose of carrying out some general agreement which was arrived at in Committee and recommitting the Bill to reconsider something which has already been fully discussed and decided in Committee. It seems to me that before that action is taken a very strong reason should be brought before the House as to why a matter which has been decided in Committee should be reopened for discussion in this House. I cannot help feeling that the Minister made a mistake, which I think a great many people on the spur of the moment would probably have fallen into, but, if this is to be looked on as a precedent, it may lead to a great many difficulties in regard to future Bills, which really will have arisen over a slight misunderstanding. I hope that this Motion will not be taken as a precedent for the future, and that the whole. House will realise that it may possibly be a mistake.

Question, put, "That those words be there added."

The House divided: Ayes, 258; Noes, 55.

Division No. 196.]AYES.[5.10 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-ColonelChapman, Col. H. (Houghton-le-Spring)Fox, Sir Gifford
Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.)Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.)Fremantle, Sir Francis
Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G.Chorlton, Alan Ernest LeofricGalbraith, James Francis Wallace
Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd)Clarry, Reginald GeorgeGanzoni, Sir John
Anstruther-Gray, W. J.Clayton, Sir ChristopherGillett, Sir George Master man
Applin, Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K.Cobb, Sir CyrilGilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John
Assheton, RalphColfox, Major William PhilipGlossop, C. W. H.
Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick WolfeConant, R. J. E.Gluckstein, Louis Halle
Atholl, Duchess ofCook, Thomas A.Glyn, Major Sir Ralph G. C.
Bailey, Eric Alfred GeorgeCooke, DouglasGoff, Sir Park
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. StanleyCooper, A. DuffGoldie, Noel B.
Balniel, LordCopeland, IdaGoodman, Colonel Albert W.
Barclay-Harvey, C. M.Courtauld, Major John SewellGower, Sir Robert
Beauchamp, Sir Brograve CampbellCourthope, Colonel Sir George L.Graham, Sir F. Fergus (C'mb'rl'd, N.)
Beit, Sir Alfred L.Cranborne, ViscountGrattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas
Benn, Sir Arthur ShirleyCrookshank, Col. C. de Windt (Bootle)Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John
Bernays, RobertCrossley, A. C.Grigg, Sir Edward
Birchall, Major Sir John DearmanCulverwell, Cyril TomGrimston, R. V.
Blindell, JamesDalkeith, Earl ofGuinness, Thomas L. E. B.
Bossom, A. C.Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. C. C.Gunston, Captain D. W.
Boulton, W. W.Denman, Hon. R. D.Guy, J. C. Morrison
Bowater, Col. Sir T. VansittartDespencer-Robertson, Major J. A. F.Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.
Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.Drewe, CedricHales, Harold K.
Boyce, H. LeslieDuckworth, George A. V.Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)
Bracken, BrendanDugdale, Captain Thomas LionelHannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Brass, Captain Sir WilliamDuggan, Hubert JohnHarbord, Arthur
Broadbent, Colonel JohnDuncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.
Brocklebank, C. E. R.Dunglass, LordHenderson, Sir Vivian L. (Cheimsf'd)
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks., Newb'y)Elliot, Rt. Hon. WalterHerbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)
Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.Elliston, Captain George SampsonHerbert, Capt. S. (Abbey Division)
Bullock, Captain MalcolmElmley, ViscountHills, Major Ht. Hon. John Waller
Burgin, Dr. Edward LeslieEmmott, Charles E. G. C.Holdsworth, Herbert
Burnett, John GeorgeEmrys-Evans, P. V.Hope, Capt. Hon. A. O. J. (Aston)
Campbell, Sir Edward Taswell (Brmly)Erskine-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Blackpool)Hornby, Frank
Caporn, Arthur CecilEvans, Capt. Arthur (Cardiff, S.)Horobin, Ian M.
Castlereagh, ViscountEvans, R. T. (Carmarthen)Howard, Tom Forrest
Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)Fermoy, LordHudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord HughFielden, Edward BrocklehurstHudson, Robert Spear (Southport)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.)Fleming, Edward LascellesHume, Sir George Hopwood
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston)Flint, Abraham JohnHurst, Sir Gerald B.
Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas W. H.Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)Shepperson, Sir Ernest W.
Iveagh, Countess ofMolson, A. Hugh ElsdaleSmiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D.
Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.)Moore, Lt.-Col. Thomas C. R. (Ayr)Smith, Sir J. Walker-(Barrow-in-F.)
Jackson, J. C. (Heywood & Radcliffe)Morgan, Robert H.Smithers, Sir Waldron
James, Wing.-Com. A. W. H.Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)Somervell, Sir Donald
Jamieson, DouglasMorrison, G. A. (Scottish Univer'ties)Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)
Jones, Lewis (Swansea, West)Muirhead, Lieut.-Colonel A. J.Soper, Richard
Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose)Munro, PatrickSotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.
Kerr, Hamilton W.Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.Southby, Commander Archibald R. J.
Keyes, Admiral Sir RogerNorie-Miller, FrancisSpencer, Captain Richard A.
Kimball, LawrenceNorth, Edward T.Spens, William Patrick
Knox, Sir AlfredOrr Ewing I. L.Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde)
Lamb, Sir Joseph QuintonPeake, OsbertStanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'morland)
Lambert, Rt. Hon. GeorgePearson William G.Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)
Law, Sir AlfredPenny, Sir GeorgeStewart, William J. (Belfast, S.)
Leckle, J. A.Percy Lord EustaceStones, James
Leech, Dr. J. W.Perkins, Walter R. D.Stourton, Hon. John J.
Lees-Jones, JohnPetherick, M.Strauss, Edward A.
Leighton, Major B. E. P.Peto Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)Strickland, Captain W. F.
Lennox-Boyd, A. T.Pickthorn, K. W. M.Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-
Levy, ThomasPike, Cecil F.Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir Murray F.
Little, Graham-, Sir ErnestPownall Sir AsshetonSugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart
Llewellin, Major John J.Ralkes, Henry V. A. M.Sutcliffe, Harold
Llewellyn-Jones, FrederickRamsay, T. B. W. (Western Islet)Tate, Mavis Constance
Lloyd, GeoffreyRamsden, Sir EugeneTaylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)
Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hn. G. (Wd. Gr'n)Rankin, RobertThomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)
Lockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.)Reid, Capt A. Cunningham-Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)
Loftus, Pierce C.Reid, James (Stirling)Turton, Robert Hugh
Lovat-Fraser, James AlexanderReid, William Allan (Derby)Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey)
MacAndrew, Lieut.-Col. C. G (Partick)Rhys Hon Charles Arthur U.Wallace, Sir John (Dunfermline)
MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)Rickards, George William'Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)
McCorquodale, M. S.Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)
Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)Robinson, John RolandWard, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)
McEwen, Captain J. H. F.Ropner, Colonel L.Watt, Major George Steven H.
McKeag, WilliamRoss Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)Wells, Sydney Richard
Maclay, Hon. Joseph PatonRuggles-Brise, Colonel Sir EdwardWhiteside, Borras Noel H.
McLean, Major Sir AlanRunsell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)
McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)Russell, Hamer Field (Sheffield, B'tslde)Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Makins, Brigadier-General ErnestRussell, R. J. (Eddisbury)Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham)Wise, Alfred R.
Marsden, Commander ArthurSamuel, M. R. A. (W'ds'wth, Putney)Womersley, Sir Walter
Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel JohnSanderson, Sir Frank BarnardWorthington, Dr. John V.
Meller, Sir Richard James (Mitcham)Sandys, DuncanYoung, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'v'oaks)
Mellor, Sir J. S. P.Savery, ServingtonYoung, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.)
Mills, Sir Frederick (Leyton, E.)Selley, Harry R.
Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Mitchell, Harold P. (Br'tf'd & Chisw'k)Shaw, Captain William T. (Forfar)Sir Victor Warrender and Major
George Davies.
NOES
Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. ChristopherGreenwood, Rt. Hon. ArthurMallalieu, Edward Lancelot
Attlee, Clement RichardGrenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)Mander, Geoffrey le M.
Banfield, John WilliamGriffiths, George A. (Yorks, W. Riding)Maxton, James
Batey, JosephGrundy, Thomas W.Parkinson, John Allen
Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale)Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil)Pickering, Ernest H.
Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield)Harris, Sir PercyRathbone, Eleanor
Cleary, J. J.Hicks, Ernest GeorgeRea, Walter Russell
Cocks, Frederick SeymourJenkins, Sir WilliamSamuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)
Cove, William G.John, WilliamSmith, Tom (Normanton)
Cripps, Sir StaffordJones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, North)
Daggar, GeorgeJones, Morgan (Caerphilly)Thorne, William James
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)Lawson, John JamesTinker, John Joseph
Davies, Stephen OwenLeonard, WilliamWedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah
Dobbie, WilliamLindsay, Kenneth (Kilmarnock)White, Henry Graham
Edwards, CharlesLogan, David GilbertWilliams, David (Swansea, East)
Foot, Dingle (Dundee)Lunn, WilliamWilliams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly)
Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin)Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)
Gardner, Benjamin WalterMcEntee, Valentine L.
George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)Mainwaring, William HenryTELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Mr. Paling and Mr. Groves.

5.21 p.m.

Photo of Sir Percy Harris Sir Percy Harris , Bethnal Green South West

I beg to move, after the words last added, to add, "and of Clauses 30 to 34."

As a private Member I welcome the precedent which has now been set by the Minister. I was brought up in an old-fashioned school, but am prepared to go with the times. In the Committee I was most anxious to widen the character of the building construction to which assistance from rates and taxes could be given. In my view the Bill leans far too heavily in favour of flats as against cottages and small houses, and I am fortified in that view by the opinion of most persons who have studied the housing problem on a large scale. I think the Minister has taken a bold and perhaps, in all the circumstances, a wise course; I think he wants the problem to be viewed anew; and, in the light, of his acceptance of an Amendment from the other side of the House, perhaps he will show the same sympathy for the Amendment which I now move.

5.22 p.m.

Photo of Mr Valentine McEntee Mr Valentine McEntee , Walthamstow West

I desire to support the Amendment, if for no other reason, in a spirit of fairness to all Members of the House. I think it will be agreed by every Member of the House that, even if not intentionally, the Minister, by his action in accepting the Amendment of the Noble Lord the Member for Hastings (Lord E. Percy), has given the impression to many Members of the House, including myself, and no doubt will give an impression to many people outside the House, that he and those who are supporting him desire to give a preference to certain Members of the House that would not be given to other Members. It ought to be apparent to the Minister and to everyone else that, if we are to discuss a part of the Clauses dealing with the financial relations between the Government, the local authorities and the people who are to benefit under those Clauses, the Government ought to give us an opportunity for are consideration of the whole of the problems involved, and the commitments of the Government and others which the Clauses involve. I was not a Member of the Committee upstairs, but I was extremely interested in the discussions that took place there, and I was very disappointed that some of the ideas which I and other Members of the House hold were not, in my view at any rate, given full expression to in the Committee.

In my view these five Clauses were inadequately discussed, and the decisions arrived at were not decisions of which I, at any rate, approve. In that regard I am in exactly the same position as the Noble Lord the Member for Hastings, who has been given the opportunity today of bringing the matter from the Committee upstairs down to a wider and, he hopes, a more successful discussion here on the Floor of the House. I submit to the House, taking the case of the Noble Lord and myself—there may be many others—that, the Noble Lord having been given by a vote of the House the opportunity for which he has pleaded, there ought to be no reason why I or any other Member of the House suffering from a similar sense of grievance should not get from the Government and the House the same opportunity for consideration of matters which we think are operating unfairly against us. For that reason I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that, having conceded to some Members of the House an opportunity for fuller and wider discussion of the Clauses in which they are interested, he should at least be fair to other Members of the House and give them the same opportunity.

5.27 p.m.

Photo of Mr Herbert Williams Mr Herbert Williams , Croydon South

So far as I understand the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Sir Percy Harris), he has moved his Amendment in order to raise the question of cottages. I think I am interpreting him correctly. If that be the ease, even if his Amendment be carried, I do not think his object will be achieved, because I gather that he wants to propose something outside the Financial Resolution, which bind sour proceedings in any event. In those circumstances I hope he will reconsider his attitude. It is no use getting his proposal carried if, when he tables his Amendments, they have to be ruled out of order in any event.

5.28 p.m.

Photo of Mr Charles Williams Mr Charles Williams , Torquay

If this Amendment is to be accepted—and presumably it would be possible also to accept a series of other similar Amendments—and if it is going to be the habit of the House to recommit large sections of Bills, I personally cannot see what is the use of a 'Committee stage. I have not taken part in either of the Divisions, but I think that some private Members might very well register great regret at some of the proceedings this afternoon.

5.29 p.m.

Photo of Mr Edward Young Mr Edward Young , Sevenoaks

The Amendment of the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Sir P. Harris) is, of course, quite in order, and, if I thought that it would at all assist in the useful discussion of the Bill by the House on Report, I would at once accede to it. There are, however, three reasons which I think are very cogent, and which will be quite plain to the House, why the Amendment would not really assist our proceedings. In the first place, it is very much too wide. The recommittal of no fewer than five Clauses is so wide that for the moment I doubted whether it could have been intended seriously by the hon. Member. In the second place, as has been rightly pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for South Croydon (Mr. H. Williams), the Clauses which the hon. Member desires to recommit concern financial issues in regard to which we are bound by the Financial Resolution.

Speaking as a matter of common sense, it is not possible to frame Amendments which would naturally be in order. The Amendments which we previously debated concern interesting points not discussed in Committee. The only questions which can possibly arise on the present Amendment are those which have been thrashed out in Committee.

Photo of Sir Percy Harris Sir Percy Harris , Bethnal Green South West

Amendments were down on the Paper, but they were ruled out of order because of the Financial Resolution. We had no discussion on the very large problem on which I had very strong expert opinion, and I want it to be in order so that it can be discussed.

Photo of Mr Edward Young Mr Edward Young , Sevenoaks

If an Amendment is out of order because of the Financial Resolution, it remains out of order and cannot be brought in. The intention of the Government is to assist the House to a practical discussion of a most useful kind on the Report stage. I do not feel that this Amendment would assist the House, and therefore I recommend it not to accept it.

5.32 p.m.

Photo of Mr Herbert Samuel Mr Herbert Samuel , Darwen

The observations of the right hon. Gentleman are really not conclusive, for if the Amendments that have already been accepted will be in order for discussion when we come to the Report stage, my hon. Friend would certainly be able to draft Amendments on these particular Clauses which would be equally in order. It is true that he could not draft any Amendment which would increase the Exchequer contribution, and that was why it was ruled out of order on the Committee stage. If a particular Amendment is out of order on the original committal Motion it would equally be out of order on the re-committal of the Bill. My hon. Friend no doubt could draft Amendments which would impose a similar charge to that which is now proposed by the hon. Members whose Amendments have been accepted, namely, a charge upon the rates, and that would be in order.

We did not know that this most unusual and indeed unprecedented procedure was going to be adopted to-day, and my hon. Friend the Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Sir P. Harris) could not in advance draft such Amendment. That is why he has now moved the re-committal of the Clauses including not only Exchequer but also rate contributions to house and flat building. His object is to enable the House to consider whether almost the entire financial assistance to be given should be as in the Bill. That is why, if it has been possible and in order and useful to accept the Amendments which have been already accepted by the House, equally there is a case for the third Amendment moved by my hon. Friend. It is a very significant fact indicating the tangle into which we have been brought by the course taken by the Minister to-day that two very well-known and influential Members of the party supporting the Government, the hon. and gallant Baronet the Member for Northampton (Sir. M. Manningham-Buller), and the hon. Member for Torquay (Mr. C. Williams), have both found it necessary to raise a voice of protest and to suggest that a mistake has been made, and that the precedent set to-day is not warranted, and is somewhat ominous for the future.

5.36 p.m.

Photo of Mr Arthur Greenwood Mr Arthur Greenwood , Wakefield

I am astonished at the change of front of the Minister. Logically, having accepted the first two Amendments, what reason is there for rejecting another Amendment? The only reason I can see is that he is rather more friendly towards the first two Amendments than he is towards the third Amendment in connection with this recommittal of Clauses. If these Clauses are recommitted, we can certainly re-discuss on these Clauses the financial principles on which the Bill is based. If, owing to the accident of the right hon. Gentleman having to recommit this Bill, Amendments which normally would not have been called can be brought in for possible discussion on the recommittal of the Bill, clearly hon. Members on both sides of the House are entitled to raise points upon which they feel very strongly. I am not sure, in view of the mess in which he has landed himself this afternoon, that it would not have been wiser to have moved the recommittal of the whole Bill. It might have saved a good deal of trouble. It is a case of sheer favouritism. Two Amendments to the recommittal Motion are accepted by the right hon. Gentleman, but the first Amendment that comes from the hon. Baronet the Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Sir P. Harris) is to be

rejected for reasons which are absolutely irrelevant in this discussion in regard to the recommittal Motion. I hope that hon. Members who so cheerfully supported in the Lobby the other two Amendments will on the same ground—we are not urging any other grounds—support this Amendment also in the Division Lobby.

Question put, "That those words be there added."

The House divided: Ayes, 62;Noes, 251.

Division No. 197AYES.[5.37 p.m.
Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. ChristopherGrenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)Mainwaring, William Henry
Attlee, Clement RichardGriffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro', W.)Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot
Banfield, John WilliamGriffiths, George A. (Yorks, W. Riding)Mander, Geoffrey le M.
Batey, JosephGroves, Thomas E.Paling, Wilfred
Bernays, RobertGrundy, Thomas W.Parkinson, John Allen
Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale)Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil)Pickering, Ernest H.
Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield)Hamilton, Sir R. W. (Orkney & Zetl'nd)Rathbone, Eleanor
Cleary, J. J.Hicks, Ernest GeorgeSalter, Dr. Alfred
Cocks, Frederick SeymourHoldsworth, HerbertSamuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)
Cove, William G.Janner, BarnettSmith, Tom (Normanton)
Cripps, Sir StaffordJenkins, Sir WilliamStrauss, G. R. (Lambeth, North)
Daggar, GeorgeJohn, WilliamThorne, William James
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)Tinker, John Joseph
Davies, Stephen OwenJones, Morgen (Caerphilly)White, Henry Graham
Dobbie, WilliamLawson, John JamesWilliams, David (Swansea, East)
Edwards, CharlesLeonard, WilliamWilliams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly)
Foot, Dingle (Dundee)Llewellyn-Jones, FrederickWilliams, Thomas (York. Don Valley)
Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin)Logan, David GilbertYoung, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.)
Gardner, Benjamin WalterLunn, William
George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
George, Megan A. Lloyd (Anglesea)McEntee, Valentine L.Mr. Walter Rea and Sir Percy Harris.
Greenwood, Rt. Hon. ArthurMcKeag, William
NOES.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-ColonelChamberlain, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.)Fermoy, Lord
Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.)Chapman, Col. R. (Houghton-le-Spring)Fleming, Edward Lascelles
Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G.Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.)Flint, Abraham John
Allen, Lt. -Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd)Chorlton, Alan Ernest LeofricFox, Sir Gifford
Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent)Clayton, Sir ChristopherFremantle, Sir Francis
Assheton, RalphCobb, Sir CyrilGalbraith, James Francis Wallace
Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick WolleColfox, Major William PhilipGanzoni, Sir John
Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)Collins, Rt. Hon. Sir GodfreyGillett, Sir George Masterman
Atholl, Duchess ofColville, Lieut.-Colonel J.Gilmour, Lt. -Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John
Balley, Eric Alfred GeorgeConant, R. J. E.Gluckstein, Louls Halle
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. StanleyCook, Thomas A.Glyn, Major Sir Ralph G. C.
Balniel, LordCooke, DouglasGoff, Sir Park
Barclay-Harvey, C. M.Cooper, A. DuffGoldie, Noel B.
Beauchamp, Sir Brograve CampbellCopeland, IdaGoodman, Colonel Albert W.
Beit, Sir Alfred L.Courtauld, Major John SewellGower, Sir Robert
Benn, Sir Arthur ShirleyCourthope, Colonel Sir George L.Graham, Sir F. Fergus (C'mb'rl'd, N.)
Birchall, Major Sir John DearmanCraven-Ellis, WilliamGrattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas
Blindell, JamesCroft, Brigadier-General Sir H.Grenfell, E. C. (City of London)
Bossom, A. C.Crookshank, Col. C. de Windt (Bootle)Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John
Boulton, W. W.Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel BernardGrigg, Sir Edward
Bowater, Col. Sir T. VansittartCulverwell, Cyrll TomGrimston, R. V.
Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.Dalkeith, Earl ofGuinness, Thomas L. E. B.
Bralthwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)Davison, Sir William HenryGuy, J. C. Morrison
Brass, Captain Sir WilliamDenman, Hon. R. D.Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.
Broadbent, Colonel JohnDespencer-Robertson, Major J. A. F.Hales, Harold K.
Brocklebank, C. E. R.Drewe, CedricHamilton, Sir George (Ilford)
Brown, Ernest (Leith)Duckworth, George A. V.Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks., Newb'y)Dugdale, Captain Thomas LionelHarbord, Arthur
Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.Duggan, Hubert JohnHartington, Marquess of
Burgin, Dr. Edward LeslieDuncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.
Burnett, John GeorgeEllis, Sir R. GeoffreyHenderson, Sir Vivian L. (Chelmsf'd)
Campbell, Sir Edward Taswell (Brmly)Elliston, Captain George SampsonHerbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)
Caporn, Arthur CecilEmrys-Evans, P. V.Herbert, Capt. S. (Abbey Division)
Castlereagh, ViscountEntwistle, Cyril FullardHills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller
Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City)Erskine-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Blk'pool)Hope, Capt. Hon. A. O. J. (Aston)
Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)Evans, Capt. Arthur (Cardiff, S.)Hornby, Frank
Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.Mellor, Sir J. S. P.Shepperson, Sir Ernest W.
Horobin, Ian M.Mills, Sir Frederick (Leyton, E.)Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D.
Horsbrugh, FlorenceMills, Major J. D. (New Forest)Smith, Sir J. Walker-(Barrow-in-F.)
Howard, Tom ForrestMitchell, Harold P. (Br'tf'd & Chisw'k)Smithers, Sir Waldron
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)Somervell, Sir Donald
Hudson, Robert Spear (Southport)Molton, A. Hugh ElsdaleSomerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)
Hume, Sir George HopwoodMoore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.Soper, Richard
Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries)Morgan, Robert H.Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.
Hurst, Sir Gerald B.Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univer'ties)Southby, Commander Archibald R. J.
Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas W. H.Muirhead, Lieut.-Colonel A. J.Spencer, Captain Richard A.
Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.)Munro, PatrickSpender-Clay, Rt. Hon. Herbert H.
Jackson, J. C. (Heywood & Radcliffe)Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.Spens, William Patrick
James, Wing.-Com. A. W. H.Norle-Miller, FrancisStanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde)
Jamieson, DouglasNorth, Edward T.Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'morland)
Jones, Lewis (Swansea, West)Orr Ewing, I. L.Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)
Ker, J. CampbellPeaks, OsbertStewart, William J. (Belfast, S.)
Kerr, Lieut. -Col. Charles (Montrose)Pearson, William G.Stones, James
Keyes, Admiral Sir RogerPenny, Sir GeorgeStourton, Hon. John J.
Kimball, LawrencePercy, Lord EustaceStrauss, Edward A.
Knox, Sir AlfredPerkins, Walter R. D.Strickland, Captain W. F.
Lamb, Sir Joseph QuintonPetherick, M.Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-
Lambert, Rt. Hon. GeorgePeto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir Murray F.
Law, Sir AlfredPickthorn, K. W. M.Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart
Leckle, J. A.Pike, Cecil F.Sutcliffe, Harold
Leech, Dr. J. W.Pownall, Sir AsshetonTate, Mavis Constance
Lees-Jones, JohnRamsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)
Leighton, Major B. E. P.Ramsdon, Sir EugeneThomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)
Lennox-Boyd, A. T.Rankin, RobertThomas, James P. L. (Hereford)
Levy, ThomasReid, Capt. A. Cunningham-Turton, Robert Hugh
Lindsay, Kenneth (Kilmarnock)Reid, William Allan (Derby)Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey)
Little, Graham-, Sir ErnestRhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U.Wallace, Sir John (Dunfermline)
Llewellin, Major John J.Rickards, George WilliamWard, Lt. -Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)
Lloyd, GeoffreyRoberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)
Lockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.)Robinson, John RolandWard, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)
Loftus, Pierce C.Ropner, Colonel L.Watt, Major George Steven H.
Lovat-Fraser, James AlexanderRoss Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)Wells, Sydney Richard
MacAndrew, Lieut. -Col. C. G. (Partick)Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir EdwardWilliams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)
MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)
McCorquodale, M. S.Russell, Hamer Field (Sheffield, B'tside)Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury)Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
McEwen, Captain J. H. F.Rutherford, Sir John Huge (Liverp'l)Wite, Alfred R.
Maclay, Hon. Joseph PatonSamuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham)Withers, Sir John James
McLean, Major Sir AlanSamuel, M. R. A. (W'ds'wth, Putney)Womersley, Sir Walter
Makins, Brigadier-General ErnestSanderson, Sir Frank BarnardWorthington, Dr. John V.
Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.Sandys, DuncanYoung, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'v'nonks)
Marsden, Commander ArthurSavery, Servington
Mason, Col. Glyn K. (Croydon, N.)Selley, Harry R.TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel JohnShakespeare, Geoffrey H.Sir Victor Warrender and Major
Meller, Sir Richard James (Mitcham)Shaw, Captain William T. (Forfar)George Davies.

5.45 p.m.

Photo of Mr Alan Chorlton Mr Alan Chorlton , Manchester Platting

I beg to move, after the words last added, to add and of the new Clause (Amendment as to allowances to non-provided schools in respect of demolitions, &c.) standing in the name of Mr. Chorlton. This is an exceedingly important Amendment. It refers specifically to those schools connected with churches which are affected by the declaration of clearance areas. I possess the doubtful distinction of being the Member of Parliament for a Division which has the largest slum areas that have been declared clearance areas in this country. Those areas affect the church schools surrounding them. The churches affected are those of St. Malachi, St. Patrick, St. Oswald, St. James and the Albert Memorial Church. The schools are supported and carried on by the churches concerned, and the effect of the slum clearance is to reduce the school attendance of that district, by 50 per cent. and also the church attendance. It becomes almost impossible to carryon the schools because the support will be insufficient. Therefore it seems only reasonable that some means should be provided—

Photo of Lieut-General Edward Fitzroy Lieut-General Edward Fitzroy , Daventry

The hon. Member is not entitled to enter into the merits of the Clause, but only to ask that it be added to the Motion for Recommittal.

Photo of Mr Alan Chorlton Mr Alan Chorlton , Manchester Platting

I would ask the Government to accept the Amendment.

5.47 p.m.

Photo of Mr Edward Fleming Mr Edward Fleming , Manchester, Withington

I beg to second the Amendment.

I listened very carefully to all that has been said, particularly as regards the Rules of Procedure, and it seems to me that whatever was said on the first three Amendments could equally well be said on this Amendment. I have, however, been wondering whether if this Amendment were accepted by the Government it would not still be in order for the Chairman when this particular Amendment along with the others which have been accepted, comes forward, to disallow such Amendments and not to call them. As I understand it, all that we are doing now is to say whether this Amendment shall be called by the Chairman when these matters are recommitted. [HON. MEMBERS: "No!"] I am given to understand by those who were on the Committee upstairs that the matter which is the subject of the present Amendment has not been discussed and I welcome the opportunity of expressing the opinion that we should be allowed to discuss this particular matter.

5.48 p.m.

Photo of Mr David Logan Mr David Logan , Liverpool Scotland

I am very pleased to have the opportunity of supporting the Amendment. I do not intend to enter into the merits of it, but I want to put forward my reasons for suggesting that it should be discussed, from the point of view of one who has taken and is taking great interest in the housing of the people, and as a member of a housing committee. Not having had an opportunity upstairs of discussing this matter I certainly thought that so important a question would be discussed later. We have seen a unique event in the House this afternoon, which seems to me unprecedented in Parliamentary procedure, and having witnessed that incident I now avail myself of the opportunity of supporting the proposed Amendment. I do not intend to detain the House any longer, because I shall reserve my remarks until we debate this particular Amendment later.

5.49 p.m.

Photo of Mr Edward Young Mr Edward Young , Sevenoaks

My hon. Friend who moved the Amendment will not be wholly surprised to hear that I do not propose to accept the Amendment on behalf of the Government. I propose to deal with it in precisely the same way as I have attempted to deal with previous Amendments of the same sort, and that is to consider it not from the point of view of the merits of the Amendment—which Mr. Speaker has reminded us are not in question to-day—but whether it is necessary or useful for the House to have an opportunity of discussing such a matter. On that head let me point out that the matter to which my hon. Friend referred is outside the scope of the present Bill and relates rather to the financing of education services. In the second place, the Amendment is based on a misconception as to what the liability of the grant-aiding authority is towards non-provided schools, which relates to the number of pupils in the schools. In the third place, we are again up against the same difficulty as in another case of bringing the matter inside the Rules of Order and inside our Financial Resolution. In these circumstances, and as I do not think that this is an essential matter to be dealt with in the Bill, I am not prepared to advise the House to extend the procedure and to include it at this stage.

5.51 p.m.

Photo of Mr Arthur Greenwood Mr Arthur Greenwood , Wakefield

The right hon. Gentleman changes his ground very quickly. Having been guilty of a very illogical action on the last occasion, he is now trying to be consistent, but for different reasons. I should have thought that this question, which was not debated upstairs—in this respect it is unlike some of the questions which are to be re-debated—ought to be dealt with, but the Minister entered into the merits of it by saying that it is concerned with the financing of educational services and not with this Bill. I would point out that in Clause 82 of the Bill people whose incomes are materially decreased because of the Bill may receive compensation. Surely, therefore, it is permissible for the hon. Member for Platting (Mr. Chorlton) to bring forward this Amendment in order to put the non-provided schools—for which I have no special liking—into the same category.

The House is getting into a state of confusion. Two Amendments have been accepted, one has been rejected and another is to be rejected, and the people who supported the inclusion of the previous Clauses are now to be ranged against this one. We are in a state of muddle, to which I shall have to refer when we get rid of this Amendment. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will either be able to say that he is going to accept only the two Amendments that have been accepted or that he is prepared to accept all the Amendments, so that we should get a fair field of discussion on the recommittal of the Bill. I asked hon. Members on the occasion of the last Division to be logical and follow the same lines that they had taken on the previous two Amendments, but they did not do so. I should have thought that on the question now before us, now that we are reverting to type and that the Amendment comes from the Government side, the Government would revert to its practice of accepting Amendments from the Government supporters and not accepting Opposition Amendments. Let them accept this Amendment and avoid a Division. If, however, the right hon. Gentlement insists that he is not going to accept it, I hope the hon. Member who moved it will be bold enough to go with us into the Division Lobby against the Government.

5.55 p.m.

Photo of Mr Barnett Janner Mr Barnett Janner , Stepney Whitechapel and St George's

I rise to support the Amendment, for the reason that the Minister is not entitled to go back on the argument that he has used and that any private Member, whatever the merits or demerits of his case maybe, should have an opportunity of having his Amendments discussed. So far as I can understand it, the Amendment now before us is very important. It affects a large number of people who if the Bill comes into effect as it stands will be seriously concerned about the money which they will have to spend or the money which they have already spent, which will be lost by them because of the action to be taken by the local authorities in some clearance areas. I do not want to discuss the merits or the demerits of the question. The Minister has clearly indicated that it is not a question of whether an Amendment will be accepted by him, even if we added it to the recommittal Clauses. He has specifically indicated that certain Amendments which he is going to allow to be discussed will be opposed by him. In this particular instance, I hope he will agree, whether he opposes or supports the Amendment in the Committee stage, that the hon. Member who moved it is genuine in his intentions to have the matter properly discussed, and I hope he will allow the Motion to be carried without a Division.

5.58 p.m.

Photo of Mr Aneurin Bevan Mr Aneurin Bevan , Ebbw Vale

I expected to bear something from the two Noble Lords

who are the champions of the rights and privileges of Members of this House, and who were eloquent a little time ago on this subject. On that occasion they were very eloquent in asking that the House should have an opportunity of discussing an Amendment which has already been discussed for many hours upstairs. We have now before us a question which was not discussed at all and many hon. Members are anxious that the merits of it should receive consideration by the House. I have always understood that the Report stage was not merely an opportunity for putting the Bill in order but for discussing Amendments which the Committee has had no chance of discussing. All that we ask is for an opportunity to discuss the Clause, and I had hoped that the Noble Lord the Member for Hastings (Lord E. Percy) would have had something to say on the subject. I have read a good many of the essays and books the Noble Lord has written, and I thought he had made himself the champion of privately-owned schools.

Photo of Lieut-General Edward Fitzroy Lieut-General Edward Fitzroy , Daventry

That question does not arise on this Amendment.

Photo of Mr Aneurin Bevan Mr Aneurin Bevan , Ebbw Vale

I am not discussing the merits of the new Clause, but the fact that the Noble Lord takes a certain view on schools of this character, and we should have a chance of discussing the merits of the proposal in respect of them.

Photo of Mr Cecil Pike Mr Cecil Pike , Sheffield, Attercliffe

Surely the hon. Member realises that even if the Minister had accepted this new Clause, he could not give him an assurance that the Chairman of the Committee would call it?

Photo of Mr Aneurin Bevan Mr Aneurin Bevan , Ebbw Vale

All I am asking is that hon. Members who have been prevented from putting their case before the House should have an opportunity of doing so. It will be a complete frustration of Report stage if we are prevented from having a discussion on this important matter.

Question put, "That those words be there added."

The House divided: Ayes, 75; Noes, 239.

Division No. 198.]AYES.[6.2 p.m.
Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.)Banfield, John WilliamBroadbent, Colonel John
Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. ChristopherBatey, JosephBrown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield)
Attlee, Clement RichardBevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale)Chapman, Col. R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Cleary, J. J.Harris, Sir PercyParkinson, John Allen
Cocks, Frederick SeymourHellgers, Captain F. F. A.Pearson, William G.
Cove, William G.Hicks, Ernest GeorgePickering, Ernest H.
Daggar, GeorgeHoldsworth, HerbertPike, Cecil F.
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)Janner, BarnettRea, Walter Russell
Davies, Stephen OwenJenkins, Sir WilliamSalter, Dr. Alfred
Dobbie, WilliamJohn, WilliamSamuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)
Edwards, CharlesJones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)Sinclair, Maj. Rt. Hn. Sir A. (C'thness)
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univ.)Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)Smith, Tom (Normanton)
Foot, Dingle (Dundee)Lawson, John JamesSpencer, Captain Richard A.
Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin)Leech, Dr. J. W.Stones, James
Gardner, Benjamin WalterLees-Jones, JohnStrauss, G. R. (Lambeth, North)
George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)Leonard, WilliamThorne, William James
George, Megan A. Lloyd (Anglesea)Llewellyn-Jones, FrederickThorp, Linton Theodore
Greenwood, Rt. Hon. ArthurLogan, David GilbertTinker, John Joseph
Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)Lunn, WilliamWhite, Henry Graham
Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro', W.)Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Griffiths, George A. (Yorks, W. Riding)McEntee, Valentine L.Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly)
Groves, Thomas E.Mainwaring, William HenryWilliams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)
Grundy, Thomas W.Mallalieu, Edward LancelotYoung, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.)
Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil)Mander, Geoffrey le M.
Hamilton, Sir R. W. (Orkney & Ztl'nd)Maxton, JamesTELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Harbord, ArthurPaling, WilfredMr. Chorlton and Mr. Fleming.
NOES.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-ColonelElliston, Captain George SampsonLeckle, J. A.
Agnew Lieut.-Com. P. G.Emrys-Evans, P. V.Leighton, Major B. E. P.
Albery, Irving JamesEntwistle, Cyril FullardLennox-Boyd, A. T.
Allen Sir J. Sandeman (L'pool, W.)Enkine-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Blackpool)Levy, Thomas
Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent)Evans, Capt. Arthur (Cardiff, S.)Lindsay, Kenneth (Kilmarnock)
Assheton RalphFlint, Abraham JohnLittle, Graham, Sir Ernest
Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick WolfeFox, Sir GiffordLlewellin, Major John J.
Astor Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)Fremantle, Sir FrancisLloyd, Geoffrey
Balley Eric Alfred GeorgeGanzoni, Sir JohnLockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.)
Balniel LordGillett, Sir George MastermanLoder, Captain J. de Vere
Barclay-Harvey C. M.Gilmour, Lt. -Col. Rt. Hon. Sir JohnLoftus, Pierce C.
Beauchamp, Sir Brograve CampbellGluckstein, Louis HalleLovat-Fraser, James Alexander
Beit Sir Alfred L.Glyn, Major Sir Ralph G. C.MacAndrew, Lieut. -Col. C. G. (Partick)
Benn, Sir Arthur ShirleyGoff, Sir ParkMacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)
Bernays RobertGoldie, Noel B.McCorquodale, M. S.
Birchall Major Sir John DearmanGoodman, Colonel Albert W.Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)
Blindell JamesGower, Sir RobertMcEwen, Captain J. H. F.
Boothby, Robert John GrahamGrattan-Doyle, Sir NicholasMaclay, Hon. Joseph Paton
Bossom, A. C.Grenfell, E. C. (City of London)McLean, Major Sir Alan
Bowater Col Sir T. VansittartGretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. JohnMcLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)
Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)Grigg, Sir EdwardMacquisten Frederick Alexander
Brocklebank, C. E. R.Grimston, R. V.Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest
Brown Ernest (Leith)Guinness, Thomas L. E. B.Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks., Newb'y)Gunston, Captain D. W.Marsden, Commander Arthur
Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.Guy, J. C. MorrisonMason, Col. Glyn, K. (Croydon, N.)
Burnett John GeorgeHacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John
Butler Richard AustenHales, Harold K.Meller, Sir Richard James (Mitcham)
Campbell, Sir Edward Taswell (Brmly)Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)Mellor, Sir J. S. P.
Caporn, Arthur CecilHanbury, CecilMills, Sir Frederick (Leyton, E.)
Castlereagh, viscountHartington, Marquess ofMills Major J. D. (New Forest)
Cayzer, Sir Charles, (Chester, City)Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)Mitchell, Harold P. (Br'tf'd & Chisw'k)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A. (Birm., W)Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston)Herbert, Capt. S. (Abbey Division)Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale
Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.)Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John WallerMoore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston SpencerHope, Capt. Hon. A. O. J. (Aston)Moreing, Adrian C.
Clayton, Sir ChristopherHornby, FrankMorgan, Robert H.
Cobb, Sir CyrilHorobin, Ian M.Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)
Colfox, Major William PhilipHorsbrugh, FlorenceMuirhead, Lieut.-Colonel A. J.
Collins Rt. Hon Sir GodfreyHoward, Tom ForrestMunro, Patrick
Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J.Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)Nation Brigadier-General J. J. H.
Conant, R. J. E.Hudson, Robert Spear (Southport)Norie-Miller, Francis
Cook Thomas A.Hume, Sir George HopwoodNorth, Edward T.
Cooke DouglasHunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries)Orr Ewing, I. L.
Copeland IdaHurst, Sir Gerald B.Peake, Osbert
Crookshank, Col. C. de Windt (Bootle)Iveagh, Countess ofPenny, Sir George
Crossley, A. C.Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.)Percy, Lord Eustace
Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel BernardJackson, J. C. (Heywood & Radcliffe)Perkins, Walter R. D.
Culverwell Cyril TomJamieson, DouglasPetherick, M.
Dalkeith Earl ofJones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke Newgton)Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Davies Edward C. (Montgomery)Jones, Lewis (Swansea, West)Peto, Geoffrey K. (W'verh'pt'n, Bilst'n)
Davison Sir William HenryKer, J. CampbellPickthorn, K. W. M.
Denman Hon. R. D.Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose)Pownall, Sir Assheton
Despencer Robertson, Major J. A. F.Kerr, Hamilton W.Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)
Drewe, CedricKeyes, Admiral Sir RogerRamsden, Sir Eugene
Duckworth, George A. V.Kimball, LawrenceRankin, Robert
Dugdale, Captain Thomas, LionelKnox, Sir AlfredRathbone, Eleanor
Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)Lamb, Sir Joseph QuintonReid, James S. C. (Stirling)
Dunglase LordLambert, Rt. Hon. GeorgeReid, William Allan (Derby)
Ellis, Sir GeoffreyLaw, Sir AlfredRhys, Hon. Charles, Arthur U.
Rickards, George WilliamSmith, Sir J. Walker (Barrow-in-F.)Thompson, Sir Luke
Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)Smithers, Sir WaldronTurton, Robert Hugh
Robinson, John RolandSomervell, Sir DonaldWallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey)
Ropner, Colonel L.Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)Wallace, Sir John (Dunfermline)
Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)Soper, RichardWard, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)
Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir EdwardSotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)Southby, Commander Archibald R. J.Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)
Russell, Hamer Field (Shef'ld, B'tside)Spender-Clay, Rt. Hon. Herbert H.Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.
Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury)Spens, William PatrickWatt, Major George Steven H.
Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l)Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde)Wells, Sydney Richard
Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham)Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'morland)Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)
Samuel, M. R A. (W'd'swth, Putney).Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)
Sanderson, Sir Frank BarnardStourton, Hon. John J.Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Sandys, DuncanStrauss, Edward A.Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Savery, ServingtonStrickland, Captain W. F.Wise, Alfred R.
Selley, Harry R.Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-Womersley, Sir Walter
Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir Murray F.Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir H. Kingsley
Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)Sugden, Sir Wilfrid HartWorthington, Dr. John V.
Shaw, Captain William T. (Forfar)Tate, Mavis ConstanceYoung, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'v'noaks)
Shepperson, Sir Ernest W.Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)
Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D.Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)Captain Sir George Bowyer and
Major George Davies.

6.11 p.m.

Photo of Mr Charles Brown Mr Charles Brown , Mansfield

I beg to move, after the words last added, to add "and of Clauses 37 and 38."

I hope to be able to advance substantial reasons why these two Clauses should be recommitted. The Minister of Health is already convinced that there cannot be too much discussion on certain aspects of the matter. He has already welcomed suggestions that matters which were discussed upstairs at great length should be discussed again on the Floor of the House, and I suggest that the question of the housing of rural workers, which is dealt with in Clauses 37 and 38, is a matter of great importance, and was not adequately discussed in the Committee. I am looking for support to the Noble Lord the right hon. Member for Hasting (Lord E. Percy)and the Noble Lord the right hon. Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton), who have shown special interest in matters which concern property owners, and in questions affecting rural housing. It is also a matter which it is said usually interests Conservative Members who sit for rural constituencies, and, therefore, I hope to have their support also. No one considers that the problem of rural housing has been adequately dealt with, and the House, I am sure, would not be wasting its time if later on we devoted some considerable attention to the question.

6.13 p.m.

Photo of Mr Aneurin Bevan Mr Aneurin Bevan , Ebbw Vale

I beg to second the Amendment.

We are now left in the position where we have to move a number of these Motions one after another in the hope that we may spot a winner. We are left with no guidance as to whether the Motions are going to be accepted or rejected, because matters which were discussed ad nauseam upstairs have been accepted, and matters which were not discussed at all have been rejected. All we can do is to bring them forward one after another in the hope of catching the Minister off his guard. There is only one principle which can be advanced on a proposal as to whether a matter shall be discussed, and that is the importance of the issues which the House is asked to debate. All precedents have gone in consequence of the Minister's weakness this afternoon. If hon. Members walk into the Lobby against us, they will not be able to say that they did so because of the long established order of the House that what has been discussed in Committee shall not be considered on Report.

That is a frank violation of what the Government have already done. For hon. Members to go into the Lobby against us would be an expression of opinion that the issue we are seeking to discuss is not important enough to be discussed on the Report stage. If hon. Members who support the Government wish to have it said that the housing of rural workers is not important enough to be discussed again, they will vote against us, and we shall take good care that their constituents learn the value that they place on there housing of rural workers. If the Minister of Health has any regard for the opportunity of private Members to represent the wishes and interests of their constituents, he will give us the chance of discussion for which we are asking. I have not many rural workers in my constituency, and so I am not pleading for my own constituency, but there are many hon. Members who were not on the Standing Committee who should desire to put their case before the House, and the right hon. Gentleman ought to give them that chance.

Photo of Sir Basil Peto Sir Basil Peto , Barnstaple

In reply to the appeal of the hon. Member, I would point out that there are no Amendments on the Paper to Clauses 37 and 38. Therefore, I cannot see that there is any argument why these Clauses should be re-discussed.

6.17 p.m.

Photo of Mr Edward Young Mr Edward Young , Sevenoaks

I have listened with the closest attention and greatest interest to the observations of hon. Members opposite, in an attempt to understand what appears to them to be my function on these Amendments. My function is to assist the House to understand whether recommittal is necessary for any purpose, and whether that purpose will be assisted by our deliberations. On this occasion I have failed to discover any reason in the observations of either hon. Member why the Clauses should be recommitted or that any purpose would be served by their recommittal. That these two Clauses are most interesting and most important and well deserve discussion, we all agree. But all the possibilities of re-discussion are available without recommittal. Recommittal is necessary only for limited purposes. Hon. Members opposite have not specified any purpose for which it is necessary in this case. There are the ordinary opportunities for discussion of the Clauses on Report and Third Reading. In those circumstances, and in view of what has been stated by the hon. Baronet the Member for Barnstaple (Sir B. Peto), I do not, think it is essential that these Clauses should be recommitted, and I do not advise the House to accept the Amendment.

6.19 p.m.

Photo of Dr Christopher Addison Dr Christopher Addison , Swindon

It is necessary to recall that the Minister has agreed that the House should have an opportunity of re-discussing a matter which was brought up by the hon. Member for Central Leeds

(Mr. Denman), though that matter was discussed for three or four days by the Standing Committee.

Photo of Sir Richard Denman Sir Richard Denman , Leeds Central

My whole point was that it was not discussed upstairs. I have before me reports of the discussions on Clause 59 by the Standing Committee, and there was not one word of discussion, or certainly no Division, in respect of the special provisions to which I have referred.

Photo of Dr Christopher Addison Dr Christopher Addison , Swindon

I am not concerned with the small point raised by the hon. Member. I am concerned with his desire to recommit the Bill for the discussion of the vital Clause affecting compensation where property is taken over by a local authority. The Minister knows that the discussion of the Clause was very prolonged upstairs. It gives rise to acute differences of opinion. Notwithstanding that prolonged discussion, the Minister agrees that it is appropriate that it should be re-discussed now. That is an entire violation of all the functions of the Orders of the House. But that is the right hon. Gentleman's decision. The same argument applies, but with less force, I agree, to the right hon. Gentleman's decision to accept the new Clause in the name of the Noble Lord the Member for Hastings (Lord E. Percy). Now comes a matter which was not discussed at any great length in Committee, and a matter which concerns not a small number of persons whose life interest in a business may be affected, but one which affects the contribution of local authorities to the housing of agricultural workers in every parish in England. If there is a matter of importance at all, surely it is this matter. It was not discussed at any great length in Committee. If we are to have Clauses re-committed by this extraordinary procedure, for which the Minister is responsible, surely here is a case where we ought to have a matter examined with great care. Quite insufficient has been done for the agricultural workers, and if opportunity occurs I would like to move that more be done.

Question put, "That those words be there added."

The House divided: Ayes, 64; Noes, 264.

Division No. 199.]AYES.[6.24 p.m.
Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. ChristopherBatey, JosephBrown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield)
Attlee, Clement RichardBernays, RobertCleary, J. J.
Banfield, John WilliamBevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale)Cocks, Frederick Seymour
Cove, William G.Hamilton, Sir R. W. (Orkney & Z'tl'nd)Milner, Major James
Daggar, GeorgeHarris, Sir PercyParkinson, John Allen
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)Hicks, Ernest GeorgePickering, Ernest H.
Davies, Stephen OwenHoldsworth, HerbertRathbone, Eleanor
Dobbie, WilliamJanner, BarnettRea, Walter Russell
Edwards, CharlesJenkins, Sir WilliamSalter, Dr. Alfred
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univ.)Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwan)
Foot, Dingle (Dundee)Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)Sinclair, Maj. Rt. Hn. Sir A. (C'thness)
Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin)Lawson, John JamesSmith, Tom (Normanton)
Gardner, Benjamin WalterLeonard, WilliamStrauss, G. R. (Lambeth, North)
George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)Llewellyn-Jones, FrederickThorne, William James
George, Megan A. Lloyd (Anglesea)Logan, David GilbertTinker, John Joseph
Greenwood, Rt. Hon. ArthurLunn, WilliamWhite, Henry Graham
Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro', W.)McEntee, Valentine L.Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly)
Griffiths, George A. (Yorks, W. Riding)Mainwaring, William HenryWilliams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)
Groves, Thomas E.Mallalieu, Edward LancelotYoung, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.)
Grundy, Thomas W.Mander, Geoffrey le M.
Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil)Maxton, JamesTELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Mr. Paling and Mr. John.
NOES.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-ColonelDuncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)Kerr, Hamilton W.
Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.)Dunglass, LordKeyes, Admiral Sir Roger
Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G.Eastwood, John FrancisKimball, Lawrence
Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l, W.)Ellis, Sir R. GeoffreyLamb, Sir Joseph Quinton
Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd.)Elliston, Captain George SampsonLambert, Rt. Hon. George
Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent)Emrys-Evans, P. V.Law, Sir Alfred
Assheton, RalphEntwistle, Cyril FullardLeckle, J. A.
Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)Erskine-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Blackpool)Leech, Dr. J. W.
Bailey, Eric Alfred GeorgeEvans, Capt. Arthur (Cardiff, S.)Lees-Jones, John
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. StanleyFleming, Edward LascellesLeighton, Major B. E. P.
Balniel, LordFox, Sir GiffordLonnox-Boyd, A. T.
Barclay-Harvey, C. M.Fremantle, Sir FrancisLevy, Thomas
Beauchamp, Sir Brograve CampbellGanzoni, Sir JohnLindsay, Kenneth (Kilmarnock)
Beit, Sir Alfred L.Gillett, Sir George MastermanLittle, Graham-, Sir Ernest
Benn, Sir Arthur ShirleyGilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir JohnLlewellin, Major John J.
Birchall, Major Sir John DearmanGlossop, C. W. H.Lloyd, Geoffrey
Blindell, JamesGluckstein, Louis HalleLockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.)
Boothby, Robert John GrahamGoff, Sir ParkLoder, Captain J. de Vere
Bossom, A. C.Goldie, Noel B.Loftus, Pierce O.
Boulton, W. W.Goodman, Colonel Albert W.Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander
Bowater, Col. Sir T. VansittartGower, Sir RobertMacAndrew, Lieut.-Col. C. G. (Partick)
Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.Grattan-Doyle, Sir NicholasMacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)
Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)Granfell, E. C. (City of London)McCorquodale, M. S.
Brass, Captain Sir WilliamGretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. JohnMacdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)
Broadbent, Colonel JohnGrigg, Sir EdwardMaclay, Hon. Joseph Paton
Brocklebank, C. E. R.Grimston, R. V.McLean, Major Sir Alan
Brown, Ernest (Leith)Guest Capt. Rt Hon. F. E.McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks., Newb'y)Guinness, Thomas L. E. B.Macquisten, Frederick Alexander
Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.Gunston, Captain D. W.Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest
Burnett, John GeorgeGuy, J. C. MorrisonManningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M.
Campbell, Sir Edward Tasweil (Brmly)Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.
Campbell, Vice-Admiral G. (Burnley)Hales, Harold K.Marsden, Commander Arthur
Caporn, Arthur CecilHamilton, Sir George (Ilford)Martin, Thomas B.
Castlereagh, ViscountHanbury, CecilMason, Col. Glyn K. (Croydon, N.)
Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City)Hannon, Patrick Joseph HenryMayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.)Harbord, ArthurMeller, Sir Richard James (Mitcham)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston)Hartington, Marquess ofMellor, Sir J. S. P.
Chapman, Col. R. (Houghton-le-Spring)Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)Mills, Sir Frederick (Leyton, E.)
Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.)Heilgere, Captain F. F. A.Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)
Chorlton, Alan Ernest LeofricHerbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)Mitchell, Harold P. (Br'tf'd & Chisw'k)
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston SpencerHerbert, Capt. S. (Abbey Division)Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streathsm)
Clayton, Sir ChristopherHills, Major Rt. Hon. John WallerMolson, A. Hugh Elsdale
Cobb, Sir CyrilHope, Capt. Hon. A. O. J. (Aston)Monsell, Rt. Hon. Sir B. Eyres
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.Hornby, FrankMoreing, Adrian C.
Colfox, Major William PhilipHorne, Rt. Sir Robert S.Morgan, Robert H.
Collins, Rt. Hon. Sir GodfreyHorobin, Ian M.Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)
Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J.Horsbrugh, FlorenceMuirhead, Lieut.-Colonel A. J.
Conant, R. J. E.Howard, Tom ForrestMunro, Patrick
Cook, Thomas A.Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.
Cooke, DouglasHudson, Robert Spear (Southport)Norie-Miller, Francis
Copeland, IdaHume, Sir George HopwoodNorth, Edward T.
Crookshank, Col. C. de Windt (Bootle)Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries)Nunn, William
Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro)Hurst, Sir Gerald B.Orr Ewing, I. L.
Crossley, A. C.Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas W. H.Peake, Osbert
Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel BernardIveagh, Countess ofPearson, William G.
Culverwell, Cyril TomJackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.)Penny, Sir George
Dalkeith, Earl ofJackson, J. C. (Heywood & Radcliffe)Percy, Lord Eustace
Davies, Edward C. (Montgomery)Jamieson, DouglasPerkins, Walter R. D.
Denman, Hon. R. D.Jennings, RolandPetherick, M.
Despencer-Robertson, Major J. A. F.Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Drewe, CedricJones, Lewis (Swansea, West)Peto, Geoffrey K. (W'verh'pt'n, Bilston)
Duckworth, George A. V.Ker, J. CampbellPickthorn, K. W. M.
Dugdale, Captain Thomas LlonalKerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose)Pike, Cecil F.
Pownall, Sir AsshetonShaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)
Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)Shaw, Captain William T. (Fortar)Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)
Ramsbotham, HerwaldShepperson, Sir Ernest W.Thompson, Sir Luke
Ramsden, Sir EugeneSmiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D.Thorp, Linton Theodore
Rankin, RobertSmith, Bracewell (Dulwich)Todd, A. L. S. (Kingswinford)
Reid, James S. C. (Stirling)Smith, Sir J. Walker- (Barrow-in-F.)Turton, Robert Hugh
Reid, William Allan (Derby)Smithers, Sir WaldronWallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey)
Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U.Somervell, Sir DonaldWallace, Sir John (Dunfermline)
Rickards, George WilliamSoper, RichardWard, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)
Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.Ward, Irene Marv Bewick (Wallsend)
Robinson, John RolandSouthby, Commander Archibald R. J.Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)
Ropner, Colonel L.Spencer, Captain Richard A.Watt, Major George Steven H.
Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)Spender-Clay, Rt. Hon. Herbert H.Wells, Sydney Richard
Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir EdwardSpens, William PatrickWilliams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde)Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)
Russell, Hamer Field (Sheffield, B'tside)Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'morland)Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury)Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l)Stones, JamesWise, Alfred R.
Salmon, Sir IsidoreStourton, Hon. John J.Withers, Sir John James
Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham)Strauss, Edward A.Womersley, Sir Walter
Samuel, M. R. A. (W'ds'wth, Putney).Strickland, Captain W. F.Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir H. Kingsley
Sanderson, Sir Frank BarnardStuart, Lord C. Crichton-Worthington, Dr. John V.
Sandys, DuncanSueter, Rear-Admiral Sir Murray F.Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'v'noaks)
Savery, ServingtonSugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart
Selley, Harry R.Sutcliffe, HaroldTELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.Tate, Mavis ConstanceSir Victor Warrender and Major
George Davies.

Photo of Mr George Hicks Mr George Hicks , Woolwich East

I wish to move, after the words last added, to add: and of the new Clause (Building materials) standing in the names of Mr. Hicks and Mr. McEntee. Whatever reasons may have been advanced for other additions to this Motion, I am confident that equally strong and even stronger reasons can be produced for the addition which I now suggest. I do not know whether I shall be justified in following up the observation of the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. A. Bevan) as to moving these Amendments, in order to see if we could spot the winner—

Photo of Lieut-General Edward Fitzroy Lieut-General Edward Fitzroy , Daventry

Perhaps I may shorten the proceedings by saying at this stage that I propose to put into operation the power which the House has given me of selection, and that I do not propose to accept any more Amendments to this Motion.

Main Question, as amended, again proposed.

6.36 p.m.

Photo of Mr Arthur Greenwood Mr Arthur Greenwood , Wakefield

I beg to move, "That the Debate be now adjourned."

We have had to-day an exhibition on the part of the Government which, I hope, for the sake of the House, will never be repeated. Never within living memory has any Government dreamt of accepting Amendments to a recommittal Motion.

Photo of Mr Tom Smith Mr Tom Smith , Normanton

Not since Shakespeare's time.

Photo of Mr Arthur Greenwood Mr Arthur Greenwood , Wakefield

The right hon. Gentleman the Minister began, quite pro- perly, by refusing to accept the first Amendment, but then in a moment of weakness—whether it was due to the eloquence of the Noble Lord or not I do not know—he set a new constitutional precedent by accepting two Amendments to the Motion thus permitting any Member of the House who wished to do so to seek to make further additions to the Motion. It allowed hon. Members to seek to reopen, in a way which brings us very close to the Standing Orders of the House, financial questions which normally would not be accepted because of the Money Resolution governing the Bill. To-day owing to the action of the right hon. Gentleman and but for your wise intervention, Mr. Speaker, the proceedings of the House would have been reduced to a farce. It would have been open to Members to move Amendment after Amendment adding Clause after Clause to the Motion. That is not the way in which this House has been run in the past and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman to-night will take as his bedside book Erskine May's "Parliamentary Practice" in order to find whether there is any parallel for the proceedings of this afternoon.

However, that is not the main point of my Motion. I wish to get a statement from the Government as to their intention now, about the time to be allowed for the remaining proceedings on this Bill. Already three hours of Parliamentary time have been wasted by the right hon. Gentleman. I do not want to make any small case about this matter. I rest my case for the reconsideration of the allotted time on the ground that this House ought not to have to pay for the Minister's indiscretion. We spent 20 days in Committee on this Bill and no Member of that Committee can charge me with having tried to hold up the business. I sought reasonable opportunities for debate on the Amendments, in which my hon. Friends and I were interested. We did indeed on certain occasions support the Government and on one occasion we saved the Government from destruction, to the indignation of the hon. Member for South Croydon (Mr. H. Williams)—the friend of the Noble Lord the Member for Horsham (Earl Winterton). A very large amount of the time spent in Committee, I may now disclose to the House, was taken up by the Members of a group who in the Committee were known as "the awkward squad," of whom the Noble Lord was the leader, very ably assisted by the hon. Member for South Croydonand the hon. and learned Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Thorp).

Now the Bill comes back to the House after 20 days in Committee, and we are told that there are to be three days for all its remaining stages. But we discover to-day that there is are committal Motion on the Paper. In any event, such a Motion was bound to take up a certain amount of time, and here we find ourselves at 20 minutes to seven o'clock in the evening just about to begin the Report stage which normally ought to have been started at about four o'clock. Not only so, but the recommittal of these Clauses has opened up possibilities ofdiscussion—subject, of course, to the Amendments being called by you, Mr. Speaker—which were not realised by us when the original statement was made that there were to be three days Debate on the remaining stages. I suggest that there ought to be a reconsideration now by the Government of the time allotted to the Report stage and Third Reading. I have not been guilty of fractious opposition on this Bill but I am bound to say that the Government will repent this waste of time unless they are prepared to make it up. I could not and my hon. Friends could not consent to what is virtually only two days discussion on the remaining stages of the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman himself has admitted to two of his own supporters that there ought to have been more time for discussion.

I do not want to be unreasonable, and I do not think I am putting it too high if I ask the Government to give us one more day. I think we are entitled to one day for the Third Reading. There are pages of Amendments on the Report stage, and we have really only two full days left for discussion. That is miserably inadequate, having regard to the fact that "the awkward squad" have put down the usual number of Amendments, and will no doubt be heard if those Amendments are called, while we on this side will have a claim to be heard if you; Mr. Speaker, decide to call our Amendments. In the time available, if the Report stage is to be concluded by Friday evening, I submit that there cannot be a full discussion of such Amendments as are called, and if the Report stage is to be carried over until Monday, there cannot be an adequate final discussion on the Third Reading of the Bill. I hope that the Minister will be prepared to make this concession in view of the waste of time which has been caused. I am not blaming either the hon. Member for Central Leeds (Mr. Denman) or the Noble Lord the Member for Hastings (Lord E. Percy) for that waste of time. The waste of time is due to the right hon. Gentleman and he should be prepared to accept the responsibility. I hope that the Government will agree to give us another day. It would not have been an unreasonable request, even if we had started the discussion of the Bill immediately after Questions. It is certainly not unreasonable now, in view of the results of this faux pas on the part of the right hon. Gentleman. I hope that hon. Members opposite who are interested in many phases of this question will support me in my Motion, unless the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to give us adequate time for the further stages of the Bill.

6.45 p.m.

Photo of Mr Edward Young Mr Edward Young , Sevenoaks

I do not intend to say, in reply to the right hon. Gentle man, any words which will be unnecessarily controversial, because the House will agree with me that what we most desire is to get on with the Housing Bill, and to give it that full consideration it deserves in a spirit of friendly consideration and without any unnecessary causes of disagreement before we even start on our business. I do not agree with the right hon. Gentleman's description of to-day's proceedings. I am not going to argue where the exact responsibility lies for the time they have occupied, for that might raise a controversial matter, but I would say that the procedure of His Majesty's Government and, I think, of my friend son this side of the House, has been inspired throughout by a single desire to get this Bill discussed under the most favourable terms possible. As regards the procedure, there has been no departure from the strict rules of order. In the strong hands of the Chair we are safe in that respect. As regards the spirit of the procedure, there has been no departure from that either. No one is more entitled to express an opinion on that subject than my right hon. Friend the Member for West Birmingham (Sir A. Chamberlain), and if I have his support, with his long knowledge of the procedure and practice of the House, I have support which is strong indeed.

The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Greenwood)raised the question of the time to be given to this Bill. That must be judged in a purely realist spirit. We have not yet begun the discussion of the Bill, and until we have done so and made some little progress we shall not be able to discover how long it is likely to take and what time we shall require.

Photo of Mr Edward Young Mr Edward Young , Sevenoaks

I think that I had better finish what I was saying. The right hon. Gentleman interrupted me as I was coming to my material point. We cannot tell what time we shall want until we come to the actual work of discussing the Bill, but it is very far from the intention of the Government to hurry the House or to put on any pressure with a Bill of such great importance and of such great complexity and interest. The fact that we spent 20 days on it in Committee

upstairs shows that it is an interesting Bill which requires full discussion. If in the course of the proceedings we find we are being pressed for time, I suggest that communications should be made through the usual channels, and I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that they will receive sympathetic consideration, but it will be premature to come to any decision about time now. With that assurance as regards the intention of the Government, I hope that the House will allow the business to proceed.

6.49 p.m.

Photo of Mr Arthur Greenwood Mr Arthur Greenwood , Wakefield

I would like to put to the right hon. Gentleman the question I should have put if he had permitted me to do so when he was speaking. The Government thought in their wisdom that Thursday, Friday and Monday gave adequate time for the Bill as it was when it left the Standing Committee. It is now ten minutes to seven, and three hours have already gone. Moreover, the House has accepted certain Amendments which will permit a prolonged discussion if Mr. Speaker chooses to call the Amendments. If the time-table were right for the Bill as it was printed, obviously it is in adequate now because of what has happened today. If the right hon. Gentleman tells us that he is prepared to discuss the question of time later, that does not seem to me to be very satisfactory. I put this question to him specifically. In view of the fact that the Government thought the time was reasonable before to-day's happenings, can it be regarded as reasonable now in view of the time we have taken to-day, and in view of the fact that the area of the discussion has been widened? Will the right hon. Gentleman agree now to give us more time? The House is entitled to more time because the area of discussion is larger than it was, and the amount of time available is shorter.

Question put, "That the Debate be now adjourned."

The House divided: Ayes, 61; Noes, 263.

Division No. 200.]AYES.[6.52 p.m.
Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. ChristopherCleary, J. J.Dobbie, William
Attlee, Clement RichardCocks, Frederick SeymourEdwards, Charles
Banfield, john WilliamCove, William G.Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univ.)
Batey, JosephDaggar, GeorgeFoot, Dingle (Dundee)
Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale)Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin)
Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield)Davies, Stephen OwenGardner, Benjamin Walter
George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)Leonard, WilliamRea, Walter Russell
George, Megan A. Lloyd (Anglesea)Llewellyn-Jones, FrederickSalter, Dr. Alfred
Greenwood, Rt. Hon. ArthurLogan, David GilbertSamuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H (Darwen)
Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)Lunn, WilliamSinclair, Maj. Rt. Hn. Sir A. (C'thness)
Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro', W.)Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)Smith, Tom (Normanton)
Griffiths, George A. (Yorks, W. Riding)McEntee, Valentine L.Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, North)
Grundy, Thomas W.Mainwaring, William HenryThorne, William James
Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil)Mallalieu, Edward LancelotTinker, John Joseph
Hamilton, Sir R. W. (Orkney & Zetl'nd)Mander, Geoffrey le M.White, Henry Graham
Harris, Sir PercyMason, David M. (Edinburgh, E.)Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Hicks, Ernest GeorgeMilner, Major JamesWilliams, Edward John (Ogmore)
Jenkins, Sir WilliamOwen, Major GoronwyWilliams Thomas (York, Don Valley)
Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)Paling, WilfredYoung, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.)
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)Parkinson, John Allen
Lawson, John JamesPickering, Ernest H.TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Mr. John and Mr. Groves.
NOES.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-ColonelDuncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)Law, Sir Alfred
Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.)Dunglass, LordLeckle, J. A.
Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G.Eastwood, John FrancisLeech, Dr. J. W.
Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l, W.)Elliot, Rt. Hon. WalterLees-Jones, John
Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman, (B'k'nh'd)Ellis, Sir R. GeoffreyLeighton, Major B. E. P.
Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent)Elliston, Captain George SampsonLennox-Boyd, A. T.
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.Emrys-Evans, P. V.Levy, Thomas
Applin, Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K.Entwistle, Cyril FullardLindsay, Kenneth (Kilmarnock)
Assheton, RalphErskine-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Bik'pool)Little, Graham-, Sir Ernest
Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)Evans, Capt. Arthur (Cardiff, S.)Llewellin, Major John J.
Bailey, Eric Alfred GeorgeFielden, Edward BrocklehurstLloyd, Geoffrey
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. StanleyFleming, Edward LascellesLockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.)
Balfour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet)Fox, Sir GiffordLoder, Captain J. de Vere
Balniel, LordFremantle, Sir FrancisLoftus, Pierce C.
Barclay-Harvey, C. M.Ganzoni, Sir JohnLovat-Fraser, James Alexander
Beauchamp, Sir Brograve CampbellGillett, Sir George MastermanMacAndrew, Lieut.-Col. C. G. (Partick)
Beit, Sir Alfred L.Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir JohnMacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)
Benn, Sir Arthur ShirleyGtossop, C. W. H.McCorquodale, M. S.
Bernays, RobertGluckstein, Louis HalleMacdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)
Birchall, Major Sir John DearmanGoff, Sir ParkMaclay, Hon. Joseph Paton
Blindell, JamesGoldie, Noel B.McLean, Major Sir Alan
Bossom, A. C.Goodman, Colonel Albert W.McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)
Boulton, W. W.Gower, Sir RobertMacmillan, Maurice Harold
Bowater, Col. Sir T. VansittartGrenfell, E. C. (City of London)Macpherson, Rt. Hon. Sir Ian
Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. JohnMacquisten, Frederick Alexander
Braithwaite, Maj. A. N. (Yorks, E. R.)Grimston, R. V.Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M.
Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E.Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.
Brass, Captain Sir WilliamGuinness, Thomas L. E. B.Martin, Thomas B.
Broadbent, Colonel JohnGunston, Captain D. W.Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John
Brocklebank, C. E. R.Guy, J. C. MorrisonMellor, Sir J. S. P.
Brown, Ernest (Leith)Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.Mills, Sir Frederick (Leyton, E.)
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks., Newb'y)Hales, Harold K.Mitchell, Harold P. (Br'tf'd S Chisw'k)
Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Burghley, LordHanbury, CecilMolson, A. Hugh Elsdale
Burnett, John GeorgeHannon, Patrick Joseph HenryMonsell, Rt. Hon. Sir B. Eyres
Campbell, Sir Edward Taswell (Brmly)Harbord, ArthurMoreing, Adrian C.
Campbell, Vice-Admiral G. (Burnley)Hartington, Marquess ofMorgan, Robert H.
Caporn, Arthur CecilHarvey, George (Lambeth, Kenningt'n)Muirhead, Lieut.-Colonel A. J.
Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester. City)Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)Munro, Patrick
Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.)Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)Norie-Miller, Francis
Chapman, Col. R. (Houghton-le-Spring)Herbert, Capt. S. (Abbey Division)North, Edward T.
Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.)Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John WallerNunn, William
Chorlton, Alan Ernest LeofricHoldsworth, HerbertO'Connor, Terence James
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston SpencerHope, Capt. Hon. A. O. J. (Aston)Orr Ewing, I. L.
Clayton, Sir ChristopherHornby, FrankPeake, Osbert
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.Pearson, William G.
Colfox, Major William PhilipHorobin, Ian M.Penny, Sir George
Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J.Horsbrugh, FlorencePercy, Lord Eustace
Conant, R. J. E.Howard, Tom FerrestPerkins, Walter R. D.
Cook, Thomas A.Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)Petherick, M.
Cooke, DouglasHudson, Robert Spear (Southport)Peto, Geoffrey K. (W'verh'pt'n, Bilst'n)
Copeland, IdaHume, Sir George HopwoodPike, Cecil F.
Craven-Ellis, WilliamHunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries)Pownall, Sir Assheton
Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.Hurst, Sir Gerald B.Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)
Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro)Iveagh, Countess ofRamsbotham, Harwald
Croom-Johnton, R. P.Jamieson, DouglasRamsden, Sir Eugene
Crossley, A. C.Jennings, RolandRankin, Robert
Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel BernardJones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)Reid, James. C. (Stirling)
Culverwell, Cyril TomJones, Lewis (Swansea, West)Reid, William Allan (Derby)
Davies, Edward C. (Montgomery)Ker, J. CampbellRhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U.
Davison, Sir William Henry.Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose)Rickards, George William
Denman, Hon. R. D.Kerr, Hamilton W.Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)
Despencer-Robertson, Major J. A. F.Keyes, Admiral Sir RogerRobinson, John Roland
Drewe, CedricKimball, LawrenceRopner, Colonel L.
Duckworth, George A. V.Knox, Sir AlfredRoss Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)
Dugdale, Captain Thomas LionelLambert, Rt. Hon. GeorgeRuggles-Brise, Colonel Sir Edward
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)Sotheron-Estcourt. Captain T. E.Todd, A. L. S. (Kingswinford)
Russell, Hamer Field (Sheffield, B'tside)Southby, Commander Archibald R. J.Turton, Robert Hugh
Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury)Spencer, Captain Richard A.Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey)
Rutherford, John (Edmonton)Spender-Clay, Rt. Hon. Herbert H.Wallace, Sir John (Dunfermline)
Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l)Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde)Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)
Salmon, Sir IsidoreStanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'morland)Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)
Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham)Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)
Samuel, M. R. A. (W'ds'wth, Putney)Stones, JamesWarrender, Sir Victor A. G.
Sandys, DuncanStourton, Hon. John J.Wells, Sydney Richard
Savery, ServingtonStrauss, Edward A.Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)
Selley, Harry R.Strickland, Captain W. F.Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)
Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir Murray F.Wise, Alfred R.
Shepperson, Sir Ernest W.Sugden, Sir Wilfrid HartWithers, Sir John James
Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D.Summersby, Charles H.Womersley, Sir Walter
Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)Sutcliffe, HaroldWood, Rt. Hon. Sir H. Kingsley
Smith, Sir J. Walker-(Barrow-in-F.)Tate, Mavis ConstanceWorthington, Dr. John V.
Smithers, Sir WaldronTaylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'v'oake)
Somervell, Sir DonaldThomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)
Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)Thompson, Sir LukeTELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East)Thorp, Linton TheodoreMajor George Davies and Dr.
Soper, RichardTitchfield, Major the Marquess ofMorris-Jones.

Main Question, as amended, put.

The House divided: Ayes, 248; Noes, 55.

Division No. 201.]AYES.[7.2 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-ColonelCruddas, Lieut.-Colons BernardHudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)
Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.)Culverwell, Cyril TomHudson, Robert Spear (Southport)
Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G.Davies, Edward C. (Montgomery)Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries)
Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l, W.)Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)Hurst, Sir Gerald B.
Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd)Davison, Sir William HenryIveagh, Countess of
Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent)Denman, Hon. R. D.Jamieson, Douglas
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S.Despencer-Robertson, Major J. A. F.Jennings, Roland
Applin, Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K.Drewe, CedricJones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)
Assheton, RalphDuckworth, George A. V.Jones, Lewis (Swansea, West)
Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover)Dugdale, Captain Thomas LionelKer, J. Campbell
Bailey, Eric Alfred GeorgeDuncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose)
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. StanleyDunglass, LordKerr, Hamilton W.
Balfour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet)Eastwood, John FrancisKimball, Lawrence
Balniel, LordEills, Sir R. GeoffreyLamb, Sir Joseph Quinton
Barclay-Harvey, C. M.Elliston, Captain George SampsonLambert, Rt. Hon. George
Beauchamp, Sir Brograve CampbellEmrys-Evans, P. V.Law, Sir Alfred
Beit, Sir Alfred L.Entwistle, Cyril FullardLeckle, J. A.
Benn, Sir Arthur ShirleyErskine-Bolst, Cant. C. C. (Blackpool)Leech, Dr. J. W.
Bernays, RobertEvans, Capt. Arthur (Cardiff, S.)Lees-Jones, John
Birchall, Major Sir John DearmanFielden, Edward BrocklehurstLeighton, Major B. E. P.
Blindell, JamesFleming, Edward LascellesLennox-Boyd, A. T.
Boothby, Robert John GrahamFox, Sir GiffordLevy, Thomas
Bossom, A. C.Fremantle, Sir FrancisLindsay, Kenneth (Kilmarnock)
Boulton, W. W.Ganzoni, Sir JohnLittle, Graham-, Sir Ernest
Bowater, Col. Sir T. VansittartGillett, Sir George MastermanLlewellin, Major John J.
Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir JohnLloyd, Geoffrey
Braithwaite, Maj. A. H. (Yorks, E. R.)Glossop, C. W. H.Lockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.)
Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)Gluckstein, Louis HalleLoder, Captain J. de Vere
Brass, Captain Sir WilliamGoff, Sir ParkLoftus, Pierce C.
Broadbent, Colonel JohnGoldie, Noel B.Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander
Brocklebank, C. E. R.Goodman, Colonel Albert W.MacAndrew, Lt.-Col. C. G. (Partick)
Brown, Ernest (Leith)Gower, Sir RobertMacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks., Newb'y)Grenfell, E. C. (City of London)McCorquodale, M. S.
Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.Grimston, R. V.Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)
Burghley, LordGuest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E.McLean, Major Sir Alan
Burnett, John GeorgeGunston, Captain D. W.McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)
Campbell, Sir Edward Taswell (Brmly)Guy, J. C. MorrisonMacpherson, Rt. Hon. Sir Ian
Campbell, Vice-Admiral G. (Burnley)Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.Macquisten, Frederick Alexander
Caporn, Arthur CecilHales, Harold K.Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir. M.
Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City)Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W)Hannon, Patrick Joseph HenryMartin, Thomas B.
Chapman, Col. R. (Houghton-le-Spring)Harbord, ArthurMayhew, Lieut. Colonel John
Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.)Hartington, Marquess ofMellor, Sir J. S. P.
Chorlton, Alan Ernest LeofricHarvey, George (Lambeth, Kenningt'n)Mills, Sir Frederick (Leyton, E.)
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston SpencerHaslam, Henry (Horncastle)Mitchell, Harold P. (Br'tf'd & Chisw'k)
Clayton, Sir ChristopherHeilgers, Captain F. F. A.Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.Herbert, Major J. A. Monmouth)Monsell, Rt. Hon. Sir B. Eyres
Colfox, Major William PhilipHerbert, Capt. S. (Abbey Division)Moreing, Adrian C.
Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J.Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John WallerMorgan, Robert H.
Conant, R. J. E.Holdsworth, HerbertMorris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)
Cooke, DouglasHope, Capt. Hon. A. O. J. (Aston)Munro, Patrick
Copeland, IdaHornby, FrankNation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.
Craven-Ellis, WilliamHorne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S.Norie-Miller, Francis
Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro)Horobin, Ian M.North, Edward T.
Croom-Johnson, R. P.Horsbrugh, FlorenceNunn, William
Crouley, A. C.Howard, Tom ForrestO'Connor, Terence James
Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G. A.Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l)Summersby, Charles H.
Orr Ewing, I. L.Salmon, Sir IsidoreSutcliffe, Harold
Pearson, William G.Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham)Tate, Mavis Constance
Peat, Charles U.Samuel, M. R. A. (W'ds'wth, Putney).Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)
Penny, Sir GeorgeSandys, DuncanThomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)
Percy, Lord EustaceSavery, ServingtonThompson Sir Luke
Perkins, Walter R. D.Selley, Harry R.Thorp, Linton Theodore
Petherick, M.Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Peto, Geoffrey K. (W'verh'pt'n, Bilston)Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)Todd, A. L. S. (Kingswinford)
Pownall, Sir AsshetonShepperson, Sir Ernest W.Turton, Robert Hugh
Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey)
Ramsbotham, HerwaldSmith, Sir J. Walker-(Barrow-in-F.)Wallace, Sir John (Dunfermline)
Ramsden, Sir EugeneSomervell, Sir DonaldWard, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)
Rankin, RobertSomerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wailsend)
Reid, James S. C. (Stirling)Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East)Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)
Reid, William Allan (Derby)Soper, RichardWarrender, Sir Victor A. G.
Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U.Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.Wedderburn, Henry James Scrymgeour-
Rickards, George WilliamSpencer, Captain Richard A.Wells, Sydney Richard
Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)Spender-Clay, Rt. Hon. Herbert H.Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)
Robinson, John RolandStanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'morland)Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)
Ropner, Colonel L.Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.)Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Ross, Ronald D.Stones, JamesWise, Alfred R.
Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)Stourton, Hon. John J.Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir H. Kingsley
Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir EdwardStrauss, Edward A.Worthington, Dr. John V.
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)Strickland, Captain W. F.Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'v'oaks)
Rimed, Hamer Field (Sheffield, B'tside)Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-
Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury)Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir Murray F.TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Rutherford, John (Edmonton)Sugden, Sir Wilfrid HartSir Walter Womersley and
Commander Southby.
NOES.
Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. ChristopherGriffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro', W.)Pickering, Ernest H.
Attlee, Clement RichardGriffiths, George A. (Yorks, W. Riding)Rea, Walter Russell
Banfield, John WilliamGrundy, Thomas W.Salter, Dr. Alfred
Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale)Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil)Samuel Rt. Hon. Sir H (Darwen)
Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield)Harris, Sir PercySinclair, Maj. Rt. Hn. Sir A. (C'thness)
Cocks, Frederick SeymourHicks, Ernest GeorgeSmith, Tom (Normanton)
Cove, William G.Jenkins, Sir WilliamStrauss, G. R. (Lambeth, North)
Daggar, GeorgeJones, Morgan (Caerphilly)Thorne, William James
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)Lawson, John JamesTinker John Joseph
Davies, Stephen OwenLeonard, WilliamWedgwood, Rt. Hon. Joseph
Dobbie, WilliamLunn, WilliamWhite, Henry Graham
Edwards, CharlesMacdonald, Gordon (Ince)
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univ.)McEntee, Valentine L.Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Foot, Dingle (Dundee)Mainwaring, William HenryWilliams, Edward John (Ogmore)
Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin)Mander, Geoffrey le M.Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)
Gardner, Benjamin WalterMason, David M. (Edinburgh, E.)Young, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.)
George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)Milner, Major James
George, Megan A. Lloyd (Anglesea)Owen, Major GoronwyTELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Greenwood, Rt. Hon. ArthurPaling, WilfredMr. John and Mr. Groves.
Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)Parkinson, John Allen

Question "That the Clause be read a Second time," put, and agreed to.

Bill re-committed to a Committee of the Whole House in respect of the Amendments in Clause 10, page 7, line 22, Clause72, page 57, line 2, Clause 78, page 59, line 33, and Clause 85, page 63, line 16, and of the new Clause (Provisions as to apparatus of statutory undertakers in land dealt with by local authorities under the Housing Acts), and of the Amendment to the Title, standing on the Notice Paper in the name of Sir Hilton Young, and in respect of the Amendment in Clause 61, page 50, line 40, standing in the name of Mr. Denman, and of the new Clause (Compensation for owner-occupier) standing in the name of Lord Eustace Percy.

Bill accordingly considered in Committee.

[Captain BOURNE in the Chair.]