Clause 36. — (Provision and maintenance of training courses.)

Part of Orders of the Day — Unemployment Bill. – in the House of Commons at on 20 February 1934.

Alert me about debates like this

Photo of Mr Aneurin Bevan Mr Aneurin Bevan , Ebbw Vale

That is precisely the point that I am raising. If the language of the Clause as set out now in the Bill, and the legal interpretation of the words "with the approval of the Minister," is that the Unemployment Assistance Board is to be responsible for the training, and not the Minister, then, if we go to the Table, the Clerk will say to us, "You cannot put a question about training, because that is carried on by a statutory board which is set up by an Act and outside the control of Parliament, its expenses being charged on the Consolidated Fund." If, on the other hand, the words "with the approval of the Minister" mean that the Minister is to be responsible for the training centres, then we can question the Minister. That is the issue before the Committee, and I would respectfully represent to you, Sir, that the relationship between a Department and a Member of Parliament is limited and circumscribed by the Statute about which the Member wishes to question the Minister.

We have parted with the first Clause of this second part of the Act, and, therefore, we cannot now put any questions to the Minister with respect to the Unemployment Assistance Board; we can only discuss it on the Vote of Supply, on the report of the board, or by moving a vote of censure. My hon. Friend who moved the Amendment has said, "Here is a very important matter of training centres, and we think that, in order that Parliament may be able to exercise control, these training centres should be set up only under regulations approved by the House." On the other hand, my hon. Friends would be perfectly prepared to say—at least, I think so—that, if the Minister admits that he is going to be responsible directly from day to day for these training centres, we should prefer that form of control, because it gives us the right to criticise the Minister from day to day. Indeed, in those circumstances a Member could move the Adjournment of the House on the ground that the Minister had given his approval to something of which he ought not to have approved, or he could raise the matter on the Adjournment.

Will the Minister be good enough to help us? We are at the moment without the assistance of legal authority on these benches. Perhaps the Solicitor-General would help us by saying what in his judgment is the meaning of the words "with the approval of the Minister," and whether they establish direct responsibility on the part of the Minister for the training to be carried on under the Unemployment Assistance Board. I do not wish to pursue the matter any further, but I believe that Members in all parts of the Committee would be helped if we could learn the significance of these words in the Bill.