– in the House of Commons on 29th November 1932.
May I ask the Prime Minister how far he proposes to go m the event of the Motion to suspend the Eleven o'Clock Rule being carried?
The Eleven o'Clock Rule is being suspended for the London Passenger Transport Bill; the Second Reading of the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill, which is a purely formal stage; and the Motions relating to the appointment of a Joint Select Committee on Gas Undertakings (Basic Prices), and to the Committee of Privileges. The Government hope that good progress will be made in Committee on the London Passenger Transport Bill. It is not the intention of the Government to ask the House to sit inordinately late.
May I ask the Prime Minister if he has studied the Amendment Paper and the length of the Bill, which includes 14 Schedules and 107 Clauses? There are already 40 pages of Amendments, mostly Government Amendments. Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us the number of days he proposes to allot to this Bill, and whether he means to suspend the Rule on every allotted day? It seems hardly fair, when a Bill comes into the House in such an undigested form that the Government themselves have to put down so many Amendments, that the House should be kept up late for many nights. At the same time many of us who have constituencies on the edge of London are compelled to take part in the Debates and to put our points of view, and I ask that ample time should be given to discuss this important Bill.
The hon. Member's last observation exactly indicates the Government's mind. We will see how things go. I cannot say that I have read every Amendment, but I have read a certain number of sample Amendments, and they are very largely of a merely drafting character. I should like the House to get as far as it can before it rises to-night, because on that will determine how late other sittings have to be.
Does not the Prime Minister recognise that it is a very unusual thing to move the suspen- sion of the Eleven o'Clock Rule for a Bill which has not been discussed in the House at all, and that this is aggravated in the case of the present Bill where there has been no Second Reading, and further aggravated by the fact that a large number of new Members in the House have never heard the Bill discussed on Second Reading, and are consequently unaware of the reasons for which the Government desire the Bill to be pushed through the House. Surely it is undesirable that the Eleven o'Clock Rule should be suspended before we see how the Amendments are going.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that one Amendment appearing on the Order Paper to-day for the first time occupies nearly three pages of it; and will he give an assurance to the House that in no circumstances will the House have to sit all night to deal with a Bill of this character?
Of course, I cannot give any assurance. That must depend upon progress being made—the reasonableness of the progress—but I do assure the House that it is not our intention to use the suspension of the Eleven o'Clock Rule in an unreasonable way.
Is there any precedent for the suspension of the Eleven o'Clock Rule in the case of a Bill which has never been discussed in any way in the House?
May I raise a point of Order on this subject? I am not going into the merits or demerits of the Bill, or whether some Amendments which appear on the Order Paper for the first time are important Amendments or not, because those are not matters for the Prime Minister but are questions for the House. The point I wish to put is that so many Government Amendments have been put down that they would alter in some degree the character of the Bill as it was when it was introduced. Apart from the merits of this particular Measure, I am raising this as a point of Parliamentary procedure, because I feel that it is right to preserve the safeguards for other Bills. I put it to you, Mr. Speaker, that these Government Amend- merits are of such a wide range as really to alter the character of the Bill. Knowing the Chair has always been the custodian of the rights of ordinary Members, I wish to ask whether you cannot rule that this Measure should be withdrawn and be reintroduced as a new Bill?
May I ask the Prime Minister whether, in view of the very evident feeling in the House, he will not allow the Debate to begin in the ordinary way, and then see whether progress is adequate, instead of forcing us at this moment to take a decision to suspend the Eleven o'Clock Rule?
Before the Prime Minister answers that question, is it not quite easy for hon. Members who feel as the right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) feels to vote with us?
Is it not a very unusual thing for a Government to closure its own Members?
The proper time for me to give any Ruling on this matter is after the Bill has been through Committee and when we arrive at the Report stage. If there is then any question that the Bill has been so altered that it is not the same Bill as was originally read a Second time, of course it will be my duty at that time to point that out to the House.
I would like to ask the Prime Minister, or someone representing the Board of Trade, whether the Lords Message does not come into conflict with the Committee which has already been sitting for 12 months?
I take it that question refers to the Resolution dealing with gas undertakings?
May I ask the Prime Minister whether the feeling of the House is not now quite obvious to him, and whether he will not, even at this hour, withdraw the Motion altogether?
The Eleven o'Clock Rule, as I said before, is to be suspended for this and other things. If there is any intention to take the opportunity of this Division to defeat the Bill altogether—very well; but we feel it is perfectly reasonable to ask the House to begin to-day the Committee stage of the Bill, and let us see how far we can get within a very reasonable time.
|Division No. 2.]||AYES.||[3.48 p.m.|
|Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir Francis Dyke||Despencer-Robertton, Major J. A. F.||Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas W. H.|
|Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel||Dickie, John P.||Iveagh, Countess of|
|Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.]||Doran, Edward||Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.)|
|Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G.||Drewe, Cedric||Jesson, Major Thomas E.|
|Albery, Irving James||Dugdale, Captain Thomas Lionel||Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)|
|Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent)||Duggan, Hubert John||Ker, J. Campbell|
|Apsley, Lord||Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)||Kerr, Hamilton W.|
|Aske, Sir Robert William||Eales, John Frederick||Kirkpatrick, William M.|
|Atholl, Duchess of||Edmondson, Major A. J.||Knight. Holford|
|Atkinson. Cyril||Elliot, Major Rt. Hon. Waiter E.||Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton|
|Baillie, Sir Adrian W. M.||Ellis. Sir R. Geoffrey||Lambert, Rt. Hon. George|
|Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley||Elmley, Viscount||Law, Sir Alfred|
|Bainlet, Lord||Entwistle, Cyril Fullard||Leckie, J. A.|
|Barrle, Sir Charles Coupar||Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare)||Lees-Jones, John|
|Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell||Erskine-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Blackpool)||Levy, Thomas|
|Beaumont, M. W. (Bucks., Aylesbury)||Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univ.)||Liddall, Walter S.|
|Beaumont, Hon. R.E.B. (Portsm'th,C.)||Evans, R. T. (Carmarthen)||Lindsay, Noel Ker|
|Belt, Sir Alfred L.||Falle, Sir Bertram G.||Llewellin, Major John J.|
|Benn, Sir Arthur Shirley||Fermoy, Lord||Llewellyn-Jones, Frederick|
|Bernays, Robert||Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst||Lloyd, Geoffrey|
|Blaker. Sir Reginald||Fleming. Edward Lascelles||Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hn. G. (Wd. G'n)|
|Blindell, James||Foot, Dingle (Dundee)||Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander|
|Borodale. Viscount||Forestier-Walker, Sir Leolin||Lyons, Abraham Montagu|
|Bossom, A. C.||Fox, Sir Gifford||MacAndrew, Lieut.-Col. C. G. (Partick)|
|Boulton, W. W.||Fraser. Captain Ian||MacAndrew. Capt. J. O. (Ayr)|
|Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.||Fremantle, Sir Francis||MacDonald, Rt. Hn. J. R. (Seaham)|
|Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough)||Gault, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton||McEwen, Captain J. H. F.|
|Brass, Captain Sir William||George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)||McKeag, William|
|Briant, Frank||Gibson, Charles Granville||McKie, John Hamilton|
|Briscoe, Capt. Richard George||Gledhill, Gilbert||Maclay, Hon. Joseph Paton|
|Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd,, Hexham)||Glossop, C. W. H.||McLean, Major Alan|
|Brown, Ernest (Leith)||Glucksteln, Louis Haile||McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)|
|Brown, Brig.-G en. H.C. (Berks., Newb'y)||Glyn, Major Ralph G. C.||Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I.|
|Browne, Captain A. C.||Goodman, Colonel Albert W,||Magnay, Thomas|
|Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.||Gower, Sir Robert||Maitland, Adam|
|Burgin, Dr. Edward Leslie||Graham, Sir F. Fergus (C'mb'rl'd, N.)||Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest|
|Burnett, John George||Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas||Mander, Geoffrey le M.|
|Cadogan, Hon. Edward||Graves, Marjorie||Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M.|
|Campbell, Edward Taswell (Bromley)||Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro'.W.)||Margesson, Capt. Henry David R.|
|Caporn, Arthur Cecil||Grimston, R. V.||Martin, Thomas B.|
|Carver, Major William H.||Gunston, Captain D. W.||Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John|
|Castlereagh, Viscount||Guy, J. C. Morrison||Mills, Sir Frederick (Leyton, E.)|
|Cayzer, Maj. Sir H. R. (P'rtsm'th, S.)||Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H.||Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)|
|Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)||Hall, Capt. W. D'Arcy (Brecon)||Mitchell, Harold P. (Br'tfd & Chisw'k)|
|Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston)||Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)||Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)|
|Chapman, Col. R. (Houghton-le-Spring)||Hamilton, Sir R. W.(Orkney & Zetl'nd)||Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale|
|Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.)||Hammersley, Samuel S.||Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.|
|Chorlton, Alan Ernest Leofric||Hanley, Dennis A.||Morris, John Patrick (Salford, N.)|
|Christle, James Archibald||Harbord, Arthur||Morris, Owen Temple (Cardiff, E.)|
|Clarke, Frank||Hartland, George A.||Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)|
|Clarry, Reginald George||Harvey, George (Lambeth, Kenningt'n)||Moss, Captain H. J.|
|Clayton, Dr. George C.||Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)||Muirhead, Major A. J.|
|Collins, Rt. Hon. Sir Godfrey||Haslam, Henry (Horncastle)||Munro, Patrick|
|Colman, N. C. D.||Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M.||Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.|
|Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J.||Hellgers, Captain F. F. A.||Nicholson. Godfrey (Morpeth)|
|Conant, R. J. E.||Heneage. Lieut-Colone[...] Arthur P.||Nunn, William|
|Cooke, Douglas||Herbert, Capt. S. (Abbey Division)||O'Donovan, Dr. William James|
|Cooper, A. Duff||Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller||Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G.A.|
|Copeland, Ida||Holdsworth, Herbert||Palmer, Francis Noel.|
|Courtauld, Major John Sewell||Hope, Capt. Hon. A. O. J. (Aston)||Patrick, Colin M.|
|Courthope, Colonel Sir Georga L.||Hore-Belisha, Leslie||Peake, Captain Osbert|
|Cranborne, Viscount||Hornby, Frank||Pearson, William G.|
|Craven-Ellis, William||Horobin, Ian M.||Perkins, Walter R. D.|
|Crooke, J. Smedley||Horsbrugh, Florence||Peters, Dr. Sidney John|
|Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro)||Howitt, Dr. Alfred B.||Petherick, M|
|Cross, R. H.||Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)||Peto, Geoffrey K. (W'verh'pt'n, Bilston)|
|Crossley, A. C.||Hudson, Robert Spear (Southport)||Pickering, Ernest H.|
|Curry, A. C.||Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries)||Potter, John|
|Davies, Ma]. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)||Hunter, Capt. M. J. (Brigg)||Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H.|
|Denman, Hon. R. D.||Hurd, Sir Percy||Pownall, Sir Assheton|
|Denville, Alfred||Hurst, Sir Gerald B.||Procter, Major Henry Adam|
|Pybus, Percy John||Scone, Lord||Turton, Robert Hugh|
|Raikes, Henry V. A. M.||Shepperson, Sir Ernest W.||Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey)|
|Ramsay, Alexander (W. Bromwich)||Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John||Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)|
|Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M. (Midlothian)||Sinclair, Ma). Rt. Hn. Sir A. (C'thness)||Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)|
|Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)||Skelton, Archibald Noel||Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)|
|Ramsden, E.||Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)||Watt, Captain George Steven H.|
|Rankin, Robert||Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine. C.)||Wells, Sydney Richard|
|Rea, Walter Russell||Smith-Carington, Neville W.||Weymouth, Viscount|
|Reid, Capt. A. Cunningham||Soper, Richard||White, Henry Graham|
|Reid, William Allan (Derby)||Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.||Whiteside, Borras Noel H.|
|Renwick, Major Gustav A.||Southby, Commander Archibald R. J.||Whyte, Jardine Bell|
|Roberts. Aled (Wrexham)||Spencer, Captain Richard A.||Wills, Wilfrid D.|
|Robinson, John Roland||Stanley, Lord (Lancaster, Fylde)||Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)|
|Rosbotham, S. T,||Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westmorland)||Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George|
|Host, Ronald D.||Stewart, William J.||Womersley, Walter James|
|Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)||Storey, Samuel||Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir H. Kingsley|
|Rothschild, James A. de||Strauss, Edward A.||Wood, Sir Murdoch McKenzie (Banff)|
|Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E. A.||Sueter. Rear-Admiral Murray F.||Worthington, Or. John V.|
|Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)||Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)||Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hillton (S'v'noaks)|
|Russell. Richard John (Eddisbury)||Thompson, Luke||Young, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.)|
|Rutherford, Sir John Hugo||Titchfield, Major the Marquess of|
|Salt, Edward W.||Todd, Capt. A. J. K. (B'wick-on-T.)||TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—|
|Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham)||Touche, Gordon Cosmo||Sir George Penny and Sir Victor|
|Savery, Samuel Servington||Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement||Warrender.|
|Attlee, Clement Richard||Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur||Maxton, lames|
|Banfield, John William||Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan)||Milner, Major James|
|Batey, Joseph||Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John||Nicholson, Rt. Hn. W. G. (Petersf'ld)|
|Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart||Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)||North, Captain Edward T.|
|Broadbent, Colonel John||Grundy, Thomas W.||Parkinson, John Allen|
|Buchanan, George||Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton)||Price, Gabriel|
|Cape, Thomas||Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil)||Ray, Sir William|
|Cautley, Sir Henry S.||Harris, Sir Percy||Remer, John R.|
|Chalmers, John Rutherford||Hicks, Ernest George||Salter, Dr. Alfred|
|Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer||Hutchison, W. D. (Essex, Roml'd)||Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart|
|Cocks, Frederick Seymour||John, William||Thorne, William James|
|Cove, William G.||Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)||Tinker, John Joseph|
|Cripps, Sir Stafford||Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)||Todd, A. L. S. (Kingswinford)|
|Crookshank, Col. C. de Windt (Bootle)||Kirk wood, David||Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon|
|Daggar, George||Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George||Wedgwood, Rt Hon. Josiah|
|Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)||Lawson, John James||Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)|
|Davison, Sir William Henry||Leonard, William||Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)|
|Dawson, Sir Philip||Logan, David Gilbert||Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)|
|Edwards, Charles||Lunn, William|
|Everard, W. Lindsay||McEntee, Valentine L.||TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—|
|Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)||Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)||Mr. Groves and Mr. G. Macdonald.|