Business of the House.

– in the House of Commons on 29th November 1932.

Alert me about debates like this

Photo of Mr George Lansbury Mr George Lansbury , Poplar Bow and Bromley

May I ask the Prime Minister how far he proposes to go m the event of the Motion to suspend the Eleven o'Clock Rule being carried?

Photo of Mr Ramsay Macdonald Mr Ramsay Macdonald , Seaham

The Eleven o'Clock Rule is being suspended for the London Passenger Transport Bill; the Second Reading of the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill, which is a purely formal stage; and the Motions relating to the appointment of a Joint Select Committee on Gas Undertakings (Basic Prices), and to the Committee of Privileges. The Government hope that good progress will be made in Committee on the London Passenger Transport Bill. It is not the intention of the Government to ask the House to sit inordinately late.

Photo of Sir Waldron Smithers Sir Waldron Smithers , Chislehurst

May I ask the Prime Minister if he has studied the Amendment Paper and the length of the Bill, which includes 14 Schedules and 107 Clauses? There are already 40 pages of Amendments, mostly Government Amendments. Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us the number of days he proposes to allot to this Bill, and whether he means to suspend the Rule on every allotted day? It seems hardly fair, when a Bill comes into the House in such an undigested form that the Government themselves have to put down so many Amendments, that the House should be kept up late for many nights. At the same time many of us who have constituencies on the edge of London are compelled to take part in the Debates and to put our points of view, and I ask that ample time should be given to discuss this important Bill.

Photo of Mr Ramsay Macdonald Mr Ramsay Macdonald , Seaham

The hon. Member's last observation exactly indicates the Government's mind. We will see how things go. I cannot say that I have read every Amendment, but I have read a certain number of sample Amendments, and they are very largely of a merely drafting character. I should like the House to get as far as it can before it rises to-night, because on that will determine how late other sittings have to be.

Photo of Sir William Davison Sir William Davison , Kensington South

Does not the Prime Minister recognise that it is a very unusual thing to move the suspen- sion of the Eleven o'Clock Rule for a Bill which has not been discussed in the House at all, and that this is aggravated in the case of the present Bill where there has been no Second Reading, and further aggravated by the fact that a large number of new Members in the House have never heard the Bill discussed on Second Reading, and are consequently unaware of the reasons for which the Government desire the Bill to be pushed through the House. Surely it is undesirable that the Eleven o'Clock Rule should be suspended before we see how the Amendments are going.

Photo of Mr John Remer Mr John Remer , Macclesfield

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that one Amendment appearing on the Order Paper to-day for the first time occupies nearly three pages of it; and will he give an assurance to the House that in no circumstances will the House have to sit all night to deal with a Bill of this character?

Photo of Mr Ramsay Macdonald Mr Ramsay Macdonald , Seaham

Of course, I cannot give any assurance. That must depend upon progress being made—the reasonableness of the progress—but I do assure the House that it is not our intention to use the suspension of the Eleven o'Clock Rule in an unreasonable way.

Photo of Sir William Davison Sir William Davison , Kensington South

Is there any precedent for the suspension of the Eleven o'Clock Rule in the case of a Bill which has never been discussed in any way in the House?

Photo of Mr Ramsay Macdonald Mr Ramsay Macdonald , Seaham

I should like to have notice of that question before I give a reply.

Photo of Mr George Buchanan Mr George Buchanan , Glasgow Gorbals

May I raise a point of Order on this subject? I am not going into the merits or demerits of the Bill, or whether some Amendments which appear on the Order Paper for the first time are important Amendments or not, because those are not matters for the Prime Minister but are questions for the House. The point I wish to put is that so many Government Amendments have been put down that they would alter in some degree the character of the Bill as it was when it was introduced. Apart from the merits of this particular Measure, I am raising this as a point of Parliamentary procedure, because I feel that it is right to preserve the safeguards for other Bills. I put it to you, Mr. Speaker, that these Government Amend- merits are of such a wide range as really to alter the character of the Bill. Knowing the Chair has always been the custodian of the rights of ordinary Members, I wish to ask whether you cannot rule that this Measure should be withdrawn and be reintroduced as a new Bill?

Photo of Mr Winston Churchill Mr Winston Churchill , Epping

May I ask the Prime Minister whether, in view of the very evident feeling in the House, he will not allow the Debate to begin in the ordinary way, and then see whether progress is adequate, instead of forcing us at this moment to take a decision to suspend the Eleven o'Clock Rule?

Photo of Mr George Lansbury Mr George Lansbury , Poplar Bow and Bromley

Before the Prime Minister answers that question, is it not quite easy for hon. Members who feel as the right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) feels to vote with us?

Photo of Sir William Davison Sir William Davison , Kensington South

Is it not a very unusual thing for a Government to closure its own Members?

Photo of Lieut-General Edward Fitzroy Lieut-General Edward Fitzroy , Daventry

The proper time for me to give any Ruling on this matter is after the Bill has been through Committee and when we arrive at the Report stage. If there is then any question that the Bill has been so altered that it is not the same Bill as was originally read a Second time, of course it will be my duty at that time to point that out to the House.

Photo of Mr William Thorne Mr William Thorne , West Ham Plaistow

I would like to ask the Prime Minister, or someone representing the Board of Trade, whether the Lords Message does not come into conflict with the Committee which has already been sitting for 12 months?

Photo of Mr Ramsay Macdonald Mr Ramsay Macdonald , Seaham

I take it that question refers to the Resolution dealing with gas undertakings?

Photo of Mr Ramsay Macdonald Mr Ramsay Macdonald , Seaham

I am informed that there is no conflict. It is a new point.

Photo of Sir Waldron Smithers Sir Waldron Smithers , Chislehurst

May I ask the Prime Minister whether the feeling of the House is not now quite obvious to him, and whether he will not, even at this hour, withdraw the Motion altogether?

Photo of Mr Ramsay Macdonald Mr Ramsay Macdonald , Seaham

The Eleven o'Clock Rule, as I said before, is to be suspended for this and other things. If there is any intention to take the opportunity of this Division to defeat the Bill altogether—very well; but we feel it is perfectly reasonable to ask the House to begin to-day the Committee stage of the Bill, and let us see how far we can get within a very reasonable time.

Motion made, and Question put, That the Proceedings on Government Business be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—[The Prime Minister.]

The House divided: Ayes, 281; Noes, 60.

Division No. 2.]AYES.[3.48 p.m.
Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir Francis DykeDespencer-Robertton, Major J. A. F.Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas W. H.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-ColonelDickie, John P.Iveagh, Countess of
Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.]Doran, EdwardJackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.)
Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G.Drewe, CedricJesson, Major Thomas E.
Albery, Irving JamesDugdale, Captain Thomas LionelJones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent)Duggan, Hubert JohnKer, J. Campbell
Apsley, LordDuncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)Kerr, Hamilton W.
Aske, Sir Robert WilliamEales, John FrederickKirkpatrick, William M.
Atholl, Duchess ofEdmondson, Major A. J.Knight. Holford
Atkinson. CyrilElliot, Major Rt. Hon. Waiter E.Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton
Baillie, Sir Adrian W. M.Ellis. Sir R. GeoffreyLambert, Rt. Hon. George
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. StanleyElmley, ViscountLaw, Sir Alfred
Bainlet, LordEntwistle, Cyril FullardLeckie, J. A.
Barrle, Sir Charles CouparErskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)Lees-Jones, John
Beauchamp, Sir Brograve CampbellErskine-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Blackpool)Levy, Thomas
Beaumont, M. W. (Bucks., Aylesbury)Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univ.)Liddall, Walter S.
Beaumont, Hon. R.E.B. (Portsm'th,C.)Evans, R. T. (Carmarthen)Lindsay, Noel Ker
Belt, Sir Alfred L.Falle, Sir Bertram G.Llewellin, Major John J.
Benn, Sir Arthur ShirleyFermoy, LordLlewellyn-Jones, Frederick
Bernays, RobertFielden, Edward BrocklehurstLloyd, Geoffrey
Blaker. Sir ReginaldFleming. Edward LascellesLocker-Lampson, Rt. Hn. G. (Wd. G'n)
Blindell, JamesFoot, Dingle (Dundee)Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander
Borodale. ViscountForestier-Walker, Sir LeolinLyons, Abraham Montagu
Bossom, A. C.Fox, Sir GiffordMacAndrew, Lieut.-Col. C. G. (Partick)
Boulton, W. W.Fraser. Captain IanMacAndrew. Capt. J. O. (Ayr)
Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.Fremantle, Sir FrancisMacDonald, Rt. Hn. J. R. (Seaham)
Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)Gault, Lieut.-Col. A. HamiltonMcEwen, Captain J. H. F.
Brass, Captain Sir WilliamGeorge, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)McKeag, William
Briant, FrankGibson, Charles GranvilleMcKie, John Hamilton
Briscoe, Capt. Richard GeorgeGledhill, GilbertMaclay, Hon. Joseph Paton
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd,, Hexham)Glossop, C. W. H.McLean, Major Alan
Brown, Ernest (Leith)Glucksteln, Louis HaileMcLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)
Brown, Brig.-G en. H.C. (Berks., Newb'y)Glyn, Major Ralph G. C.Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.
Browne, Captain A. C.Goodman, Colonel Albert W,Magnay, Thomas
Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.Gower, Sir RobertMaitland, Adam
Burgin, Dr. Edward LeslieGraham, Sir F. Fergus (C'mb'rl'd, N.)Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest
Burnett, John GeorgeGrattan-Doyle, Sir NicholasMander, Geoffrey le M.
Cadogan, Hon. EdwardGraves, MarjorieManningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M.
Campbell, Edward Taswell (Bromley)Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro'.W.)Margesson, Capt. Henry David R.
Caporn, Arthur CecilGrimston, R. V.Martin, Thomas B.
Carver, Major William H.Gunston, Captain D. W.Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John
Castlereagh, ViscountGuy, J. C. MorrisonMills, Sir Frederick (Leyton, E.)
Cayzer, Maj. Sir H. R. (P'rtsm'th, S.)Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)
Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)Hall, Capt. W. D'Arcy (Brecon)Mitchell, Harold P. (Br'tfd & Chisw'k)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston)Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Chapman, Col. R. (Houghton-le-Spring)Hamilton, Sir R. W.(Orkney & Zetl'nd)Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale
Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.)Hammersley, Samuel S.Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Chorlton, Alan Ernest LeofricHanley, Dennis A.Morris, John Patrick (Salford, N.)
Christle, James ArchibaldHarbord, ArthurMorris, Owen Temple (Cardiff, E.)
Clarke, FrankHartland, George A.Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)
Clarry, Reginald GeorgeHarvey, George (Lambeth, Kenningt'n)Moss, Captain H. J.
Clayton, Dr. George C.Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)Muirhead, Major A. J.
Collins, Rt. Hon. Sir GodfreyHaslam, Henry (Horncastle)Munro, Patrick
Colman, N. C. D.Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M.Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.
Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J.Hellgers, Captain F. F. A.Nicholson. Godfrey (Morpeth)
Conant, R. J. E.Heneage. Lieut-Colone[...] Arthur P.Nunn, William
Cooke, DouglasHerbert, Capt. S. (Abbey Division)O'Donovan, Dr. William James
Cooper, A. DuffHills, Major Rt. Hon. John WallerOrmsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G.A.
Copeland, IdaHoldsworth, HerbertPalmer, Francis Noel.
Courtauld, Major John SewellHope, Capt. Hon. A. O. J. (Aston)Patrick, Colin M.
Courthope, Colonel Sir Georga L.Hore-Belisha, LesliePeake, Captain Osbert
Cranborne, ViscountHornby, FrankPearson, William G.
Craven-Ellis, WilliamHorobin, Ian M.Perkins, Walter R. D.
Crooke, J. SmedleyHorsbrugh, FlorencePeters, Dr. Sidney John
Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro)Howitt, Dr. Alfred B.Petherick, M
Cross, R. H.Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)Peto, Geoffrey K. (W'verh'pt'n, Bilston)
Crossley, A. C.Hudson, Robert Spear (Southport)Pickering, Ernest H.
Curry, A. C.Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries)Potter, John
Davies, Ma]. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)Hunter, Capt. M. J. (Brigg)Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H.
Denman, Hon. R. D.Hurd, Sir PercyPownall, Sir Assheton
Denville, AlfredHurst, Sir Gerald B.Procter, Major Henry Adam
Pybus, Percy JohnScone, LordTurton, Robert Hugh
Raikes, Henry V. A. M.Shepperson, Sir Ernest W.Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey)
Ramsay, Alexander (W. Bromwich)Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir JohnWard, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)
Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M. (Midlothian)Sinclair, Ma). Rt. Hn. Sir A. (C'thness)Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)
Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)Skelton, Archibald NoelWard, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)
Ramsden, E.Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)Watt, Captain George Steven H.
Rankin, RobertSmith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine. C.)Wells, Sydney Richard
Rea, Walter RussellSmith-Carington, Neville W.Weymouth, Viscount
Reid, Capt. A. CunninghamSoper, RichardWhite, Henry Graham
Reid, William Allan (Derby)Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.Whiteside, Borras Noel H.
Renwick, Major Gustav A.Southby, Commander Archibald R. J.Whyte, Jardine Bell
Roberts. Aled (Wrexham)Spencer, Captain Richard A.Wills, Wilfrid D.
Robinson, John RolandStanley, Lord (Lancaster, Fylde)Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)
Rosbotham, S. T,Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westmorland)Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Host, Ronald D.Stewart, William J.Womersley, Walter James
Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)Storey, SamuelWood, Rt. Hon. Sir H. Kingsley
Rothschild, James A. deStrauss, Edward A.Wood, Sir Murdoch McKenzie (Banff)
Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E. A.Sueter. Rear-Admiral Murray F.Worthington, Or. John V.
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hillton (S'v'noaks)
Russell. Richard John (Eddisbury)Thompson, LukeYoung, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.)
Rutherford, Sir John HugoTitchfield, Major the Marquess of
Salt, Edward W.Todd, Capt. A. J. K. (B'wick-on-T.)TELLERS FOR THE AYES.
Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham)Touche, Gordon CosmoSir George Penny and Sir Victor
Savery, Samuel ServingtonTryon, Rt. Hon. George ClementWarrender.
NOES.
Attlee, Clement RichardGreenwood, Rt. Hon. ArthurMaxton, lames
Banfield, John WilliamGrenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)Milner, Major James
Batey, JosephGretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. JohnNicholson, Rt. Hn. W. G. (Petersf'ld)
Bowater, Col. Sir T. VansittartGriffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)North, Captain Edward T.
Broadbent, Colonel JohnGrundy, Thomas W.Parkinson, John Allen
Buchanan, GeorgeHall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)Price, Gabriel
Cape, ThomasHall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil)Ray, Sir William
Cautley, Sir Henry S.Harris, Sir PercyRemer, John R.
Chalmers, John RutherfordHicks, Ernest GeorgeSalter, Dr. Alfred
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston SpencerHutchison, W. D. (Essex, Roml'd)Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart
Cocks, Frederick SeymourJohn, WilliamThorne, William James
Cove, William G.Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)Tinker, John Joseph
Cripps, Sir StaffordJones, Morgan (Caerphilly)Todd, A. L. S. (Kingswinford)
Crookshank, Col. C. de Windt (Bootle)Kirk wood, DavidVaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon
Daggar, GeorgeLansbury, Rt. Hon. GeorgeWedgwood, Rt Hon. Josiah
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)Lawson, John JamesWilliams, Edward John (Ogmore)
Davison, Sir William HenryLeonard, WilliamWilliams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)
Dawson, Sir PhilipLogan, David GilbertWilliams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)
Edwards, CharlesLunn, William
Everard, W. LindsayMcEntee, Valentine L.TELLERS FOR THE NOES.
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)Mr. Groves and Mr. G. Macdonald.