Orders of the Day — Illegal Trawling (Scotland) Bill.

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at on 20 March 1934.

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Photo of Mr Frederick Macquisten Mr Frederick Macquisten , Argyll

There have been convictions of Hull and Grimsby skippers. The owners must know of the irregularities committed by their skippers, for they are getting the benefit. It is like a barman selling after hours; he does it for the benefit of his employers, for it increases the trade and makes more profit for the licence holder. It is no use the licence holder saying, "I do not approve of this, and I told him not to do it," for he gets the benefit of it; and in the case of the boats, the owner gets the profits. The skipper may even have a share in it, and that makes it all the worse. I do not think the Bill will hit the Aberdeen people, because I do not think Scotsmen do these things, but in passing the Bill the English people may feel they are getting back something for Bannockburn. In the time of Charles II no English fishing boat was allowed within 28 miles of the Scottish coast. That shows what an enlightened monarch he was. There is no use talking about the number of convictions; that has nothing to do with it. It is the number of offences that count, and I never go to any of the islands where I do not find men wringing their hands because of trawlers coming off their coast within pistol shot and destroying their fishing. Nothing can be done by them and, in despair, they have given up making complaints, for it is very difficult to get hold of the offenders.

There is a loch called Lochindaal in Islay where they used to get the finest plaice or flounders, as large as small halibut and they were beautiful fish. The trawlers came and ruined that fishing. During the War, when the trawlers were mine sweeping, the fish returned, and at the end of the War Lochindaal was full of fish, and the villagers there used it as part of their food. Shortly after the War up came one, two or three trawlers—I do not know the number, but there was more than one—and they spent about 48 hours there and swept the whole place out. Their numbers were covered up and they came back some time afterwards, again with their numbers covered up. The people could do nothing to stop them because they knew the men aboard were desperate fellows. The same thing happened in Portnahaven, a little village not far away from Lochindaal. There is a fine sweep of sea there and there used to be 30 inshore fishing boats manned by fine sturdy fishermen who sent their catches very largely to Northern Ireland. The trawlers destroyed that fishing. Talk about coming within the three-mile limit! They came so close to the shore that they ran aground on one occasion, and some of the men were drowned.

It is the same all over Scotland. The fishery cruisers are not able to catch the trawlers. It is said that seaplanes are wanted, but when a seaplane did go up and get alongside them the trawlers would not allow the airmen on board, but threw lumps of coal at them and drove them off. I think the penalties in this Measure are very moderate. The whole question is, Can these same evil-doers, poachers or pirates, make illegal trawling as worth while when the penalty is £200 as when it was only £100? We have had them coming into Campbeltown, paying the £100 and telling the fishermen that they would go back to the same place and get it back in a night; and they have gone off blowing their whistles in defiance as they cleared the loch, just to show how little they cared about the penalty. I question very much whether the £200 will be a deterrent. I think that instead of saying the fine is to be one "not exceeding £100," it should be "not less than £100," leaving it to the discretion of the sheriff to fix the amount if he finds himself confronting some truculent, defiant fellow. On a third conviction the offender may both be fined and get a term of imprisonment not exceeding six months. Prison may be some deterrent, but I do not know that it will be, because I am inclined to think that the fellow who is cruel enough, and heartless enough, to go in and poach on the territory of the inshore fishermen, knowing the effect the action will have on the fishing ground, is already such a hardened case that a few weeks in durance vile will not have much effect upon him.

Of course, there will be cases where a man breaks the law through inadvertence, going so near the line so as inadvertently to get over it. I have known people trying to compose a letter to slang somebody else and wishing to go as far as ever they dare without being slanderous. People who write letters of that description very often find themselves before a jury and cast in damages. If in these cases a fellow is sailing so very near the line that a slight error of judgment puts him over it, he really ought to take the consequences. Of course, if his story can be accepted, his offence is not so serious, and I have no doubt the Sheriff Substitute will take that into consideration in fixing the penalty.

I think it is a pity that we cannot do a little more to the owners of trawlers engaged in illegal fishing, although the owner should, of course, have an opportunity of clearing himself; but where they have guilty knowledge I should like to get at them both. I am satisfied that in many cases where men proceed again and again to break the law it is because they have got a nod—which is "as good as a wink to a blind horse"—"You get the fish and I will not inquire too carefully how you got it." I have no doubt that they will pay up readily enough—at any rate the English owners will. An Aberdeen owner would, no doubt, have some contempt for an Aberdeen skipper who is caught, feeling that he is not as smart as he ought to be. The Englishman will pay, because he is more likely to have given direct encouragement to the skipper, and may fear that the latter will give him away. I would like something put into the Bill to bring in the owner in every case, unless he could show that the skipper had acted maliciously, with the object of involving him in a transgression of the law. I have known licensing cases where a licence holder was "run in" for some act committed by his barman, and has shown that the barman was under notice and had threatened to get him into trouble, and in that case the licence holder has escaped conviction. We need some provision of that kind, but if we could get at the owner as well as the skipper it would very largely meet the situation.

The point has been put forward that a skipper should lose his certificate. If there is one body of men for whom one has great pity it is those who go down to the sea in ships. Numbers of merchant ships have certificated officers as crew, owing to the tremendous falling off in the number of ships at sea. If a skipper has been convicted a number of times and is deprived of his certificate for five years, at any rate he can go on board a trawler as one of the ordinary hands. It will do him good and give him experience. If he has been a hard master himself it will do him good to get a dose of his own medicine. On the whole I welcome this Measure, which is long overdue. It seems years since this action was recommended, after long and careful investigation. In the meantime, great damage has been wrought round the coast of Scotland, though, admittedly, by a comparatively small number of trawlers. A small minority is quite enough to wreck inshore fishing. I hope that this Measure will have the support of all the best opinion in the trawling industry, and that they will assist in seeing that it is properly administered and in getting evidence against their brethren who sin against the light by engaging in this nefarious practice.