Orders of the Day — Schedule.

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons at on 14 November 1933.

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Photo of Mr John Hills Mr John Hills , Ripon

I want to put before this House the reasons why I think that this Bill should not pass into law. In doing so, I give full credit to the humane spirit of the promoters. I quite recognise that they are inspired by the highest humanity, and that they wish to spare birds from suffering. My objection to the Bill is not because of what they intend to do, but of the way in which they do it. In my opinion, they are doing what is right in a wrong way.

May I describe to the House the effect of this Bill? This is the first time that the Bill has been discussed in this House. It passed its Second Reading without discussion and, I understand, it passed its Committee stage very quickly. It is being discussed for the first time on Third Reading. If this Bill passes, it will be, in effect, impossible for anyone to keep any of the birds scheduled in the Bill as a pet. The Schedule includes many popular cage birds such as the chaffinch, the greenfinch, the goldfinch and the bullfinch, and no one will be able to keep such birds as pets, if this Bill passes. The Bill goes far beyond the caging of a bird. It does not only make the caging of such birds impossible, but their possession. Birds cannot he kept, even in large and well constructed and managed avaries, or in zoological gardens, if they are birds of these species. We cannot even do what many people have done in the past, keep a tame bird in a garden. Ravens, jays anal jackdaws, and other birds of that character, are often kept in a state of liberty. That will become practically impossible if this Bill passes.

I ought to say, in passing, that this is made impossible because the Bill prohibits the offering for sale of any bird to which this Act applies. The people who keep these birds are not the wealthy people. They are people who have not the opportunity, which some of us in this House have, of going into the country and taking birds from the nest. An enormous majority of the people that keep British cage-birds are of small means, living in humble circumstances, and it is against them that the Bill is directed. It will fall upon their shoulders, and upon their shoulders alone. If the House thinks that the caging of a bird under proper conditions is in itself cruel and that birds ought not to be caged—I do not think that they do think that—they will, of course, vote for the Bill. If it is the general opinion of this House that the caging of birds even under the best conditions, is a wicked and cruel thing, hon. Members must vote for the Bill, but I ought to say that that is not the opinion of the promoters, who have made it clear—and this comes out in the evidence given before the Select Committee of the House of Lords to which this Bill went—that what they are trying to prevent is not the cruelty in the caging, but in the catching, of the birds.

It is stated, in the minutes of evidence before the Select Committee of the House of Lords, that the cruelty is almost entirely connected with the trafficking and the method of catching. That is contained in question and answer 1125 of the minutes of evidence. It is stated more than once that it is not alleged that there is cruelty in the caging of the birds but in the catching of them, and especially in the methods by which birds are conveyed by the catcher to the market to be sold. The promoters are therefore not accusing the bird-keepers of cruelty. Nor do the Home Office. Summing up the evidence, the Select Committee say that cruelty is almost entirely connected with the catching of birds. The Home Office issued a Memorandum in which it is stated: The Home Office is not in possession of any information which would justify it in expressing an opinion upon the question whether the caging of the birds scheduled is necessarily attended with such an amount of cruelty that it ought to be prohibited. Therefore, the Home Office are not convinced that cruelty exists in the caging of birds. More important than all, in 1919, a Departmental Committee on bird protection reported. It was appointed just before the War. It did not sit during the War, and reported in 1919. It examined 36 witnesses and issued a very long report, with 12 schedules. It went very carefully into the whole question of bird protection, and its chairman was the late Mr. Edwin Montagu, who was very well known to many hon. Members. If there was one man who loved birds it was Mr. Montagu. In paragraph 136 of that report, the Committee say: We have heard a great deal of evidence on the keeping of British birds in cages. Properly safeguarded, we see no reason why the practice should be accompanied by cruelty and many wild birds do in fact live in captivity in perfect health for long periods. The keeping of cage-birds provides many town dwellers with an innocent solace and amusement, and we see no reason for its general abolition. That announcement is far more weighty, and more attention should be given to it than to some of the partisan statements which are contained in the evidence given before the Select Committee. Neither those who promoted the Bill in the House of Lords, nor the Home Office, nor the Departmental Committee, considered that the keeping of birds in cages is cruel. But if some people do think that, consider where that leads. If you say that there is any cruelty in keeping any animal in captivity, why confine the argument to birds? You must carry it on to the zoological gardens, and to all those exhibitions of animals which are a source of pleasure, interest and instruction to a large part of our population. You need not always be logical in your laws, but you must be just, and if it means hitting a part of the population which is poor and not represented in this House you cannot, I think, leave untouched the larger, and perhaps wealthier, population, who take their pleasure in watching animals in the zoos. Any argument which defends the keeping of wild animals in cages in zoological gardens will apply to the keeping of birds under proper conditions.

May I note another very important question? The size of cage may be very small. A bird keeper who keeps a bird in a cage cannot be accused of cruelty, even though the cage is much too small. Under the Protection of Birds Act, 1925, Section 2 (1), the cage need only be of such a size as to enable a bird freely to stretch its wings. I believe that that was Sir Harry Brittain's Bill.